stand up for beliefs (reply b4 tomarrow!) - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-23-2003, 04:19 PM
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Hello everyone. this is my first post and its pretty important. some back up info first: been a vegetarian for almost 11 months, became one for the love of animals, my parents were pretty hard on me at first thought i'd get sick and that i had bad reasons, only after two months did they finally lay off and respect me not eating meat.



well heres where i need advice: I'm in high school and in my bio. classes we have to dissect a fetal pig. Now i would prob'ly dissect the pig if it's mother didn't get slaughtered, if it died of natural causes while pregant i prob'ly would've. Of course right when i found out we HAD to do the assignment i was totally against it! I told my parents and they wanted me to do and so did my teacher. so practically it was all up to me to stand against it. my teacher told me that of the four years he's been teaching at the school everyone had done the assignment and i'm the first one to refuse, a title i am kinda proud of. anyway it took alot of times to get my teacher to understand that there was no way that i would do the dissection and that i'd rather fail. so later in the year (this all happened at the beginning) i believe i'm one of his fav. students so when they do the dissection (which is tomarrow) i can go to the library and do the dissection online. Okie so this is where my mom falls in: I have realized that it was difficult to refuse the dissection and that maybe alot of students are against it but don't have the guts to say no like i do. I realized that there is no student choice plan at our skwel, in other words the teacher should ask prior to the dissection if anyone does not want to do it and they would have a different but equal project. I decided that i'd write up a report and give it to our Principle in hopes that she'd change it. I went home and researched for a least an hour then i told my mother my plan. She was totally against it. she was saying that i should just stay out of it and that i'm just making trouble. She said that i can't make everyone do what i want and it's not that she doesn't understand like i do. STUDENTS SHOULD HAVE A CHOICE! its not fair for an assignment to go against someone's beliefs or religion. if it was someones religion it would be breaking the 1st amendment! I don't want other students to have to go thru the trouble i did to stand up and respect their own beliefs! i don't know what to do. my parents are totally against it and i don't get how to get them to understand what i'm trying to do becuz if i go against their word anyway i'd get in trouble. so plz some i need advice!

veggiegrl
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#2 Old 04-23-2003, 05:23 PM
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Stick up for your beliefs. Write to your principal. You're not requesting that they do away with dissesction completely--you're just respectfully asking that students be allowed the choice of whether to dissect or not. That's hardly making trouble.



I'm sorry your parents are acting like this. If I had taken the time to do the research and present my ideas to the principal on an issue I felt strongly about, my parents would have been very proud of me. I guess I'm lucky in that my parents taught me to stand up for what I believe in.



Tell your mom that in lieu of all the other things you could be doing (drugs, stealing cars, beating the crap out of people, associating with skinheads, getting pregnant, etc.), this is actually productive. If that doesn't work, throw it back on her by saying something like "You raised me to stand up for what I believe in and now you want me to back off?"



Good luck. Stick to your guns.
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#3 Old 04-23-2003, 05:52 PM
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I deal with this as well. Fortunatly, right now my school doesn't have enough money to purchase animals for dissection, so I should be able to get out of this year's bio class without having to deal with it.



However, when I was in jr. High school, before I finally decided to make the transition, my 7th grade science teacher and my 8th grade animal science teacher (the same woman) had us do dissections most weeks. Among the worst: pigeons, a full grown cat, a pregnant shark, starfish, and of course the traditional frog, squid, worm, ect. At one point I counted how many animals I dissected or did "behavior experiments" on during those two years, and the number made me sick.



The only choice we had was to try to get transfered to the one science teacher that didn't require dissection. Unfortunatly, I chose not to be transfered because the woman was an incredible teacher, a living legend that everyone remembers long after they've left the school.



I'm all for you trying to make your school give students a choice. But don't feel like you have a deadline.... if you can't get results this year, remember next year's students. These things can take some time.
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#4 Old 04-23-2003, 06:49 PM
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http://www.navs.org/education/object...onID=Education



It includes a hotline you can call from the Antivivisection society for help. They will loan you alternative materials.



And another link

http://www.teachkind.com/sci.html



ETA- Pennsylvania, Florida, California, New York, Rhode Island, and Illinois have laws that protect your rights.



http://www.humanestudent.org/indexem...da79d2c2e43317
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#5 Old 04-23-2003, 08:05 PM
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Hey there,



Just wanted to cheer you on!! Don't give up on this -- most principals (not all, but a good chunk of them) appreciate students who respectfully and thoughtfully call for meaningful change. As a high school teacher, I am *constantly* reminding my students when they whine about things that they need to make their voices heard -- write letters, petitions, etc. So far the students have avoided getting uniforms at our school due to persistent letter-writing to the superintendent -- your writing can definitely make a difference!



Also, I've got some research around here that talks about how having student choice involved in education makes students more involved in their assignments and therefore apply themselves more. It's from the classes I had to take to become a teacher. I'll dig around and get back to you. Good luck!



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#6 Old 04-23-2003, 08:09 PM
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"teacher told me that of the four years he's been teaching at the school everyone had done the assignment and i'm the first one to refuse,"



That may well be a lie. It is common ploy of manipulators to tell the prospectively-manipulated that if you don't do how I want, you will be in the minority. Goes along with "Resistance is futile."
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#7 Old 04-23-2003, 08:14 PM
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I think it will be much easier to get out of dissecting the fetal pig than you think.



That said -- I think perhaps you should do it. There are other ways to get food other than killing animals -- but there is really no other way to learn about animal (and similar human) anatomy. The consequence of my dissections revealing the complications of animals was that it made me appreciate and value living animals more and become more firm about wanting to avoid unnecessary harm.
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#8 Old 04-23-2003, 08:46 PM
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well, i just had a talk w/ my mom and basically told her that i'm going to stand up for what i believe in and i'm sry if she doesn' t agree w/ me but its just something i have to do. She wasn't too happy but she wasn't angry either so that's good. thanks Mskedi for going to get some info for me, that would be great! thank you. too everyone else thank you for helping me and being there i'm so glad i found this website

veggiegrl
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#9 Old 04-23-2003, 08:55 PM
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I avoided my dissections in high school.. I wasn't going to become a vet or doctor or anything so couldn't see the need in hand's on experience, and it seriously upset me. We had a toad and a rat, nothing bigger, oh and a lamb's heart and bull's eye. With the rat one I ended up walking out.
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#10 Old 04-23-2003, 08:57 PM
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actually, i am planning on becoming a vet . but i have found colleges who have cancled out dissection so i'm planning on going there...
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#11 Old 04-23-2003, 08:58 PM
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Check on whether the state that you live in has laws requiring an alternative to dissection. If it does, that should be a good ground to work with. Also, you can us ethe whole religion thing as well, since it would be insane to require a buddhist to do a dissection.
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#12 Old 04-23-2003, 10:28 PM
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This is not meant as an antagonistic question, but how will you be able to operate on animals if you don't have the experience?
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#13 Old 04-23-2003, 10:30 PM
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there are other ways to learn other then dissection such as computer programs and pictures etc...
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#14 Old 04-23-2003, 11:07 PM
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no offence but yourmom is wrong. YOU should inform the principal. Man oh man, I remember wanting so bad to stick up for my " i wont dissect anything " stance when i was in high school. to bad i turned veg after school ;/ . I really wanted to show up those teachers though
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#15 Old 04-24-2003, 01:15 PM
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Argh, all the stuff I've found has to do with choice in reading and writing topics (which makes sense since I teach English), but I was sure in my credential courses there were generalized statistics about student choice... I'm still looking. Just though I'd let you know I haven't forgotten.



I'm glad your mom wasn't angry -- if your mom's anything like my mom, that's quite a feat.



In response to others' comments about dissection, I actually enjoyed all the dissections we did. I was on & off veg in high school, but then became serious after I graduated, but I still did several dissections in college. I find them fascinating, personally, but I would understand some people's aversion to them & fully respect their right not to dissect. Oddly enough, I was always the only veg in my lab groups, but I was also the only one in those groups who wasn't squeamish -- I always ended up doing the inscisions & holding things open for others in my group to see. Maybe it didn't bother me so much because I knew I wasn't going to go out and *eat* the cute little fetal pig (or any animal -- we mostly did sheep, mink, worms, pigs, cats...)later?



Okay, cute probably wasn't the word. They stank. But still, it was fascinating stuff.



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#16 Old 04-24-2003, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shewolf

This is not meant as an antagonistic question, but how will you be able to operate on animals if you don't have the experience?

The same way surgeons learn to operate on people. During clinical rotations and residency, you learn as you go under the supervision of others (although it is not always that close, and students aren't always that prepared from what I hear). Actually it kind of scary, bc students/residents learn by doing, and it could be you! If you don't ask, you'll never know.
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#17 Old 04-24-2003, 10:15 PM
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Thanks Thalia, that makes sense. I always thought about those cliched dissecting the cadavers...
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#18 Old 05-15-2003, 05:39 PM
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It is so awesome that you want to stand up for what you believe! I doubt that a big change will happen tomorrow. But that does not mean that you should give up. Future dissections may be no more at your school. Or people could have the option of using computers or animals. Perhaps, you could have students fill out a petition. That would be more information to present to the principal that others want the same thing to be done. And I'm sure the principal would want to accomodate the students if he or she could.
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#19 Old 05-15-2003, 09:33 PM
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in high school i refused to dissect anything - including insects. my teacher didn't give me a hard time at all. i agree that most principals are very respectful and appreciative of students who have strong morals and are willing to discuss issues they have concerns with.



on a side note... muppetcow.. why is associating with skinheads a bad thing? they're generally nice people and its a misconception that skinheads are racists.
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#20 Old 05-16-2003, 09:04 AM
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Silly me, I went forward with dissecting a fetal pig even though my teacher gave me the option not to. I think I wanted the challenge. But it was pretty gross, and at the time I wished I hadn't done it.



In retrospect, though, I guess I'm glad for the experience, since I want to go into health care. Computer animations are no substitute for the real thing. If you're going to be a vet, you might want to consider it.
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#21 Old 05-16-2003, 02:20 PM
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first:



veggiegrl--good for you.





second:



soilman, i agree. i found dissection makes me value the thing more. mskedi: me too--it never made me squeamish. still doesn't (occassionally i dissect an dead animal that ends up near my doorstep. i'm rather a curious sort. I'm into organs too. friends who fish and hunt often give me the organs from the cleaned animals--i find them truly fascinating. most the people eating the animals can't stomach it at all!).



third:



medical students becoming doctors learn on human cadavers, as well as dead animals, various "fake" or plastic humans or organs, as well as on the living. well before they get to their internships and residencies, they've practiced on any number of dead creatures.



finally:



this is an interesting topic. I particularly like the legal side of it, even though i don't practice the law at all anymore. Heh, graduated a year ago and i'm already out of it! YAY!
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#22 Old 05-20-2003, 02:29 AM
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i think becuase im vegan i can cut open stuff and examin whats what. that sound wierd but for some reason i was squeemish when i was omni and didnt like to do it. now i can accept the facts of whats what and i do it with ease.
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