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#1 Old 07-02-2008, 10:15 AM
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I have a question based on something I noticed when I went to the beach with my older cousin and her 3 kids the other day. When we went, there were about 7-8 other families there (all fairly wealthy too)...no husbands until later in the day...mostly moms and their kids. I was the only adult who went in the water and played with all these kids for 6 hours.



Most of the moms were very uninterested in their kids and all were getting drunk...talking about upcoming adult parties where they can all get drunk...mentioning how they all got drunk like 4-5 times that week...my cousin and her husband drink a lot, probably 5 days a week (not always getting drunk tho)...most of the moms were complaining how it's hard having kids and how the kids are making them drink. Their language was very teen-like, talking about "hanging out", they kept bothering my cousin to hang out with them and get drunk on the beach all night...i just found it a little troubling since they ALL have little little kids. One mom made a crack when asked how many kids she has, she said "Just enough to really make me an alcoholic". I wanted to say "then why did you have them???"



Are most moms like this? It seems as though there are many stay at home moms who are a) unhappy and b) alcoholics. Most people in my family drink a few times a week too (not my parents though---they don't dirnk at all). All my aunts, uncles, cousins, etc all get boozed up regularly even thoguh they ALL have kids.



I always thought that me drinking 1-2 times a week was "a lot"...but apparently not.



Any thoughts on this? I am only 22 and hope that when I have kids, I don't act this way. I find it unhealthy, sad, and disturbing....
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#2 Old 07-02-2008, 10:39 AM
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I think you just stumbled upon one particularly ignorant group of moms, I wouldnt say most are like them. I do drink and I am a mother, but I believe it all has to do with being mature and responsible about it.

For a while I looked at it as me trying to juggle an unplanned child at a young age and wanting to still do things other young people are "doing". I have grown up alot since then. Now, I sometimes feel the same way towards other new mothers I see that are in my old shoes.
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#3 Old 07-02-2008, 10:47 AM
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These weren't new mothers...they were all about 40 something with 3-4 kids each.
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#4 Old 07-02-2008, 10:49 AM
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I think one can be a responsible parent and have a few drinks. The way they were talking is most likely exaggerated so to impress the crowd yknow. Don't take it heavily. Truly concerning alcoholic parents don't tend to brag about it like that nor get excited for parties where they can drink, they just drink or have their kids make them their drinks
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#5 Old 07-02-2008, 10:51 AM
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That is true...I didn't mean they were alcoholics like that. I just meant that their kids were unhappy because their parents had no interest. If they were paying attention to their kids and were drinking, then I wouldn't mind so much.
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#6 Old 07-02-2008, 10:58 AM
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This is definitely not the norm - but I know exactly what you are talking about because I have seen some of the same thing myself. I think it is a case of women not wanting to ackowledge their 'real life' responsibilities and refusing to grow up. They still want to be 'the popular girl'. I am a mom of a 13 yeard old step-daughter (I met my hubby when she was 2 and she has always lived with us full time) and I can tell you that I will have a glass of wine here and there, but I do not get 'hammered' in front of my kid. I like to have a good night out, like anyone else, but the fact of the matter is that I am not in high scool anymore, I have two jobs, a family and responsibilities that come before any desire I may have to party. I think its important to have a balanced life and make time for fun too, but it really makes me sad to think about what those moms are teaching their kids. If you could hear them talking about how their kids drive them to drink - then surely the kids can hear them say that, and although they may be too young to understand what that means now, just think of the crappy self esteem they are going to have when they are older... Blah.



This kind of thing makes me so sad.
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#7 Old 07-02-2008, 11:00 AM
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I am totally cool with older women married or not who want to continually party----but then don't have kids. No one is making you have kids, you have the choice. That is why it bothers me---having kids is a CHOICE. Don't choose that path if you don't like what it will bring you...and everyone knows how hard and time consuming it is to have kids...everyone knows that, so if you don't want that responsibility, don't take it on.



And I am totally cool with moms who want to have fun every now and then---I drink once or twice a week and probably won't stop doing it once in a while when I have kids...but these moms said it is constant. They kept calling themselves "lushes" and drinking at 12 noon and my cousin said they go to the beach and do that everyday.
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#8 Old 07-02-2008, 12:39 PM
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I see nothing wrong with drinking and letting loose once in awhile, but I think that it needs to be done responsibly....not in front of your kids. I don't drink much...heck haven't had a drink in about a year or so, lol, and was never a big partier, but I like to sit back with friends and just BS. I have a 3 year old, but never would i say such horrible things in front of him. Children internalise a lot, even if it seems they aren't listening. These women sound very unhappy with their choices in life and unfortunately others are suffering because of it. I also agree that having children is a choice. If you don't want to 'grow up', don't have kids. Being a parent is about taking care of others sometimes before yourself. It's sad that these mothers have given you such a bad impression, but rest assured that not all women are like this...it just sounds like a bad group.
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#9 Old 07-02-2008, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CountessKerouac View Post

I am totally cool with older women married or not who want to continually party----but then don't have kids. No one is making you have kids, you have the choice. That is why it bothers me---having kids is a CHOICE. Don't choose that path if you don't like what it will bring you...and everyone knows how hard and time consuming it is to have kids...everyone knows that, so if you don't want that responsibility, don't take it on.



And I am totally cool with moms who want to have fun every now and then---I drink once or twice a week and probably won't stop doing it once in a while when I have kids...but these moms said it is constant. They kept calling themselves "lushes" and drinking at 12 noon and my cousin said they go to the beach and do that everyday.





I totally agree with you on this. I've seen it ALOT and know way too many people like this. Its something that really gets to me. I've had to distance myself from certain friends because I just can't tolerate to watch these situations. Whats worse is when both parents are like this.





I'm sorry but my own belief is when you spend more time out with friends drinking/at the bar 6 nights a week instead of home taking care of your kids then you shouldn't be a parent. Once in awhile is fine. Going out on the weekend or whatever but when its a daily thing ....soo not cool at all.
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#10 Old 07-02-2008, 02:47 PM
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If you don't want to 'grow up', don't have kids. Being a parent is about taking care of others sometimes before yourself. It's sad that these mothers have given you such a bad impression, but rest assured that not all women are like this...it just sounds like a bad group.







If you want to raise mature and responsible kids, then you have to be a mature and responsible example.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#11 Old 07-02-2008, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CountessKerouac View Post

That is why it bothers me---having kids is a CHOICE. Don't choose that path if you don't like what it will bring you...and everyone knows how hard and time consuming it is to have kids...everyone knows that, so if you don't want that responsibility, don't take it on.



Not everyone chooses to have kids, not really. And if they didn't really choose I can understand them not wanting to give up their whole lifestyle. Many parents are not good parents by other people's standards but that's just the way it is.
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#12 Old 07-02-2008, 06:30 PM
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Well, my mom is an alcoholic, but nothing like that.



She has just stayed home to drink for the last 18 or 19 years. No socializing on the beach getting drunk with friends for her.

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#13 Old 07-02-2008, 07:06 PM
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Aw, I'm sorry Synergy.
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#14 Old 07-02-2008, 08:40 PM
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This is NOT the norm.



My oldest is 17 and in all the years of taking her and her sisters to the beach/park/pool/other public places, I have NEVER seen Moms who acted this way in public around their children. I am sure there are groups or communities of Moms who commiserate this way, probably feeding off each others stories with a "my kids are worse than your kids" sort of mentality. It seems VERY unhealthy (and juvenile) to behave that way around your kids.



That said; other Moms and I will go out to a bar or some adult's-only establishment and drink, and even vent a LITLE about the trials and tribulations of motherhood... just the same as we gripe about our spouses, jobs, periods, haircuts, diets or in-laws... It's just a way to let off a little steam.
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#15 Old 07-20-2008, 08:25 PM
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I am a mom and organize a playgroup.. and I've gotta say I've never seen behavior like that. I like to drink, but do it responsibly (and definitely not all the time). Life changes when you become a parent and it seems like these moms you've mentioned are clinging on to some long-gone party days. I feel for those kids..
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#16 Old 07-27-2008, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by CountessKerouac View Post

I have a question based on something I noticed when I went to the beach with my older cousin and her 3 kids the other day. When we went, there were about 7-8 other families there (all fairly wealthy too)...no husbands until later in the day...mostly moms and their kids. I was the only adult who went in the water and played with all these kids for 6 hours.



Most of the moms were very uninterested in their kids and all were getting drunk...talking about upcoming adult parties where they can all get drunk...mentioning how they all got drunk like 4-5 times that week...my cousin and her husband drink a lot, probably 5 days a week (not always getting drunk tho)...most of the moms were complaining how it's hard having kids and how the kids are making them drink. Their language was very teen-like, talking about "hanging out", they kept bothering my cousin to hang out with them and get drunk on the beach all night...i just found it a little troubling since they ALL have little little kids. One mom made a crack when asked how many kids she has, she said "Just enough to really make me an alcoholic". I wanted to say "then why did you have them???"



Are most moms like this? It seems as though there are many stay at home moms who are a) unhappy and b) alcoholics. Most people in my family drink a few times a week too (not my parents though---they don't dirnk at all). All my aunts, uncles, cousins, etc all get boozed up regularly even thoguh they ALL have kids.



I always thought that me drinking 1-2 times a week was "a lot"...but apparently not.



Any thoughts on this? I am only 22 and hope that when I have kids, I don't act this way. I find it unhealthy, sad, and disturbing....



My mum drinks everynight (not to the point of getting drunk everynight, though) and she's done this since before I was born. However, she in no way blames her drinking on me and for those parents to say it's the kids fault that they drink is completely unacceptable!

I know of a lot of upper class mothers who don't seem to take much interest in their kids. I'm not stereotyping against the wealthy, however, they do seem less inclined to actually play with their kids from what i've seen.



CountessKerouac, if you don't want to act this way to your (future) kids you don't have to. We all have a choice in how we behave.
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#17 Old 07-27-2008, 10:45 AM
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Not everyone chooses to have kids, not really. And if they didn't really choose I can understand them not wanting to give up their whole lifestyle.



How do you figure that people in the US who have kids were forced -or "didn't really choose" - to have them?

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#18 Old 07-27-2008, 05:59 PM
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there are a lot of "juvenile" adults out there, to be honest.



i am surprised when my 40 and 50 something friends tell me about their drunken parties. it's so weird to me that anyone would do that at that age.



but i do think that there is a culture of it. my father's side of the family loves to party. i think they throw a party every weekend or at least go to two or more parties a week. they drink at these parties, sometimes to excess (say at least once a week to excess).



they think it's both fun and funny to do it and to talk about it. i find it boring and childish myself. to me, it's very different than a party with a few drinks, or having a drink or two in the evening with friends or dinner or what have you.



my cousins (who are about my age) grew up in this sort of environment, and this is how they and their partners behave. while i'm the first to have a baby, the second baby is soon to follow (my cousin is trying to get pregnant). i do not anticipate that they will stop partying when the baby comes.



in fact, just as my counsins were raised at beach parties, back yard parties, and what not--with people drinking to excess around them, with some people drinking moderately, and with their parents getting drunk for fun about once a week--i think that their own children will be raised similarly.



do i think it's problematic? yes, i do when you're talking about pools and oceans and lakes around--and a general lack of sobriety and watchfulness. but, i'll also note that, in general, someone is paying attention in some way (having only a few drinks, for instance).



when i talked to my 40-something friend about her experiences, she mentioned that they would often rotate who got to get drunk and who was staying sober to keep an eye on the kids (and by sober, they mean 1-2 beers or glasses of wine, and water or soda otherwise). so, it was prearranged by them.



according to my aunt, it's pretty much the same with that side of the family as well--there's an arrangement as to who will watch the kids.



but those kids do grow up to do the same thing. i mean, heck, my 40 and 50 something friends all have teens. they provide the alcohol to those teens. they think it's normal, healthy, acceptable, whatever. their teens get drunk, that's ok. they encourage them to only do that occassionally, and otherwise to 'drink responsibly.'



i don't get it myself, but whatever floats someone's boat.
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#19 Old 07-28-2008, 06:32 AM
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How do you figure that people in the US who have kids were forced -or "didn't really choose" - to have them?



I did not say "forced", I said "Not everyone chooses to have kids, not really." - as evident in the very quote you used.



If a women becomes accidentally pregnant she has not specifically chosen to have children, yet if she is anti-abortion, and perhaps even anti-adoption, she will go ahead and have her baby - she will suffer the consequences as it were.



While she has choices, I don't think anyone would say she outright "chose" to have that child as that would imply an intended pregnancy.



Those who think abortion is a sin, or giving away children results in being outcast from their family, do not have the same real choices as others.
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#20 Old 07-28-2008, 11:32 AM
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I'm pushing 40 (less than half a year away) and I'm not above having the occasional Friday night bottle of beer with pizza, but the description in the original post is atrocious. Those aren't moms, those are haggy lot lizards that made their way to the waterfront. If I weren't so kindhearted, I'd call for revocation of all their mom cards. Maybe I'm just jaded because I'm still married to the first guy I married 21 years ago, or maybe it's because I really love my kid and want success for her.

What if one of those kids in that original post heard their oh-so-loving-mommy say that crap about them? Idiots.
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#21 Old 07-28-2008, 04:03 PM
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I did not say "forced", I said "Not everyone chooses to have kids, not really." - as evident in the very quote you used.



If a women becomes accidentally pregnant she has not specifically chosen to have children, yet if she is anti-abortion, and perhaps even anti-adoption, she will go ahead and have her baby - she will suffer the consequences as it were.



While she has choices, I don't think anyone would say she outright "chose" to have that child as that would imply an intended pregnancy.



Those who think abortion is a sin, or giving away children results in being outcast from their family, do not have the same real choices as others.



I'll bet that "accidental pregnancy" comes from a rape or one of those ubuiquitous birth control failures too I'm sure if abortion or adopting out children is a terrible sin for someone, the choice to spread one's legs in the first place was a sin too - but the person was willing to transgress that one. Being anti-abortion or anti-adoption (!) is a real choice. If one doesn't wish to be a mother in the US, one does not have to be, unless one chooses to. "Lack of choice" is no excuse for poor parenting in the US.

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#22 Old 07-28-2008, 05:01 PM
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I'll bet that "accidental pregnancy" comes from a rape or one of those ubuiquitous birth control failures too

Why the quotes around "accidental pregnancy"? Do you really know of no one who has become accidentally pregnant? Or do you have no sympathy for the many women who have used the pill correctly and still fall pregnant?



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I'm sure if abortion or adopting out children is a terrible sin for someone, the choice to spread one's legs in the first place was a sin too - but the person was willing to transgress that one.

"spread one's legs"? Is there any need to be so vulgar? There are many people who do not see having sex as wrong but don't believe in abortion, either for just themselves or in general. Additionally, many women become pregnant without meaning to but would never consider adoption.



Not everyone becomes the perfect parent as soon as their child comes along.



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Being anti-abortion or anti-adoption (!) is a real choice.

I wouldn't say ethical beliefs are a choice at all. I believe eating animals is wrong, I cannot decided to choose to believe that eating animals is right. Neither can someone who believes abortion or adoption is wrong suddenly choose to believe they are right.





Really though I don't see why you have to be snide to those who experience different issues than yourself. I see nothing wrong with someone being pro-life regarding their own practise yet engaging in as safe sex as they can.



I'm not going to tell women that they can't have sex because if they do, they always have the choice to just get rid of their baby. Not all pro-life people are anti-sex, and I don't agree that anyone should be anti-sex.



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"Lack of choice" is no excuse for poor parenting in the US.

When did I say it was? I was commenting on how I understand things to be the way they are, not excusing the women for being potentially lesser parents.
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#23 Old 07-28-2008, 05:37 PM
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I'm not going to tell women that they can't have sex because if they do, they always have the choice to just get rid of their baby. Not all pro-life people are anti-sex, and I don't agree that anyone should be anti-sex.



Sure. They can have as much sex as they want, but unless they're mentally incapacitated and don't know that sex can result in a baby, they're making the choice to potentially deal with being a parent, giving up the child, or terminating (although generally - not always - using birth control properly will prevent the issue). Those are "real" choices, and I think it's patronizing to females as well as disastrous for children to make excuses that mitigate the responsibility for those real choices.



And then maybe someday if people can take responsibility for their own fertility, they can deal with the responsibility of having pets that don't overbreed such that 6+ million per year are killed in shelters.

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#24 Old 07-28-2008, 09:49 PM
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I'm a (just about) 22-year-old mother. I drink rather infrequently. But I guess the past week doesn't show that. But before this past week, I drank a month and a half prior. And I don't always get drunk - in fact, I rarely get drunk.



Also, I ONLY drink to excess when my daughter is not around. If she is around I may have a couple glasses of wine, or 1-2 cocktails or beers. But never enough to feel anything.



So, being the mother of an 18-month-old, as stressful as it can be, doesn't drive me to drinking.



But then again, she IS starting to throw tantrums.
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#25 Old 07-29-2008, 04:55 AM
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Those are "real" choices, and I think it's patronizing to females as well as disastrous for children to make excuses that mitigate the responsibility for those real choices.



And I disagree - both on the choices issue and it being an excuse
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#26 Old 07-29-2008, 01:21 PM
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So, being the mother of an 18-month-old, as stressful as it can be, doesn't drive me to drinking.





That'll happen when she's a teenager.
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#27 Old 07-29-2008, 01:27 PM
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^^ sure nuff
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#28 Old 07-29-2008, 04:26 PM
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That'll happen when she's a teenager.







---



in regards to the original post... yeah, I notice that quite a bit in people I know where I'm from. drives me nuts.
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#29 Old 07-29-2008, 10:18 PM
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The well-being of an innocent child > Social stigma





There's no excuse for toting along a kid you don't actually want in the US. There are thousands of couples who can't have children, desperate to adopt. If you keep a child, knowing you aren't willing to love and care for it as it deserves, because you don't want your family to judge or shun you, you are truly morally bankrupt. And if a family would shun their own for wanting the best for their child, what are they worth?
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#30 Old 07-30-2008, 11:00 AM
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i agree with the idea that if one chooses to have sex, then one is choosing the possibility of pregnancy. with this, they must think about the possibility of outcomes as well.



this does not mean, though, that those pregnancies are not "accidental." if a person is using BC properly and does become pregnant, then it is accidental. they were striving to avoid pregnancy by using BC.



so, i do not see any reason why people would be so harshly judged for an accidental pregnancy.



of course, whether a pregnancy is accidental or not, the individual must take responsibility for it and then choose what is best for themselves and the child. this, of course, also has to fit in with their ethical considerations and personal circumstances.



since we really cannot know the extent of another's circumstances, it seems rather silly to judge them so harshly based on any number of assumptions.
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