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#1 Old 01-28-2009, 08:18 PM
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my husband's uncle has this beautiful dog, she's a purebred great pyranese. she's an outside dog (she sleeps in a heated garage) for the purpose of scaring wild animals away from their livestock (they have cows and used to have goats). but she's very gentle with people. i assumed he was smart enough to have her spayed but apparantly he didn't get around to it in time and they caught her in the act with a neighbour's german shepherd that wandered over. so now there are puppies. he was going to abort them, but a few people said they might take one of the pups if he kept them, one of those people being my MIL. i'm happy to say she decided not to take one after all (the dog they have now has an injury to one of his ccl's i believe and they won't spend the money to have it repaired, i was upset that they would take in another dog when the one they have is in need of medical attention, that's just stupid) but he had said if she does't want them aborted he'll just give us all the pups when they're weened and we can do whatever we want with them. he said he didn't mind letting her carry to term if he didn't have to be the one to find them homes.

so the deal was if we find them homes we can keep whatever money we make off them. so she's letting her daughter do it (who is 11) to make money for a party for her next birthday. i offered to help her out because i want to make sure these pups get good forever homes and don't go to just anybody.

my MIL said if i help they will split the money with me.

i don't really agree with breeding and selling dogs but given the circumstances the dogs need homes and i'm absolutely willing to help find them good homes. out here in the country it is too likely that someone will take them for guard dogs and train them to be aggressive, and those types of people are more likely to be negligent and abusive. and they weren't bred on purpose. i'm going to harass him to make sure he gets her spayed as soon as possible. (is it safe to spay right after delivering or does she need time to recover?)

my MIL was just going to give them away free to good homes, no shots or anything. i said she can and should sell them. for starters i've seen pyranese/shepherd crosses going for $250+ so she'd be dumb to pass up that kind of cash, plus if we charge a reasonable yet substantial enough amount we will get more serious people who are actually looking for a dog and not just taking one on a whim because it's free, and we can screen them more this way too. have them answer some questions and make sure that they plan to spay/neuter. i also think we should definately get them their first shots before selling them. my MIL said we could make it a conditional thing, pay x amount with shots, less or free without. i said no we get them shots and initial checkups before we even advertise, we don't want to risk the health of the pups, and people who are serious about getting a dog will want to know that their pup passed a health check and has his/her shots. i wouldn't buy a dog without shots

how soon after birth should they get their shots?

i've never had to deal with this stuff before so any advice, suggestions, opinions would be welcome.



i'll post pics as soon as i get over there to see them. maybe this weekend. there are 5, they were born this morning and he hadn't been able to sex them yet when my MIL talked to him so we don't know how many males vs females. they all turned out black which is weird, the mother is pure white.



i've already looked into the breed's temperments, they are very loyal and protective so they make good guard dogs but they're docile so also very good family pets. i'm going to make sure they are all going to families looking for indoor pets. they're going to be big dogs though, i hope that won't make it difficult to find homes. i hate that there are so many big dogs in the shelters all the time.



eta: if i'm working on this with my SIL i think it's a good opportunity to teach her something about animals not being disposable. her parents have been giving her bad examples with their dog, birds and hamster, "if it doesn't work out just give it away" sort of mentality and "if it costs too much just put them down". i really want her to grow up respecting animals and not treating them as disposable playthings and fashion accessories. so i'd like to take her over there to see them through this process so it's not just a business transaction to her, she actually understands that these little lives are in her hands.

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#2 Old 01-28-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyFaile View Post

my husband's uncle has this beautiful dog, she's a purebred great pyranese. she's an outside dog (she sleeps in a heated garage) for the purpose of scaring wild animals away from their livestock (they have cows and used to have goats). but she's very gentle with people. i assumed he was smart enough to have her spayed but apparantly he didn't get around to it in time and they caught her in the act with a neighbour's german shepherd that wandered over. so now there are puppies. he was going to abort them, but a few people said they might take one of the pups if he kept them, one of those people being my MIL. i'm happy to say she decided not to take one after all (the dog they have now has an injury to one of his ccl's i believe and they won't spend the money to have it repaired, i was upset that they would take in another dog when the one they have is in need of medical attention, that's just stupid) but he had said if she does't want them aborted he'll just give us all the pups when they're weened and we can do whatever we want with them. he said he didn't mind letting her carry to term if he didn't have to be the one to find them homes.

so the deal was if we find them homes we can keep whatever money we make off them. so she's letting her daughter do it (who is 11) to make money for a party for her next birthday. i offered to help her out because i want to make sure these pups get good forever homes and don't go to just anybody.

my MIL said if i help they will split the money with me.

i don't really agree with breeding and selling dogs but given the circumstances the dogs need homes and i'm absolutely willing to help find them good homes. out here in the country it is too likely that someone will take them for guard dogs and train them to be aggressive, and those types of people are more likely to be negligent and abusive. and they weren't bred on purpose. i'm going to harass him to make sure he gets her spayed as soon as possible. (is it safe to spay right after delivering or does she need time to recover?)

my MIL was just going to give them away free to good homes, no shots or anything. i said she can and should sell them. for starters i've seen pyranese/shepherd crosses going for $250+ so she'd be dumb to pass up that kind of cash, plus if we charge a reasonable yet substantial enough amount we will get more serious people who are actually looking for a dog and not just taking one on a whim because it's free, and we can screen them more this way too. have them answer some questions and make sure that they plan to spay/neuter. i also think we should definately get them their first shots before selling them. my MIL said we could make it a conditional thing, pay x amount with shots, less or free without. i said no we get them shots and initial checkups before we even advertise, we don't want to risk the health of the pups, and people who are serious about getting a dog will want to know that their pup passed a health check and has his/her shots. i wouldn't buy a dog without shots

how soon after birth should they get their shots?

i've never had to deal with this stuff before so any advice, suggestions, opinions would be welcome.



i'll post pics as soon as i get over there to see them. maybe this weekend. there are 5, they were born this morning and he hadn't been able to sex them yet when my MIL talked to him so we don't know how many males vs females. they all turned out black which is weird, the mother is pure white.



i've already looked into the breed's temperments, they are very loyal and protective so they make good guard dogs but they're docile so also very good family pets. i'm going to make sure they are all going to families looking for indoor pets. they're going to be big dogs though, i hope that won't make it difficult to find homes. i hate that there are so many big dogs in the shelters all the time.



Shepards are usually great family dogs that make good watch dogs for the family if socialized right. Good luck to you...They are probably really cute

^Cool story, bro
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#3 Old 01-28-2009, 10:08 PM
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*sigh*

i posted a similar thread on another board i go to and a couple of people said that i was just seeing these puppies as dollar signs and not looking out for their best interest and that i'm irresponsible for not researching it better beforehand and whatnot.

it doesn't seem that way, does it? i mean they're not my dogs, i'm not the one caring for them, i'm just finding them homes. i'm not in it for the money i'm in it to make sure they get proper homes because i know the others don't care enough to screen the potential owners, they'll end up neglected or abused or in shelters! they didn't even want to get them vet checked and vaccinated ffs!

i hope nobody here thinks i'm just out to make a buck here, i just want to see these dogs well cared for even if i do give them away for free. the only reason i wasn't prepared and well researched before they were born is cause i didn't know they were going to be born so soon, or at all really! they told us about it around christmas time but they weren't sure if she was pregnant for sure or how far along she was if she was. they then confirmed after christmas that she was pregnant but they still didn't really know when it happened cause they saw the GS wandering around a lot the past few months. they didn't catch on til after the damage was done that he was coming onto their property and courting their dog. so we didn't know when she was due. funny i was just thinking about it yesterday, i wonder when she'll have her puppies, lol. i wish he'd kept in contact with us and told us that it would be soon.

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#4 Old 01-28-2009, 11:58 PM
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An 'adoption fee' is a good idea to make sure that people are just not picking up a dog without any care or thought for the matter.
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#5 Old 01-29-2009, 01:25 AM
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yes you really do need to sell them rather than giving them away for free.



If you advertized for free, trust me you would get hundreds and hundreds of calls from unsuitable homes. Just wanting the dogs because they were a great bargain.



We had a three legged puppy (back in the day when we used to breed dogs ) that we sold for half price, and we got hundreds of calls from complete wasters who we just hung up on straight away. After chatting to others, nearly all of them seemed unsuitable. It was not a genetic problem btw - the leg had got twisted into a funny position in the womb and grown into a strange shape and was stunted so he had a useless little leg which was amputated later on.



Selling for a highish price means you will get people who were actually looking to spend money on a dog and have thought long and hard about it.



Be warned though, people will lie about their circumstances on the phone. It is usually quite easy to tell who is truthful though. And be careful about people buying puppies as surprises for people even if it seems like a decent home. We would never sell unless the whole family were happy about it.

Another scenario we would never sell to was the "we work all day, but dont worry my mum will come over/ the dog can go to my mums house/ my flatmate will be in" They may well be telling the truth, but chances are the other person also has a life and the puppy will be left alone, or they are lying and the puppy will be alone while they are at work. And this seems harsh, but disabled people who would be unable to walk a dog were also a no-no to us.



Maybe we were snobbish, but we would also never sell to anyone who lived in a council house or a very rough area.



You just have to be very picky and careful. do home visits if you can and ask lots and lots of questions about the owners job, holidays, other pets they have had (if they have had 3 dogs all hit by cars, chances are they are allowing their dogs to wander on roads, and they are doing something wrong if all their pets die young and many have accidents). If they have had a few dogs that lived a long time, that is a good sign.

ask if they are going to breed. Anyone who knowingly breeds mixed breed dogs is careless and stupid - they are difficult to find good homes for.



As for how you sell them. Giving them to friends who you know would be good homes is best. We have found our best homes through the kennel club, butI dont think you can advitise mixed breed dogs. Another way that we found great homes was posting adverts in respectable papers (the scotsman was our best in scotland). Obviously if you post in tabloids you will get calls from rubbish homes. In my opinion using adtrader type papers is a waste of money. We have got hundreds of calls but never found a good home through adtrader. I think we got one home through another website -epups or something.



Good luck!
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#6 Old 01-29-2009, 09:00 AM
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I think most responsible pet owners expect to pay an adoption fee unless they find a stray. You will probably have to wait a few months to spay the mother because of the risk of bleeds from a swollen uterus. Puppies usually start getting shots at 8-12 wks of age. You may be able to find a vet who will spay/neuter the puppies young too (shelters often do it at 6-8 wks old) so you can get them all fixed before you give them away, then just make the adoption fee a little bit above what it cost you to have them get their first vet visit, shots, and spay/neuter.

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#7 Old 01-29-2009, 10:40 AM
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I think most responsible pet owners expect to pay an adoption fee unless they find a stray. You will probably have to wait a few months to spay the mother because of the risk of bleeds from a swollen uterus. Puppies usually start getting shots at 8-12 wks of age. You may be able to find a vet who will spay/neuter the puppies young too (shelters often do it at 6-8 wks old) so you can get them all fixed before you give them away, then just make the adoption fee a little bit above what it cost you to have them get their first vet visit, shots, and spay/neuter.









Yes, it's a bit riskier to spay and neuter puppies, but our shelter has wonderful luck with it. And that way you can be sure that they will not continue this problem of unwanted litters. Some vets may give you a nice discount to do the whole litter.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#8 Old 01-29-2009, 12:03 PM
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I know my vet would not neuter puppies that young. It is riskier, and apparantly can interfere with their growth and development. And it will cost a lot.
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#9 Old 01-29-2009, 04:28 PM
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I know my vet would not neuter puppies that young. It is riskier, and apparantly can interfere with their growth and development. And it will cost a lot.



Greater than the risk and cost of the puppy not getting altered and another unwanted litter (or 5) entering the world?

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#10 Old 01-29-2009, 04:56 PM
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As others have said, definitely charge a fee for the puppies. You can always donate the money you make to charity.
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#11 Old 01-29-2009, 05:04 PM
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I know my vet would not neuter puppies that young. It is riskier, and apparantly can interfere with their growth and development. And it will cost a lot.



There are several well-skilled vets around here who sterilize puppies. They help the no-kill shelters tremendously by taking care of this so more unwanted puppies are not brought in 6 months. It does not interfere with development. It may alter some of the growth, but if you want to wait until your male dog has a nice thick neck, then you certainly risk having him impregnate other dogs. You can always transfer the cost of the operation to the adoption fee.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#12 Old 01-29-2009, 05:13 PM
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Of course instead of charging an adoption fee for the puppies, you could just have them spayed/neutered and vaccinated and ask the adopter to pay you back for that when you adopt them out. I think that's more than reasonable, seeing as any responsible dog owner would be prepared to do that anyways.
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#13 Old 01-29-2009, 05:23 PM
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I think you should get the puppies fixed, get them their shots, ect. Set the adoption fee for whatever it costs in vet bills per puppy.
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#14 Old 01-29-2009, 06:49 PM
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I'm glad you're taking a negative situation (more puppies) and using it in a good way (teach SIL respect for animals). It's always a good idea to charge something for puppies, those ads are often answered by bunchers and the pups sold for research (they are legally obtained).

To answer some of your questions:



The mother should be spayed 8-12 weeks after delivery, it does provide hormones that help with milk production and it's smaller again (involuted).



Puppy vaccinations and deworming should start at 6 weeks and repeated every 2-4 weeks until 16 weeks. The reason for the vaccination schedule is that puppies get antibodies from mom at the first feeding and thse antibodies react to the vaccines before the pups immune system does. When a pup's immune system responds depends on how many antibodies s/he got from mom and how soon the numbers decline. They are usually gone by 12 weeks. The vaccines work off each other so you don't want to space them out too far (beyond 4 weeks) and you need at least a series of 2 vaccines after 12 weeks of age to get the pup's antibody level high enough for protection.



There is recent evidence that early spay/neuter does affect long bone developement, but to a humane group preventing puppies is more important. I've seen people almost bragging that their humane society adoption is still intact years later (in IL, the law is within 30 days after adoption they must be fixed) or bring in an oopsy litter bacause they waited too long. Doing the surgery before they go to their new home is up to you. If you think they are good, go ahead and let them go intact, if not, get them fixed before they go. No elective surgery should be done before 8 weeks of age.



Feel free to ask for references, like they vet they use of their groomer.



Good things to find out is about how many other pets they have or have had, what happened to them. How long the pups will be home alone, how they plan to train and house break. What they intend to feed them or do if the pup get sick.



Plan to spend a few hours with the potential home before you decide to let the pup go. You'll get a better idea about the people that way.



Good luck with the pups. Post pics when you get them.
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#15 Old 01-29-2009, 07:29 PM
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thank you guys all so much for the awesome info and for putting my mind at ease on the whole charging money thing. i really would be ok with just covering the vet cost. i thought about spay/neuter but i wasn't sure how safe it was to do it that young. but what you guys said makes sense, it's better than having more unwanted puppies if the owners slack on it.

i've heard different opinions of when they can be seperated from the mom, do you think 8 weeks is too early? if we took them at 8 weeks and had them spayed/neutered and let them recover at our place before homing them that would be the most convenient way to do it but i want to do what's best for them. some people say 10 weeks some say 8 i really don't know what's better. i think the owner will be anxious to unload them as soon as he can



i'm going to take all the suggestions for questions to ask buyers and write them into a questionnaire so i don't forget to ask anything. hopefully i'll be able to find time to make home visits. i'm really hoping to give some to people we already know but i don't want to give them to family members that will treat them as outside dogs, and i'm afraid of insulting someone by not wanting them to have one of the pups. we'll see i guess. i'm hoping my boss will take one, she said she was interested when i first mentioned the mother being pregnant, she loves the breeds and was thinking of getting something along these lines to protect her farm animals. she has a hobby farm of small animals that are just pets, not raised for food, and she loves every one of them. she has a dog already but he's too much of a suck to be much help if a coyote goes after her turkeys or something. so i'm really hoping she will still want one, i know that dog would be treated really well. if i only i could convince her to take all 5

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#16 Old 01-29-2009, 08:11 PM
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She wants a dog to protect her animals from coyotes? so, what exactly? to scare the coyote? or to attack the coyote before it could attck her other animals? This could result in injury or death of the dog.
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#17 Old 01-29-2009, 09:31 PM
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no no nothing like that. she didn't say coyotes specifically but we do have them in our area. they and other wild animals seem to not approach houses that have a strong scent of dogs. my inlaws, when they scoop dog poop from the front lawn they chuck it into the bushes surrounding the property, and it seems to keep most wildlife away from the house. we see tracks way out in the back of the property all the time but never close to the house.

my boss does have a dog already but this one would be like a livestock guardian which is what pyranese are basically bred for, meaning it would spend a lot of time in the barn and whatnot. it's very common practice around here and i haven't heard of any dogs used for this purpose being killed or injured by wildlife around here. we don't get anything all that vicious around here, but big enough to take off with a young turkey or pygmy goat if they have nothing to scare them off



i don't really believe in outdoor only dogs, i know that she will have the dog in the house overnight when the other critters are locked up safely anyways. i wouldn't offer her one if i thought it was in danger or anything

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#18 Old 01-29-2009, 11:08 PM
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I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet, but I'd leave them with mom 9-11 weeks. There are things they learn from mom and littermates that humans can't really teach. When I had a litter to find homes for, I was told at least 9 weeks. Of course my pups were outside, along a winding country road with no speed limit, so I took them at 7 because I was afraid they would get hit by a car. But they really need more time with the mother than that.
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#19 Old 01-30-2009, 10:13 AM
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no no nothing like that. she didn't say coyotes specifically but we do have them in our area. they and other wild animals seem to not approach houses that have a strong scent of dogs. my inlaws, when they scoop dog poop from the front lawn they chuck it into the bushes surrounding the property, and it seems to keep most wildlife away from the house. we see tracks way out in the back of the property all the time but never close to the house.

my boss does have a dog already but this one would be like a livestock guardian which is what pyranese are basically bred for, meaning it would spend a lot of time in the barn and whatnot. it's very common practice around here and i haven't heard of any dogs used for this purpose being killed or injured by wildlife around here. we don't get anything all that vicious around here, but big enough to take off with a young turkey or pygmy goat if they have nothing to scare them off



i don't really believe in outdoor only dogs, i know that she will have the dog in the house overnight when the other critters are locked up safely anyways. i wouldn't offer her one if i thought it was in danger or anything



I've never heard of coyotes not going around dog scent. We have two dogs, and the people on the other side of the woods have dogs, too. But there's been coyotes in the woods and spotted on both of our properties before. Interesting about the dog poop keeping the wildlife away!
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#20 Old 01-30-2009, 12:50 PM
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most breeders sell pups at 7 weeks. Six is the minimum age, but I think that is too early.

we sold all of ours at seven weeks.



Dont sell puppies during their 8th week, as apparantly they go through a phase at this time when they take bieng separated from their mother very badly.



You can wait until around 9-10 weeks, but some mums are completely fed up with a litter of hungry sharp toothed puppies by then, and if she has got thin from feeding them it is best to sell them early so she can recover.



As for vaccines - I cant remember off the top of my head the programme, but I know that by seven weeks they are not old enough for the vaccines. They can have one, but it is a waste of money as it is pretty unneffective and they still need the others. We used to charge extra for owners to have this done, as some wanted it but there is really no point and its a waste of money.



The owners will have to take responsibility for vaccines as I know there is one at 12 weeks which is after they have left. All good owners will not even consider leaving their dogs unvaccinated.



You should start a worming programme soon as well. There is different types of worming solution available so speak to your vet. i think they get wormed first at about three weeks, but I cant really remember.
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#21 Old 02-03-2009, 08:09 PM
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so they miscounted, i guess they were all piled on top of each other or under the mom or maybe she wasn't finished birthing them.

we haven't gone to see them yet but we got pictures from the owner and we count 7. 4 black and 3 brown. (1 dark brown, one brindle and one fawn-ish colour from what i can tell by the pics. and one of the blacks looks to have a brown belly)



http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pupsqe5.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pups2ia7.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pups3xl8.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pups4og9.jpg

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#22 Old 02-03-2009, 11:38 PM
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Year ago i went to see this ladies collie the requirement was i was to pay to have her spayed before she was allowed to come home with me.
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#23 Old 02-04-2009, 04:59 AM
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WOW!!!! CUTENESS! They certainly took after the shep didn't they?



I think it is great that you are going to help these pups find good forever homes
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#24 Old 02-04-2009, 07:44 PM
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my boss might be taking the light brown one lol

which is good cause if there was one i was tempted to keep it's that one.



cinders, how did that work? did they get her spayed before you took her or did they prepay for it and you brought her in when she was old enough? i'm torn about having it done as pups, if i can somehow guarantee that they new owners will do it then i'd rather not have to do it and increase their risk of his dysplasia etc

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#25 Old 02-05-2009, 02:28 AM
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any good home will spay. I cant see that anyone who cares about dogs wefare will knowingly want to breed a cross-breed, and so most people will spay their dogs to prevent accidents.



Just be very, very careful looking for homes as I said before.
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#26 Old 02-05-2009, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by luv4sheep View Post

any good home will spay. I cant see that anyone who cares about dogs wefare will knowingly want to breed a cross-breed, and so most people will spay their dogs to prevent accidents.



Just be very, very careful looking for homes as I said before.



Where do you think the "designer" breeds come from? I've seen many people intentionally cross breed dogs or be certain that their dog won't get out, or they don't want to take away their "manhood" (they aren't a man, so they don't have manhood!!!). The excuses go on and on.



Unless you are reasonably certain the person is going to spay/neuter at the correct age, get it done before they go. You could also purchase certificates and make the adopter buy them from you. Then there's no claim they the didn't have the money in time.
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#27 Old 02-05-2009, 04:14 PM
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if all good homes spayed and neutered i wouldn't be having to find homes for 7 puppies right now

hubby's uncle plans to spay her now as soon as she's recovered, and did plan to have it done all along but never got around to it. doesn't mean he's not a good owner or anything, (though sometimes i wonder) it was irresponsible for sure but i can see how he could put it off and lose track of time and then woops too late.

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Hope it disappears right here with the rain
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#28 Old 02-08-2009, 05:20 PM
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update: there are actually 8. *sigh*

I'm singin' here to get rid of fear
Hope it disappears right here with the rain
But I know life is pain, not like a fairytale
Meaningless to pray, so just goin' on my way
~Miyavi "Torture"
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#29 Old 02-08-2009, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFaile View Post

update: there are actually 8. *sigh*



omg they're multiplying!! that's a ton of puppies, jeez.

http://megatarian.blogspot.com
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#30 Old 02-08-2009, 06:27 PM
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If you feel bad about selling the puppies, you can always trade them for a certain amount of dog's food/medicine and them donate it to an animal shelter.
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