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-   -   "But white meat is fine."-Oncologist sister on cusp of vego-ness. (https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/25-relationships-family/221066-but-white-meat-fine-oncologist-sister-cusp-vego-ness.html)

Beets&Beats 02-25-2017 12:26 PM

"But white meat is fine."-Oncologist sister on cusp of vego-ness.
 
Hi guys!

SO a lot of us are here for enviro or ethical reasons rather than health...
But my neurotic (beyond belief) oncologist sister has been teetering on the edge of veg for about a decade and is finally considering going veg or even vegan for health reasons.
I tried coming at it from an ethical or enviro standpoint but she doesn't see things that way and is one of those people too busy to care and who justifies her own energy (needed to save others) etc. etc. (yes, I could go into that and the myth that people are tired when they go veggo...
I for one have WAY more energy. But I digress...)

Her one sticking point is chicken, which she sees as a soulless and safe protein source. She won't touch dairy or red meat or processed meat but chicken she eats like there's no tomorrow.

I assumed there were studies showing animal protein in general isn't great for you (I know there are many saying it isn't necessary) but I couldn't find any.
Is there any argument for white meat raising cancer risk, as well as red?
Or is she doing ok from a health perspective and from an ethical standpoint is the only angle that will tip things further? If that makes sense (it's 6am here... sorry...)

Or should I just be happy she's cut back on the others and glad she's happy about it too!

Not trying to be the pushy veg sister but I just think she's a bit misguided!
Yes, she's an oncologist but they learned nothing about diet etc, of course...

:nerd:

silva 02-25-2017 01:51 PM

I was surprised by how many hits googling "is chicken a cancer risk" brought!
You certainly do see chicken and fish promoted as better than red meat. Gawd, the conditions on any chicken farm are horrid!

http://www.organicauthority.com/heal...alth-food.html

jessandreia 02-25-2017 01:53 PM

There seem to be fewer studies about white meat causing cancer than red or processed meats, although they do exist.
It might not be as bad in terms of cancer, but it still has cholesterol which can lead to heart problems. I think that in moderation, it should be fine, but if she's indeed eating it like there's no tomorrow...

I have always thought that the health aspect of veganism was the worst reason to go vegan or get someone to go vegan. There is almost no good proof that meat in small moderate amounts is bad for you (correct me if I am wrong). Of course, most people don't know what moderation is when it comes to eating meat.

Maybe show her some videos of chicken showing signs of intelligence, or cuddling up to people. There are probably some online.

David3 02-25-2017 07:44 PM

Your sister might enjoy reading the findings of the Adventist Health Study 2, one of the largest studies of Seventh Day Adventist vegans, vegetarians, semi-vegetarians, and omnivores. This is a respected, peer-reviewed study, and the finding are pretty eye-opening: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/10...nt_1/353S.full
.

Beets&Beats 02-25-2017 08:53 PM

Silva,
yeah, it's a definite ethical issue, isn't it?! But that's not something that she particularly has on the radar. And yeah, chicken and fish are promoted as positive choices... which I guess they are over red meat. But even that pyramid of guidelines has 'chicken and fish' more often than red meat but not very often...

Jessandreia, yeah, I'm of a similar view. Small amounts of fish and chicken don't seem much worse than none at all. But it being the cornerstone of diet would be (and it is in hers) so perhaps I'll point to the studies I DID find saying less is more, etc.
And I like that track, the chicken intelligence thing. Always works better than 'we should not do this'. The 'how great are chickens?!'...

David, that's perfect ! Thankyou! Forwarding it right now!

She's open and curious and wants to do the best thing for her health so it seemed a good opportunity to slip my veggo ways in there, was all...

silva 02-26-2017 07:43 AM

I wasn't referencing ethics in my post- I was pointing out research that shows that eating chicken has health risks involved. My point of 'horrid conditions' on chicken farms was more towards the contamination in their meat-fecal matter, toxins...

121938 02-26-2017 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beets&Beats (Post 4062714)
....

Her one sticking point is chicken, which she sees as a soulless and safe protein source. She won't touch dairy or red meat or processed meat but chicken she eats like there's no tomorrow.

.......

:nerd:

I'm absolutely horrified to read the above. I had rescue chickens for a few years and they have more soul than some people I've met!

As to her abysmal decision to eat only chicken, well pass this on to her and just mention that you came across it and wonder how she feels about the connection implied between cancer and all meats including chicken.

Carcinogenic Compounds in Cooked Meat
Heterocyclic Amines
HCAs, a family of mutagenic compounds, are produced during the cooking process of many animal products, including chicken, beef, pork, and fish. Even meat that is cooked under normal grilling, frying, or oven-broiling may contain significant quantities of these mutagens.6,7,8 The longer and hotter the meat is cooked, the more these compounds form. In some studies, grilled chicken has formed higher concentrations of these cancer-causing substances than other types of cooked meat.9

The major classes of heterocyclic amines include amino-imidazo-quinolines, or amino-imidazo-quinoxalines (collectively called IQ-type compounds), and amino-imidazo-pyridines such as PhIP. IQ-type compounds and PhIP are formed from creatine or creatinine, specific amino acids, and sugars.10 All meats (including fish) are high in creatine, and HCA formation is greatest when cooking meat at high temperatures, as is most common with grilling or frying. Consumption of well-done meat and PhIP has been associated with increased risk of breast cancer and colon cancer, as discussed in greater detail below. A recent case-control study at the University of Utah that included 952 subjects with rectal cancer and 1205 controls found that men and women with the highest consumption of processed or well-cooked meat had an increased risk of rectal cancer.11....

Colorectal Cancer and Meat
As with breast cancer, frequent consumption of meat, particularly red meat, is associated with an increased risk of colon cancer.25,26 Total fat and saturated fat, which tend to be substantially higher in animal products than in plant-derived foods, and refined sugar, all heighten colon cancer risks. At Harvard University, researchers zeroed in on red meat, finding that individuals eating beef, pork, or lamb daily have approximately three times the colon cancer risk, compared to people who generally avoid these products.26,27 A review of 32 case-control and 13 cohort studies concluded that meat consumption is associated with an increase in colorectal cancer risk, with the association being more consistently found with red meat and processed meat.12 And, in the recently published Cancer Prevention Study II, involving 148,610 adults followed since 1982, the group with the highest red meat and processed meat intakes had approximately 30 to 40 percent and 50 percent higher colon cancer risk, respectively, compared to those with lower intakes.28 In this study, high red meat intake was defined as 3 ounces of beef, lamb, or pork for men and 2 ounces for women daily, the amount in a typical hamburger. High processed meat intake (ham, cold cuts, hot dogs, bacon, sausage) was defined as 1 ounce eaten 5 or 6 times a week for men, and 2 or 3 times a week for women—the amount in one slice of ham. In addition, earlier studies have also indicated that those consuming white meat, particularly chicken, have approximately a threefold higher colon cancer risk, compared to vegetarians.29.


http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-re...nd-cancer-risk

As to fish being 'healthy' there's that inconvenient mercury issue......

Beets&Beats 02-26-2017 10:17 PM

Ah! Yes!
Those chems! Yes.

We had a discussion about it when I brought it up the other day actually. She'd been researching too.

She's now only eating fish. So that's something!
Thanks team! ehehe

121938 02-28-2017 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beets&Beats (Post 4063146)
Ah! Yes!
Those chems! Yes.

We had a discussion about it when I brought it up the other day actually. She'd been researching too.

She's now only eating fish. So that's something!
Thanks team! ehehe

One step at a time eh? Now what you need is to discover a report on a study by say, Harvard or Oxford University that points to the 'astronomical levels of mercury in every fish known to man'! Keep looking, I'm sure one will come along:)

Sidhuriel 02-28-2017 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beets&Beats (Post 4063146)
Ah! Yes!
Those chems! Yes.

We had a discussion about it when I brought it up the other day actually. She'd been researching too.

She's now only eating fish. So that's something!
Thanks team! ehehe

Applaud her, congratulate her, stimulate her now.

It's a big change and she might just come around by herself after this, the first hurdle has been taken.

Well done you! :D

silva 02-28-2017 10:09 AM


Purp 03-01-2017 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DebrahM (Post 4063082)
I'm absolutely horrified to read the above. I had rescue chickens for a few years and they have more soul than some people I've met!

As to her abysmal decision to eat only chicken, well pass this on to her and just mention that you came across it and wonder how she feels about the connection implied between cancer and all meats including chicken.

Carcinogenic Compounds in Cooked Meat
Heterocyclic Amines
HCAs, a family of mutagenic compounds, are produced during the cooking process of many animal products, including chicken, beef, pork, and fish. Even meat that is cooked under normal grilling, frying, or oven-broiling may contain significant quantities of these mutagens.6,7,8 The longer and hotter the meat is cooked, the more these compounds form. In some studies, grilled chicken has formed higher concentrations of these cancer-causing substances than other types of cooked meat.9

The major classes of heterocyclic amines include amino-imidazo-quinolines, or amino-imidazo-quinoxalines (collectively called IQ-type compounds), and amino-imidazo-pyridines such as PhIP. IQ-type compounds and PhIP are formed from creatine or creatinine, specific amino acids, and sugars.10 All meats (including fish) are high in creatine, and HCA formation is greatest when cooking meat at high temperatures, as is most common with grilling or frying. Consumption of well-done meat and PhIP has been associated with increased risk of breast cancer and colon cancer, as discussed in greater detail below. A recent case-control study at the University of Utah that included 952 subjects with rectal cancer and 1205 controls found that men and women with the highest consumption of processed or well-cooked meat had an increased risk of rectal cancer.11....

Colorectal Cancer and Meat
As with breast cancer, frequent consumption of meat, particularly red meat, is associated with an increased risk of colon cancer.25,26 Total fat and saturated fat, which tend to be substantially higher in animal products than in plant-derived foods, and refined sugar, all heighten colon cancer risks. At Harvard University, researchers zeroed in on red meat, finding that individuals eating beef, pork, or lamb daily have approximately three times the colon cancer risk, compared to people who generally avoid these products.26,27 A review of 32 case-control and 13 cohort studies concluded that meat consumption is associated with an increase in colorectal cancer risk, with the association being more consistently found with red meat and processed meat.12 And, in the recently published Cancer Prevention Study II, involving 148,610 adults followed since 1982, the group with the highest red meat and processed meat intakes had approximately 30 to 40 percent and 50 percent higher colon cancer risk, respectively, compared to those with lower intakes.28 In this study, high red meat intake was defined as 3 ounces of beef, lamb, or pork for men and 2 ounces for women daily, the amount in a typical hamburger. High processed meat intake (ham, cold cuts, hot dogs, bacon, sausage) was defined as 1 ounce eaten 5 or 6 times a week for men, and 2 or 3 times a week for women—the amount in one slice of ham. In addition, earlier studies have also indicated that those consuming white meat, particularly chicken, have approximately a threefold higher colon cancer risk, compared to vegetarians.29.


http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-re...nd-cancer-risk

As to fish being 'healthy' there's that inconvenient mercury issue......

Don't take this the wrong way, but have you been to Seattle lately?

121938 03-01-2017 07:21 PM

No, I live on Prince Edward Island in Canada. But I am curious, why are you asking about Seattle and why would I take it the wrong way?


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