Pooping in the crate - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-26-2008, 12:29 PM
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Okay, my friend is having a hard time crate training her puppy. She has asked me for advice, but I really don't know what to tell her.



The puppy was a stray. She found it wandering around outside. She has started to house break the dog, but when she puts her in the crate at night to sleep or when she goes out, the dog imediatly uses the bathroom. Most of the time, it's poop. Usually what she does is cleans the poop out, and takes the puppy out to potty. She takes her out before bed too, and she usually pees and poops. Somehow, she always manages to save enough that she can go in the crate almost right after she sticks her in there. My friend is getting really frustrated and is about to just move the dog to the back yard. Any help would be greatly appreciated so the puppy doesn't end up in the back!
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#2 Old 03-26-2008, 01:40 PM
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Maybe she can put the crate in a playpen with a potty pad? That way the dog can leave the crate and use a potty pad.
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#3 Old 03-26-2008, 01:42 PM
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First of all, she should rehome it before she sticks it in the back yard. I don't get people like that. If your kid was having trouble potty training, would you stick him in the back yard until he learned?



How big is the crate? She may need to make it smaller, so the dog doesn't have room to poop and still have a clean spot to lie down. She could also try feeding it earlier, well before bedtime or before she goes out. How old is it? Young puppies can't hold their pee as long as older dogs can. Also, has it been wormed? Parasites can make it have to go more often. It may also have separation anxiety, if it's doing it the moment it's separated from her. Does it show any other signs of separation anxiety? One of my dogs, when I first got her, would poop every time I left her alone, even if it was 5 minutes. Solving the separation anxiety solved the problem.
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#4 Old 03-26-2008, 01:57 PM
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The crate she is using is big enough that the dog can poop in the front, and then walk to the walk of the crate and lay down. Maybe she needs to make it smaller. I gave her some dewormer to use that I had for Kira. I'm sure she used it. The puppy did have a lot of worms though. Is there a good brand of dewormer I can suggest to her? She's getting the shots done in a couple of weeks when the mobile vet clinic comes back to Petco, but I don't believe they offer deworming.
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#5 Old 03-26-2008, 02:00 PM
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I don't remember much about that otc puppy dewormer, but I think you have to use it more than once. If she can afford it, or if there's a low cost clinic in your area, I'd just get the "good stuff" from a vet. It's much stronger but works more quickly.



She can put a box in the crate or divide it in half with a board to make it smaller. Just make sure it's not something the puppy can get sick/injured on if it chews. (A small breed puppy might just gnaw on a board; a larger breed might bite chunks off and swallow them.)
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#6 Old 03-26-2008, 02:06 PM
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I was the one who gave her the crate, and I THINK I have a divider around here someplace for it. I passed some of Kira's old stuff along to her. I'm going to tell her she should call the vet I used and get some dewormer. He'll probably give her the stuff without an apointment if she is sure the dog still has worms. It seems like she felt bad because the puppy was a stray and wanted to give it a home, but doesn't want to put in the effort to actually care for the dog ya know? Like the whole vet bills part.



I might end up taking the dog if it doesn't work out. We found out what happened with Kira and corrected the situation, so it shouldn't happen again.
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#7 Old 03-26-2008, 02:14 PM
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Also make sure the crate is VERY clean. For teo reasons. The puppy may smell another dog and want to "mark" the space (even small puppys will do this.

OR, If the puppy smells any urine or poop he may automatically think he needs to go there again. This will mean thoroughally sanitizing and probably using an enzymatic cleaner - dogs noses are way sharper than ours and can pick up scents long after we think it's clean.



If your friend doesn't want to put much effort into the pup, she most likely isn't putting a lot of effort into cleaning the crate EXTREMELY well, each and EVERY time the puppy goes. I totally understand, it is a real PAIN, but that's one of those things we sign up for when choosing to take on a pet.
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#8 Old 03-26-2008, 03:13 PM
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Another suggestion is to take the puppy outside the instant your friend gets out of bed in the morning. Don't go potty, don't change clothes, take a shower, etc...



We had a foster dog who couldn't make it through the night. Then I realized that the poop I found in the crate in the morning was very fresh. I figured out that our noises upstairs were waking her up, and she couldn't "hold" it any more. Once I started running downstairs and putting her out as soon as the alarm went off, we solved the problem.

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#9 Old 03-26-2008, 04:47 PM
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Puppys have no real control over their elimination. They go like every 3-4 hours. Smaller dogs go more often.



Dogs are extremely clean animals and will not sleep near their refuse unless they are forced in a pet store condition. Keep the crate clean.



It bodes bad for future litter box or outdoor training to allow the pup to go in its crate.



You should get an X pen or somehow, using hardware store lattice, or 2X4s and chicken wire, create a larger "backyard" for the dog. Place something like a plastic tarp or old vynal on the floor to protect it.



Use newspapers and make a large "square" as a target for the puppy. newspaper train the pup first. until it is capeable of holding its bladder, you should not expect it to go only when you take him/her outside. Try to make the square and X pen limits at least 10 feet (6 feet will do, but more distance is more ideal. A wild dog will poop as far from her/his den as possible because preditors will come and kill her, and her puppies of she does not. Dogs will range far looking for the ideal Poop place (thus all the walking around and turning activity) from the opened door of the kennel.



Take some urine and doodoo and place it on the target and show it to the puppy. Don't force the dog's face in it. They have amazing scent organs and usually know what your are getting at. Keep the poop there, refresh with new poop till the pup "gets it". Once the puppy smells it, give treat (tiny treats like kitty food). Spend a weekend at home monitoring puppy. Find out by Timing between eating and drinking the time for the food to go through the pup. Usually the food they are pooping now is the food they ate yesterday. Make a serious study of pooping times. You will be able to tell how long it takes for water/food to go through the little intestinal tract. This sounds silly but it actually gives concrete results.



Behavior train. Be very happy and excited when pooping is done in the right spot. Modify, but never punish a puppy.



At this stage keep the crate door open so the puppy can go to the bathroom when he needs it.



I taught a pet store dog litter box training, so I spent a long time on this problem. I hope I am of help. If it is a toy dog, it might be



better to litter box train.





Have your friend or the puppys owner read some books on how dogs act in the wild and also how to train puppys. This stuff is in all those books. Knowledge will create a better bond between human and dog. The worst thing you can do is expect more "intellegence," or "human-type understanding" from a dog. They are small carnivorous animals. The human is the one with the brain. Extreemly well trained dogs get that way with 100% commitment by the human and constant training. Left alone, the dog will poop anywhere it darn well pleases.
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#10 Old 03-27-2008, 03:08 AM
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How old is the pup? If this happens every time the dog it left then don't rule out seperation anxiety, it is common in street dogs the suddenly find themselves with a family. Other than that ,as others have said, make the crate smaller, keep it clean and ensure that the pup goes out to eliminate very often and give lots of praise and treats for going in the right place.



Quote:
Have your friend or the puppys owner read some books on how dogs act in the wild and also how to train puppys. This stuff is in all those books. Knowledge will create a better bond between human and dog. The worst thing you can do is expect more "intellegence," or "human-type understanding" from a dog. They are small carnivorous animals. The human is the one with the brain.



I agree with reading puppy training books but surely its better to study how domestic dogs behave rather than wild canids? Domestic dogs are far removed from their wild cousins so comparing the two is about as good as comparing humans with chimps. Dogs have far more intellegence than many people give them credit and they have a hell of alot of brain.
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#11 Old 03-27-2008, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post






I agree with reading puppy training books but surely its better to study how domestic dogs behave rather than wild canids? Domestic dogs are far removed from their wild cousins so comparing the two is about as good as comparing humans with chimps. Dogs have far more intellegence than many people give them credit and they have a hell of alot of brain.



Either way is fine.
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#12 Old 03-27-2008, 09:54 AM
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But they still think a lot more like their wild cousins than they do like humans. When humans start expecting the dog to reason/think like a human, that's when problems arise.
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#13 Old 03-27-2008, 10:33 AM
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Well it has been a couple of days, and so far the puppy hasn't gone in the crate at night again. She's been taking her out at midnight, and again at 4:00. I think the poor puppy just couldn't hold it all night. I also found the insert for the crate so she can make it smaller.
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#14 Old 03-27-2008, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
But they still think a lot more like their wild cousins than they do like humans. When humans start expecting the dog to reason/think like a human, that's when problems arise.



Indeed treating a dog like a human is probably one of the worst thing you can do, a domestic dog should be treated like a domestic dog. What drives a border collie for example and how they interact with their enviroment is quite different to how a wolf sees the world. There is plenty of information looking at how domestic dogs function so looking at wolves is unecassery at best.
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#15 Old 03-27-2008, 01:54 PM
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Eh, we'll probably never agree on how similar or dissimilar wolves and domestic dogs are. But I have to tell you I love your avatar. Akitas are one of my favorite breeds.



Fritemare, glad to hear that. Puppies are like babies in that way. You don't get much sleep when they're young. Thankfully, puppies grow out of that stage much faster!
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#16 Old 03-28-2008, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Well it has been a couple of days, and so far the puppy hasn't gone in the crate at night again. She's been taking her out at midnight, and again at 4:00. I think the poor puppy just couldn't hold it all night. I also found the insert for the crate so she can make it smaller.



Great news, hope things continue to go well for her and the pup.



Quote:
Eh, we'll probably never agree on how similar or dissimilar wolves and domestic dogs are.



I'll agree to disagree then



Quote:
But I have to tell you I love your avatar. Akitas are one of my favorite breeds.



Akitas are just amazing. That's a picture of my working girl kaya when I first rescued her, she's alot slimmer and more toned now compared to the lazy lump she used to be!
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