Dating Issues - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-01-2003, 10:32 PM
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Hey there is this guy who I really love but the problem is that he lives in another country. and I know my parents wont approve if I go there to live with him if we get married. But next year i will be 18 so I can be able to make my own decisions and get my own life. I want to prove to them I'm responsible though. For some reason they keep trying to spy on me. and I would tell them when its the right time but nows not. i am very serious of our relationship and so is he. I'm ready to put my past behind me and start looking to the future. I was going to visit my family every Christmas and so we could still keep in touch and i could call everyday. I am very confused if I should follow my dream or just not hurt my parents. Its only a year until i turn 18 and I need to get my own life and everything. I feel like a hampster stuck in a cage when I am at home. I need some advice. My cousins says I should go with what I want to do. But I just dont know.
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#2 Old 06-01-2003, 10:59 PM
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Do what you want to do but don't close doors behind you. If it doesn't work out with him (not saying it won't but anything is possible) you don't want to have alienated your family. Good luck!
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#3 Old 06-01-2003, 11:19 PM
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Why are you in such a rush to marry him? Is it because marriage with him offers an escape from your parents and a means of showing the world how you can make decisions on your own?



I can tell you why they are spying on you. They see their 17 year old daughter wanting to marry someone straight out of high school. That raises red flags for most parents.



As to looking into your future...what other things are you looking to, other then this person?
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#4 Old 06-02-2003, 12:14 AM
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I must tell you, that rushing into anything, and hurting the parents is a very bad thing to do. I think you should visit the country he is at, and see what you can do with your life over there before making any serious plans.



You do not want to hurt your parents in any way, cause it is your parents that will help you out when things are going at their worst in life.



Visit first, make plans for you... and go from there.



Never plan your life around someone else's.
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#5 Old 06-02-2003, 12:25 AM
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It all depends on what this guy is like. You haven't told us anything at all about him. Not a thing. There is no way for me to tell if marrying him and living with him is a good idea or not. How am i, or anyone else, supposed to know? The fact that you love him does not give us any information as to whether marrying and living with him would be a good idea. Neither does the fact that both of you are serious about your relationship.



If you feel confused, I would say don't make any decisions until you get everything sorted out and are no longer confused.
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#6 Old 06-02-2003, 12:33 AM
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I'm also confused as to why you, in the title of this thread your refer to "dating" issues????? But in the body of the thread, you are talking about marrying and living with someone -- something entirely different than dating someone. I sense a "freudian slip," perhaps, in the choice of words for the title.
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#7 Old 06-02-2003, 01:44 AM
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Don't be in a rush LC. It's still a year away even if you decide to go through with it. And if you have a good family whatever you do don't leave things on bad terms!



You could always bring him here for us to meet.

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#8 Old 06-02-2003, 02:43 AM
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"the problem is that he lives in another country. "



That is really the problem that your parents have, with you marrying him -- that he lives in another country?



I don't know. It is common for parents to not want their children to marry outside their religion, or certain cultural groups, or to object to specific individuals, but for parents who live in Indiana -- it isn't common for US parents to have a problem with their children marrying people who live outside the United States. It is usually religion or ethnicity that is the problem, not nationality, when we are talking about parents who are United Staters.



Is it just distance - your parents don't want you living far away? Usually parents put aside this objection, if the person is the kind of person they want for their child.



The more I read about your problem LC, the more deprived I feel as to whether I really have relevant information about it.
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#9 Old 06-02-2003, 02:46 AM
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Ok...let's ask "the" question...



How do you know a man in another country?
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#10 Old 06-02-2003, 03:01 AM
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"How do you know a man in another country?" ask kristadb.



I suppose that, despite her youth, LC could simply be well travelled. Perhaps her company sends her on business trips.
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#11 Old 06-02-2003, 03:06 AM
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She is Seventeen.. right? What travel business would she have...
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#12 Old 06-02-2003, 03:13 AM
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OK, I'll be more direct to the point then, since Soilman missed what I was trying to hint at...



Is this a person you met online?

Is this a person you've met in person?

Is this a person your parents have met?

Is this a person you have spent more time with then apart from?

Is this a person you have had face to face conversations with for more then 50% of your conversations?
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#13 Old 06-02-2003, 03:16 AM
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Muzicfan writes "She is Seventeen.. right? What travel business would she have.."



Seems like unlikely she would have been making many business trips to foreign lands, but it wouldn't be it absolutely, completely outside the range of possibility, and maybe, just maybe, that's how lc met this man.



No, kristadb, I knew exactly what you were trying to hint at.
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#14 Old 06-02-2003, 03:46 AM
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Come LC, split the beans for us
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#15 Old 06-02-2003, 04:39 AM
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Very good questions Krista!

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#16 Old 06-02-2003, 09:43 AM
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I will explain more later because I have to leave soon. But sorry for making you guys confused.



The problem is where he lives. Its too far and I could hardly see my family. and to think if things work out my sister will only be 13 when I leave. My parents are looking into colleges for me so I have to make my decision soon. But not too soon. I need time to think.



To answer the questions I have met him online. I was thinking about if things work out then I can have him talk to my parents on the phone or something. His grandpa was from India and he was born in England and lived there for 6 years then they moved to Saudia Arabia and he lives there now. He says its not that he doesnt want to come to the USA but he can't. And I really do not mind going there. Only I don't like to be far from my family. It would be hard for us to keep in touch. Plus my dad said people that get married to someone there and live there sometimes cannot come back to the USA and what if I want to return??? He is 23 and is a medical student. Both of us share similiar interests. Also we have the same views on life and our dreams and what we want to be after school is even similiar. I don't think anyone in my family would have a problem with him because hes really a nice and caring guy and I love him They just would have a problem with me being so far away. And as for college the reason its a problem is because I am debating on whether to go study there or here.



So my problem is should I do what I want to do after I turn 18 or 21 or should I do what everyone else wants me to do. I really love this guy and don't want to lose him but I want whats best for him and maybe its better if he finds someone else. No matter how much I would hate to lose him maybe breaking up is a better idea. I can either go there when im older or have to break up with him. I may have only a year to decide where I go to college there or here.
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#17 Old 06-02-2003, 10:00 AM
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Let's not jump to conclusions and envision bad scenarios. Maybe LC met him when he visited Indiana; perhaps he was a foreign exchange student.
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#18 Old 06-02-2003, 08:02 PM
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I've seen a lot of threads about dating lately, so I thought I'd post this site a friend of mine from work uses:



http://www.veggiedate.org
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#19 Old 06-02-2003, 08:52 PM
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LC,



What I'm about to say is blunt and direct. You will not like what I'm about to say.



Let's put aside all the culture shock issues you possibly would experience in Saudi Arabia. At 17, you are involved in a pen and phone relationship with a 23 year old man in another country. This is a man that you have not met (or barely have so).



<insert the "but I know him soooo well" "I love him sooo much" "We are soooo much alike" comments>



For all the people that say and feel the exact same things that you are saying right now, the bloom on the rose faded after a couple months of marriage. I know a number of people who have been involved in internet relationships and I only know *1* couple that don't cite the day they met as the worse day of their lives. (And, I might add, that couple would have met anyways. It ended up that her brother worked in the same company and he got her a job there.) Right now, I listed 37 people in my head that I know who were in exactly the same position as you at some point. A number of them moved great distances and regreted it since.



<insert but we wouldn't be like that, we love each other>



Let's look at this a different way, then. Your first message gave away a lot. You want to do anything to get away from living at home. You want to exert your individuality and your independence. You want to show them you are an adult. You want to show everyone you are grown up and can make your own decisions.



I do believe everyone should do what is best for them, but it sounds like you haven't thought this through to the end. Think about a few things...



1. What happens if you don't like Saudi Arabia? (the weather, the food, the sand, the cities, the apartments?)

2. Why can't he come to the US?

3. How will both of you live?

4. Will you be able to work there or will you have to rely on his money and your parents?

5. Living together at first is always hard. Are you ready for the stress of living together without knowing each other face to face, on top of being alone, being in a new country and without the support of your parents a $1 phone call away?

6. What happens if it doesn't work out? You'll be alone in a unfamilar country, with no friends and no money. What would you do? Where would you go?

7. Who will pay for your education?

8. Why is it important for you to run away and get married so fast?



You should do what is best for you. But, before you think marrying this man is the best thing, really think about it.
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#20 Old 06-02-2003, 09:09 PM
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These are some questions I have. LC, we care about you and would rather ask you the hard stuff now and get it worked through while you're with us than have it come up later, much bigger.



How much do you know about Saudi Arabian culture? Would you be adequately prepared for the culture shock? Are you prepared to potentially live in a war zone?



As far as religious beliefs, does his spirituality expect women to wear certain kinds of all-covering clothing and walk behind men in public places? Would you be willing to do that, if need be? Even worse, is it considered normal by him for a husband to beat his wife and children? I know, those are extreme examples, but I think you have to know him well enough to discount the possibility.



How accomodating will he be for your vegetarianism? How important an issue to you is that?



And why exactly can't he come to the US? Is it because he wants to finish medical school at the school where he is?

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#21 Old 06-02-2003, 09:40 PM
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Since the fellow in question is from India and lived in Britain for a while, I made the large assumption that he didn't follow traditional Saudi culture.



Oh! Before I forget, 2 Qatar university pals (twin sisters) used to tell everyone this, so I'll say it for them...Islam doesn't require all these rules; the culture does. Even if *he* doesn't believe in these requirements, the culture of the area may force it upon you.



Are you prepared for the local customs which, depending on the location, may require you to cover up in public, not be able to travel w/o a male companion, etc. I realize that some areas are more strict then others, but these are serious things to consider.
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#22 Old 06-02-2003, 11:57 PM
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I certainly don't know this to be the case for all men who live in Saudi Arabia, I don't want to imply that. But I want to point out a possible scenario, and ask how you would deal with it.



My mother knows a woman who married a man from the Saudi Arabia and moved there with him. As soon as she got there, he totally changed. He bossed her around, abused her, made her life hell. There was nothing any police or anyone would do to help her. She had no money. No friends, didn't know the language. Somehow, she figured out a way to escape back to the US. If she had had children, she would have had to leave without them or maybe not leave at all. Because of Saudi laws



Point is, Other countries do not have the same protections as what you are used to. Even in the US it is very risky to marry someone you haven't spent much time with in person. Even in the US, it is risky to marry a man and have no money and/or job history and/or education of your own. Even in the US, it is risky for a 17 year old to marry a man much more knowledgable and mature than her.



But you want to do all these things where you may have very few legal protections? Not speak the language? Where people hate Americans? Where you have no friends or social support? Where you are depressed from culture shock?



Don't think that you have to decide if you should just do what everyone else wants you to do versus what you want to do. Choose what is honestly the smart, thought out, and best thing for you regardless if everyone else agrees. And Don't worry about him. Do what you won't regret doing a 3, 5, 10 etc. years from now. It's not about showing up your parents, it's about your own good. Looking out for that is the only way to earn anyone's respect.
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#23 Old 06-03-2003, 12:05 AM
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Or how about this story:

Quote:
Against Their Will

Americans Held in Saudi Arabia by Saudi Family Members







W A S H I N G T O N, June 15 For two years, Alexandria Davis says, she was held captive in Saudi Arabia.



"I was locked in the house. I was not [allowed to] talk to anybody because [my father] was afraid that I would, you know, contact an American woman or or try and call my mom," Alexandria said.

Alexandria's American mother, Miriam Hernandez-Davis, says she was powerless to get her daughter back after her Saudi ex-husband took the girl to his homeland.



"In that country, I really had no recourse. I couldn't even go there to visit. I couldn't see her, and I couldn't get her out even though she was an American citizen."



Under Saudi law, a woman cannot leave the country without the permission of her husband, father or brother.



The House Government Reform Committee held a hearing Wednesday to look into the recurring problem of the abduction of American children to Saudi Arabia.



I Would Rather Die Than Stay Here



Alexandria visited with her father and his family in Saudia Arabia every summer, but the year she turned 11, she says her father told her he wanted to extend her visit.



"When I asked him, that I wanted to start school and go back home, he told me to shut up, he started beating me, and he completely changed and flipped out on me. Out of nowhere," Alexandria said on ABCNEWS' Good Morning America on Thursday.



Eventually, she was able to call her mother and tell her of the father's abuse. The House committee heard a recording of that call.



"You should have seen the look in his eyes. I don't know what's wrong with him. I can't stay here anymore. I would rather die than stay here," Alexandria is heard saying.



Alexandria's mother says she paid $180,000 to smuggle her daughter out two years after the girl was forced to stay.



Emotional Words on the Hill



The State Department says there are 46 cases, in addition to Alexandria's, in which more than 90 U.S. citizens are being held in Saudi Arabia.



Mothers and grandmothers of some of these other victims provided emotional testimony before the House panel.



"I came here today to plead for my daughter and my granddaughter's life," said Ethel Stowers, whose two grandchildren are being held by their Saudi father.



In videotaped testimony, Stowers' daughter, Monica, broke down in tears as she described how U.S. Marine guards evicted her from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh when she asked for help getting her two children out of the country in 1990. Saudi authorities then arrested her and handed the children back to the father, Nizar Radwan.



"It's like a horror picture," Monica said, then began weeping.



"Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian state where my daughters are locked up, wrapped up and shut up," Patricia Roush proclaimed. Roush said she's seen her two daughters only once, for two hours, since her husband, Khaled Gheshayan, abducted them to Saudi Arabia in 1986.



At the conclusion of the hearings, Ethel Stowers spoke for all of the women yearning for their children, when through tears she pleaded, "Can anyone tell me why they can't do something for our children? Please help our children."



Start Doing Something



Problems with the custody of American children are not confined to Saudi Arabia's borders. The State Department says there are more than 1,000 children who have been taken overseas and not allowed to return, most of them in Western Europe.



State Department officials say it is U.S. policy in all custody cases to handle them under local law.



Saudi courts almost always favor Saudi fathers in child custody cases involving non-Saudi mothers.



"I don't understand why we have to abide by their law and they can't abide by our law. If these families get divorced in the United States, and the custody orders are issued in the United States, then they should abide by our laws," Hernandez-Davis, Alexandria's mother, said on Good Morning America.



Committee Chairman Dan Burton, R-Ind., called on President Bush for his help on the Saudi cases.



"We will not let this rest," Burton said Wednesday. "We will continue to push. I promise you as long as I am chairman, we'll do everything we can to get this resolved."



As long as the United States needs Saudi assistance in the war on terrorism, though, Middle East analysts say Washington is unlikely to get tough with Saudi Arabia on this issue.



That's no comfort to women who are desperate to get their children back.



"They are American citizens," Hernandez-Davis said on Good Morning America. "The government needs to start doing something about it now."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/D...gs_020614.html
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#24 Old 06-03-2003, 08:11 AM
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Indeed LC, from what I understand, it is much harder to get divorced in Saudi Arabia than it is in the US, or even get separated. And adultry may be subject to capital punishment.



Basicly, they take the idea of husband and wife more seriously in Saudi Arabia than they do in the US. The wife's relationship to a husband, is more like the relationship of farm animal's or a pet's to their owner usually is, in the US, than it is like the wife-husband relationship in the US.



From what I understand, divorces and separations are one-sided. That is, a husband can sue for divorce, or intiate a separation, but a wife can't. If you want to go somewhere that has a government is clearly against equal rights for women and men, go to Saudi Arabia.
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#25 Old 06-03-2003, 08:38 PM
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yeah I was thinking about some of the things you guys mentioned. This is not a matter of me trying to show everyone I can do what I want and just escape home. I just love him. and you know how you can tell when you met a good friend on Veggieboards for instance? Thats how I know hes a good guy only I have talked to him alot. So he did call me his fiance but before I make my final decision I am taking into consdieration some of these things. I think that I would not follow their culture but just wear my regular clothes and etc. I know how strict they are there compared to here but I don't care about anyone else except him. thats the only reason I am going there I don't care if other people there look at me funny. Well I would continue to get my education and he said he would wait until that long if i can not study there.



Thanks for the advice
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#26 Old 06-03-2003, 09:19 PM
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LC, it isn't your choice once you are there. In most areas, you will be beaten on the streets, arrested and stalked for not following their traditions. Read up on the treatment of female US soldiers in Saudi Arabia.



There is an attraction with a person that comes from face-to-face meeting. There are habits, personal hygiene, verbal expression, clothing, touch...these are all things important to the development of love. I'm sure you do love him. The question is - are you in love with who is really is, or who you think he is.



Move away from home and go to a unviersity in the US. If you want to go to a different country, come to Canada. Meet new people, try new things, be an independent woman before you commit yourself for life to a man you do not know.
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#27 Old 06-03-2003, 10:12 PM
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From one 17 year old girl to another - Hon, I don't wanna offend you, but I'll be blunt - Forget about him. You're playing with fire here. Go to the mall, get a smoothie, buy a 28 dollar shirt. Be a kid while you can. You're not an adult yet. Embrace this time, if you don't, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. You have plenty of time to get married! What if you go ever there and marry this guy and he treats you like dirt? Who are you going to turn to in a strange country? What if you can't get in contact with your parents? You really need to think about these things, and forget all about that 'love conquers all' garbage. Marriage and love are wonderful, but they take work, maturity, and tons of dedication. Are you ready for that? Really, really ready for that? Please think before you do something you'll regret.



Good luck!
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#28 Old 06-04-2003, 01:31 AM
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Wow. Luckie Charms....I just scanned a few of the most recent posts and I'm already really afraid for you. Saudi Arabia ranks as one of the worst countries in its treatment of women. Meeting a man you don't know? Come on, please! Watch out for yourself. You just never know how it is in real life. I've been faced with the marriage question before and I was so tempted to do it. I almost did. I loved him like mad. I thought I'd die without him. But then I finally realized that he was really using me. Hell, I dated him 5 months and he put on a show for me that he loved me, but it was really all a lie. And I'm so glad that I didn't fall into that trap, because otherwise I'd be totally stuck right now. But I'm not! I'm young, I'm free, and I can do what I want, and I don't even think about him anymore. I've also met boyfriends online before, and I tell ya, it's almost never good. You never know the true personality of the person. No matter how much you think you do. 17 is really young. Things change fast. In 6 months, your situation might be TOTALLY different, and you may feel totally different about this guy. I've been around the block a few times, it always happens to me like that. Things change. Feelings change. You shouldn't make a decision without getting out there and being in the world alone first. Otherwise you'll regret never having done so. Love yourself first!



ps-- that guy I dated was Russian, and what he really wanted was his Green Card. He fed me all the lines... that he loved me, he was doing it for us, he just wanted to be with me... blah blah blah.... and guess what? After breaking up, he turned right around and found another girl, and did the EXACT SAME thing to her. He fed her the same lines, and proposed already. In the same way and the amount of time that he did to me. You never know until it's all over. And I always denied the power of culture on our relationship. I didn't think culture mattered.... but it SOOO mattered.. A LOT! I never thought cultural differences could actually play that big a role as they did.
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#29 Old 06-04-2003, 01:57 AM
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Maybe what I'm about to say is a little controversial, but I just think that no matter how much a person thinks that their culture does not influence them... it DOES!



Now I'm an American and I detest materialism and money, and greed and all of that, and it is a huge part of this culture. But yet... even if I say I'm not like that and I hate it and it's stupid... to a large extent, I still buy into it. There is great societal pressure at work. I may have beliefs that I follow that underlie the forefront of my mind. I may just be in denial and not realize it.



My ex bf/fiance was a Russian living in the United States. From what I understand, patriarchy is a huge part of Russian culture and society. Alex has lived in the United States for 6 years now, and at the tender age of 22, he has taken on almost everything about American culture. He swears up and down that he believes in women's equality. But yet, little things he would say and do would hint that he really feels superior to women, and that women are little pets to be cared for and admired like decorative ornaments. It was disgusting. He took advantage of women, even while saying everything I wanted to hear.



Sometimes culture can't be denied.



Anyway I also wanted to add that it sure sounds like Luckie Charms is doing this as a way to assert independence. She's so close to getting into college... I think college is a great way to assert independence fom the family!! I think she'll be even more dependent in a foreign country with a different language and religion and culture, with no family around... she'll be totally dependent on her husband.. who may treat her as property anyway. It doesn't sound very freeing to me. Ack!
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#30 Old 06-04-2003, 08:35 AM
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LC, you have no choice to wear Western clothing. Even to visit Saudi Arabia, you would be required at the minimum to wear head coverings and an abaya (a neck-to-floor black robe). I know several female US soldiers who have been in SA and have been attacked in the streets by the Saudi religious police, simply because they weren't covered up "properly." Female soldiers are required to wear an abaya and headscarf when off-base and out of uniform. Most women soldiers do not leave the base often, since they must be accompanied by a male soldier when they do so. Women soldiers cannot drive or sit in the front passenger seat of a vehicle. Do you know that you will not be allowed to drive a car at all? It is illegal in SA for any woman to drive.



You will have no legal rights, you are the property of your husband. You cannot vote, you cannot have a job, you are not even supposed to speak to or be alone with a male who is not a close family member. If you decide you want to leave SA, you will need an exit visa - which the US consulate cannot provide for you. You must have your Saudi husband's written permission to even leave the country!



If you are religious in any way, you will not be allowed to publicly practice your faith unless you convert to Islam (so no Christmas!). Even US soldiers in SA are restricted to "morale centers" for religious expression, since they cannot officially have religious services - even on base.



I am not trying to say these things to be mean, but Saudi Arabia is one of the most oppressive places in the world for a woman to live. As a young woman who grew up in the US, there would be incredible culture shock, if you could adjust at all. Of course, once you're there, you can't leave without the permission of this guy (I assume he would be your visa sponsor). Nice Catch-22, huh?



You're 17. As much as you think you're in love and whatnot, you need to face facts. Statistically speaking, those who marry in their teens are very likely to divorce (as opposed to those who wait until their 20s). This guy is 6 years older than you (which would be less of an issue if you were 30 and he was 36), you are still in high school, and your face-to-face contact with this guy has been little to none. He wants you to move to a country that opresses all women, a country that you can't leave unless he says it's OK. Honey, there's no wonder your parents aren't happy! If I had a 17 year old daughter telling me she wanted to move to Saudi Arabia to marry a guy she met on the internet, I'd cut off her internet access and send her to military school.



I know that at 17 it seems as if the most important thing in the world is to assert your independence and get out from under your parents' thumb...you can do that in a year when you go to college! Marrying someone you met on the internet and moving to such an incredibly oppressive country is not the way to do this. Speaking as someone only 5 years older than you, just because you think you know what you want at 17 doesn't mean that's what's best for you or for your future. When I was 17, I never dreamed my life would be the way it is now...a whole lot can change, and I don't think you want to be trying to escape (literally!) from Saudi Arabia and your stranger of a husband.
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