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#31 Old 06-11-2005, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by remilard View Post

I think this was my original point, that means to prevent redistribution of media are developed because people illegally redistribute media.



If nobody did so, none of these changes would have been necessary.



Actually, your point seems to be that the media production industries are simply acting defensively. However, legal and technical "copy protection" has never been just about preventing illegal redistribution but about power and control in preventing some of the legal rights that consumers have in regards to IP. The MPAA didn't just oppose piracy in the Betamax suit, but sought to eliminate the entirely legal practice of using tapes to time-shift broadcast TV for personal use. Likewise, the RIAA didn't just oppose illegal concert tapes and dubbing, but personal mix tapes, transfers from phonorecords, and recording of radio shows. They were forced to accept these legitimate uses only reluctantly.



However, they are still extremely interested in shaping the legal and technical environment to effectively eliminate "far use." Cable television lobbyists are working against time-shifting digital video recorders. Textbooks frequently come with licenses that deny statutory fair use rights in the classroom, and publishers place hefty documentation demands on fair use.



The Kazaa case is not just about illegal file use, but establishing a precident that undermines the Betamax decision. If the Betamax decision is overturned, it opens up huge liability problems for people who produce any software that can be used to transfer data from computer to computer. The worries about DRM embedded in the hardware involve who gets to certify software to run on that platform, and for what cost.



It is not the case that publishers are acting defensively against a horde of bad people engaged in piracy. Publishers are acting aggressively to expand their rights at the expense of the rights of consumers, educators and students. They are not doing it because it was "made necessary" by a phantom loss of revenue due to piracy. They are doing it because they can gain revenue if they can create de facto, or de jure rules in the marketplace that reduce consumer rights and fair use.
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#32 Old 06-11-2005, 12:53 AM
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In my mind, as someone who is highly interested in legal uses of P2P technologies for multimedia, I can see a variety of bad scenarios. There could be a legal requirement that file transfer programs examine DR for each file transferred, raising the production costs and complexity of those programs. Increased risk of liability for writing P2P software would put development of technologies such at bittorrent out of the reach of many projects. A tax on legal uses to pay for the peceived illegal uses (as we have with audio-CDs and and audo-cassettes) would also kill legal exploration of P2P technologies. Increased threat of liability has certainly reduced one's ability to exercise legal fair use with photocopiers.



These are some of the reasons why I think that we need strong consumer and fair-use advocacy right now. I think it is possible that future actions for preventing piracy will end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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#33 Old 06-11-2005, 01:17 AM
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I'm going to have to agree with kirk. Right now, the DMCA is being used by numerous companies to prevent a variety of fair use activities. Basically, they design a DRM mechanism to prevent ripping music from a cd (for example). The DMCA makes it illegal to create or distribute copy protection circumvention technology, so it's illegal to circumvent their DRM despite the fact that you're only doing so to carry out a legal act (ripping the songs).



What kirk is describing is already going on; the legal circumvention and restriction of fair use. It's all in the DMCA.
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#34 Old 06-11-2005, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kirkjobsluder View Post

Actually, your point seems to be that the media production industries are simply acting defensively. However, legal and technical "copy protection" has never been just about preventing illegal redistribution but about power and control in preventing some of the legal rights that consumers have in regards to IP.



If we can assume these corporations are acting to maximize profits, how does restricting the legal rights of the customer create a profit, in and of itself?
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#35 Old 06-11-2005, 01:30 AM
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I'm going to have to agree with kirk. Right now, the DMCA is being used by numerous companies to prevent a variety of fair use activities. Basically, they design a DRM mechanism to prevent ripping music from a cd (for example). The DMCA makes it illegal to create or distribute copy protection circumvention technology, so it's illegal to circumvent their DRM despite the fact that you're only doing so to carry out a legal act (ripping the songs).



What kirk is describing is already going on; the legal circumvention and restriction of fair use. It's all in the DMCA.



I agree that fair use is being restricted, Kirk's argument is that it is being restricted for the sake of doing so, not in an effort to prevent redistribution.



I would argue that you are prevented from making personal copies only because you can make and distribute copies as easily as you can make personal copies, i.e. I am arguing that the entire motivation is to control distribution.
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#36 Old 06-11-2005, 02:27 AM
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I don't think it is because of 'piracy' (there's some propaganda for ya). But rather that they are actting to maximize profits as this is all that they care about, sony are really bad with it, the PSP for example, buy one copy of the movie on DVD & then buy another version for the PSP.



If restricting you means they can get more money, they'll do it, and unfortunately the government will help them.
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#37 Old 06-11-2005, 02:32 AM
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But rather that they are actting to maximize profits as this is all that they care about,



Correction 1: They are legally obligated to maximize profits subject to the law, it doesn't even matter if they care about it in the US



Correction 2: It is about piracy, from their POV minimizing privacy maximizes profits.
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#38 Old 06-11-2005, 03:02 AM
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So corporations have a legal duty to make as much profit as possible no matter how they go about it?
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#39 Old 06-11-2005, 10:47 AM
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Piracy is the same as shoplifting, only a hell of a less chance of getting caught.
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#40 Old 06-11-2005, 11:17 AM
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Piracy is the same as shoplifting, only a hell of a less chance of getting caught.



And more people will take you seriously if you concoct rationalizations for why it is okay.
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#41 Old 06-11-2005, 11:30 AM
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If we can assume these corporations are acting to maximize profits, how does restricting the legal rights of the customer create a profit, in and of itself?



Well, for example, of the quirks on IP law is that it provides certain liberties to consumers and educators. I can show a video to an audience of 200 people, provided that I use it in an "instructional" context and hold a discussion after the fact. I can, under "far use" photocopy short sections of books or magazine articles and distribute them.



Under current IP laws, the IP holder only gets the money I paid for the original. (Or nothing at all if I'm using a recording of cable or radio broadcast.) Under an environment hostile to fair use, IP holders stand to gain revenues that could easily exceed the phantom looses due to P2P piracy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by remilard View Post

I agree that fair use is being restricted, Kirk's argument is that it is being restricted for the sake of doing so, not in an effort to prevent redistribution.



No, this is not the argument. Your argument has been, that it's to prevent illegal distribution and just glossing over the fact that publishers have never been friendly to any kind of consumer rights in regards to their products. My argument is that fair use is being restricted in an effort to prevent all kinds of redistribution. This would include loaning a book to a friend, making a video recording of a TV show for later, selling your old media at a yard sale, and the liberal licensing of that media for educational purposes.
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#42 Old 06-11-2005, 04:42 PM
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My argument is that fair use is being restricted in an effort to prevent all kinds of redistribution. This would include loaning a book to a friend, making a video recording of a TV show for later, selling your old media at a yard sale, and the liberal licensing of that media for educational purposes.



None of these means of redistribution are limited by the various DVD formats and the SACD format. Loaning and reselling of ITMS or similar media is made very difficult because you have to loan or resell the device the media is on.



The problem I have with DVD/SACD is that I cannot (legally) copy the content (ever for SACD and when protected for DVD) to my computer for convenient playback in my home.
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#43 Old 06-11-2005, 06:34 PM
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Piracy is the same as shoplifting, only a hell of a less chance of getting caught.



It is not the same as shoplifting, you'll get a far far bigger punishment for 'piracy'.
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#44 Old 06-11-2005, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by remilard View Post

None of these means of redistribution are limited by the various DVD formats and the SACD format. Loaning and reselling of ITMS or similar media is made very difficult because you have to loan or resell the device the media is on.



The problem I have with DVD/SACD is that I cannot (legally) copy the content (ever for SACD and when protected for DVD) to my computer for convenient playback in my home.



So in other words, you're saying that they aren't done yet. However, I think we can agree that it is more or less the industry's avowed goal to restrict consumer freedom as much as possible, as my discussion of their usage (misusage) of the DMCA above shows.
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#45 Old 06-11-2005, 07:24 PM
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So in other words, you're saying that they aren't done yet. However, I think we can agree that it is more or less the industry's avowed goal to restrict consumer freedom as much as possible, as my discussion of their usage (misusage) of the DMCA above shows.



I disagree. I think their avowed goal is to maximize profits and they see restricting fair use as the best way to do so. If their motivations started with restricting fair use (i.e. they wanted to do so for no other reason) their behavior would not be rational.
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#46 Old 06-11-2005, 09:00 PM
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The distinction seems trivial to me, although you are obviously correct.
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#47 Old 06-11-2005, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Satyagraha View Post

It is not the same as shoplifting, you'll get a far far bigger punishment for 'piracy'.



"Depending on the offender's prior record, a conviction for shoplifting can mean a jail sentence up to five years and a fine of $10,000. In addition, a merchant can sue the shoplifter to recover the full value of the stolen goods, attorneys' fees, and court costs. "



In Illinois, they have similar signs up, but it's all based on the value of merchandise and prior record (under $150 isn't a felony, over $150 is, or a prior conviction will make it a felony).





However... taking into account that every time a software pirate "gives" a copy of the software (movie, cd, etc), it's probably considered a separate offense.... I think a few hundred-thousands of charges of "shoplifting" would get a person a pretty long prison time and fines.
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#48 Old 06-12-2005, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by remilard View Post

None of these means of redistribution are limited by the various DVD formats and the SACD format. Loaning and reselling of ITMS or similar media is made very difficult because you have to loan or resell the device the media is on.



As I outlined earlier, the issues involved go far beyond what encryption standards are used on DVDs.
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#49 Old 06-13-2005, 06:57 PM
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Blah, blah, blah...



Back to the topic at hand:



OS X does not need to be extensively rewritten. For the last five years, it has been living a "double life," remember? Now, you're far more geeked on this stuff than I am, but I'm under the impression that adjusting the OS to run on Intel is going to be fairly easy for Apple. If not, they did a good job putting on their game face to convince developers to start generating universal binaries.
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#50 Old 06-15-2005, 12:35 PM
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Well... AMD would still be around... and it'd be possible for those processors to be used also (basically... I'd think it'd turn "MAC" into an OS, not a computer).



one of the best things about macs in my opinion, other than OS X, is the way the hardware looks too. If Mac becomes just an OS, then it'll be running in any machine, and won't be nearly as elegant as it is now.
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#51 Old 06-15-2005, 01:14 PM
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one of the best things about macs in my opinion, other than OS X, is the way the hardware looks too. If Mac becomes just an OS, then it'll be running in any machine, and won't be nearly as elegant as it is now.



At least you admit you like the product because of the packaging.
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#52 Old 06-15-2005, 04:56 PM
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Packaging is more important than ever, at least from a sales standpoint.
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#53 Old 06-15-2005, 05:00 PM
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At least you admit you like the product because of the packaging.



Well, I figured that the x86 became a commodity a while back, and that was confirmed for me when I saw photos of the Alienware "Star Wars" vanity system. Aesthetics is a bit important to me, and certainly influenced my choice for SFF systems.
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#54 Old 06-15-2005, 06:07 PM
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Packaging is more important than ever, at least from a sales standpoint.



Say you are an office manager and you need to buy 300 desktop computers. Your bonus is based on expenses and is a significant portion of your total compensation. Now how important is packaging?



This is part of why the same few companies have all the big clients and are selling them all wintel machines.
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#55 Old 06-15-2005, 06:11 PM
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Well, I figured that the x86 became a commodity a while back, and that was confirmed for me when I saw photos of the Alienware "Star Wars" vanity system. Aesthetics is a bit important to me, and certainly influenced my choice for SFF systems.



Aesthetics is important to me too, and I own two apple products and like the way both of them look. OTOH I primarily bought them for other reasons. The mac mini is easily the quietest desktop computer under $1000 and the ipod, imo, is the best DAP by a slight margin.
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#56 Old 06-15-2005, 06:16 PM
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It really baffles me sometimes that success in the computer market is considered unique in that success is defined by creating a hegemony. I can't think of any other market in which this is the case.
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#57 Old 06-19-2005, 04:53 PM
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Blah, blah, blah...



Back to the topic at hand:



OS X does not need to be extensively rewritten. For the last five years, it has been living a "double life," remember? Now, you're far more geeked on this stuff than I am, but I'm under the impression that adjusting the OS to run on Intel is going to be fairly easy for Apple. If not, they did a good job putting on their game face to convince developers to start generating universal binaries.



i'm sure apple was ready when they announced the switch. they've got two choices basically: to have their own market, or to be part of a larger market. i'm thinking steve jobs is a pretty saavy guy. apple will be working hard to differentiate itself in the marketplace. processor function isn't a meaningful way to differentiate a computer in these days of high processor speed. it's in the interface, and now apple can focus resources to have a larger impact in the overall market and escape the diseconomy of being the lone vender off the industry platform. i'm willing to bet this will be seen as a wise move, in retrospect.



people won't be complaining about software compatibility. if i pay apple's premium price, i can still run programs in the larger marketplace.



now steve jobs can go after michael dell's market . beautiful.
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#58 Old 06-26-2005, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by epski View Post

Blah, blah, blah...



Back to the topic at hand:



OS X does not need to be extensively rewritten. For the last five years, it has been living a "double life," remember? Now, you're far more geeked on this stuff than I am, but I'm under the impression that adjusting the OS to run on Intel is going to be fairly easy for Apple. If not, they did a good job putting on their game face to convince developers to start generating universal binaries.



yep...my understanding is that it wont take much to swap it



dell also said they would sell OSX software for PCs if apple would allow them



i dont know how strongly apple feels about this but im guessing it would bring them the mega bucks....dell is gigantic
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#59 Old 06-26-2005, 11:29 AM
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i dont know how strongly apple feels about this but im guessing it would bring them the mega bucks....dell is gigantic



I don't think so. Deals with Dell to sell other operating systems have not worked well. Also, a large chunk of the "just works" goal is built around a radically different production model. Dell can offer low cost by playing the market to a larger degree. Apple sells its self on a high-quality matching of OS to its hardware engineering.



Personally, I'm waiting for the iPodling and the iSophoghaus.
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#60 Old 01-14-2011, 02:08 AM
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this is news to me
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