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-   -   Vegans can not have cats (https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/24-companion-animals/220898-vegans-can-not-have-cats.html)

Necter 02-22-2017 11:48 AM

Vegans can not have cats
 
Unless they feed the cat a completely vegan diet, which may be expensive.

If you feed your cat non-vegan food, you should not call yourself a vegan. If you buy non-vegan food for your cat, you should not call yourself a vegan.

I don't understand how any vegan can in good conscience feed any pet non-vegan food.

There are some who excuse feeding meat to cats, calling themselves vegan at the same time. This is not possible.

If you are vegan, please make sure your cat is too.

leedsveg 02-22-2017 02:56 PM

Cat person to Tibbles the cat "Ever thought of going vegan Tibbles?"

Tibbles to cat person "Me? How?"


Lv

silva 02-22-2017 03:55 PM

If being isn't sustainable then I don't see how anyone can feel it's the right way for people to live
People have caused cats to become domestic animals, and just as we have a responsibility to protect the environment of other animals we've messed with, we have a responsibility to protect the ones we've taken in and rely on us.
I know the misery of feral colonies, the progressive, mutating diseases they suffer and spread, the destruction of native species.


What are your thoughts, @Necter , what should be done with these innocent beings, who mostly need the by products of foods people that don't need meat, but kill it anyway, leave behind?

It's this kind of comment that causes me to think some people are vegan only for their own egos, without concern for the rest of the world

Necter 02-22-2017 04:05 PM

@silva ,

I'm vegan FOR THE ANIMALS, NOT MY EGO. Are YOU even vegan, though?

jessandreia 02-22-2017 04:17 PM

I am starting to understand meat-eaters when they say vegans are crazy.

BlueMts 02-22-2017 07:32 PM

This why I don't call myself vegan. I won't even take a medication or supplement if it is in a gelatin capsule but I feed my cats commercial cat food which as, Silva, says is the left over bits that humans don't want.

NECTOR - Cats are obligate carnivores - they need to eat meat. I have tried vegan cat food (price is much lower these days) the fact is CATS DON'T LIKE IT. Also I have yet to see the research that proves that it supplies cats with a usable form of the things they need like taurine, arachadonic Acid & elcosapentonoic acid etc.

Once you domesticate it it is your responsibility so the human race has a responcibility to cats My cats are indoor cats so they don't go out killing things. I would feel very bad if that happened.

Tell me, do you ever accidentally step on a bug or an ant or an aphid or vacuum up a mite. Are they sentient ? I don't care - they have the will to live.

Do you take antibiotics if you have a bacterial infection to kill the bacteria. My husband was telling me the other day how some sort of structure (I have a bad memory for names) has been found in bacteria cells that are the same as humans have. Must have something to do with their DNA - can't remember. It means that either the bacteria are evolving or that we have a common ancestor with these bacteria. They are alive.

I want to be Jain but I know I could never do it because where I live you can't go anywhere with out killing something - ants and small insects, everywhere.

I would starve myself rather than eat meat (I won't even eat from something that has been used to cook meat or serve meat) and I loathe the dairy industry. But I will not starve my cats or kill them with inadequate inappropriate food. I adopted them to save their lives, would you have me kill them.

Everyone here is doing their best because of their love of animals or what ever other reason they have. People don't deserve to be attacked for that. They need to be encouraged. Especially the people who are new to vegetarianism and or veganism (I am new her but have been a veggie for many years)

Symondezyn 02-23-2017 10:18 AM

Labelling myself "vegan" is less important to me than ensuring my cat companions (who are all rescues, by the way) are eating a healthy, well-balanced diet for their CARNIVORE BODIES. If that makes me not a vegan in YOUR eyes, then fine. What you think of me is irrelevant. Forcing a cat to eat a vegan diet is the equivalent of forcing a deer to eat meat; it's simply not natural. Doing it for my own ego, so I can meet up to your (or anyone else's) standards of what a vegan "should be" is even more selfish, IMO, and I won't be bullied into feeling or thinking otherwise.

For the record, my decision to become vegan was largely influenced by my love of the feral cats I volunteer my time to help. I love them for who they are, not what humans want them to be.

jaskins 02-23-2017 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symondezyn (Post 4062178)
Labelling myself "vegan" is less important to me than ensuring my cat companions (who are all rescues, by the way) are eating a healthy, well-balanced diet for their CARNIVORE BODIES. If that makes me not a vegan in YOUR eyes, then fine. What you think of me is irrelevant. Forcing a cat to eat a vegan diet is the equivalent of forcing a deer to eat meat; it's simply not natural. Doing it for my own ego, so I can meet up to your (or anyone else's) standards of what a vegan "should be" is even more selfish, IMO, and I won't be bullied into feeling or thinking otherwise.

For the record, my decision to become vegan was largely influenced by my love of the feral cats I volunteer my time to help. I love them for who they are, not what humans want them to be.

THIS. I was trying to craft a response, but you said it better than I ever could have. I am not fully vegan yet, but am working to get closer and closer each day. I love my furry companions, I have two cats I rescued, and like you, they are my reason for becoming vegan. I love them so much that I'll do anything to keep them healthy and happy, which includes feeding them a non-vegan diet. And I'm okay with that.

Purp 02-23-2017 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necter (Post 4061802)
Unless they feed the cat a completely vegan diet, which may be expensive.

If you feed your cat non-vegan food, you should not call yourself a vegan. If you buy non-vegan food for your cat, you should not call yourself a vegan.

I don't understand how any vegan can in good conscience feed any pet non-vegan food.

There are some who excuse feeding meat to cats, calling themselves vegan at the same time. This is not possible.

If you are vegan, please make sure your cat is too.

Should I tell my cat he adopted the wrong person? He came to my house late one night (or early one morning, if you prefer) and just meowed loudly, "Let me IN!!"

zuenka 02-23-2017 05:56 PM

u can easily get your cats to be vegan, if you're afraid of their bacterias, as animal eaters. But you don't need if you use natural antibiotics or drugs for you and for them, and for your husband as well :-) I had cats for several years and where doing fine with homemade fish with a generous spoon of good olive-oil and a variable amount of oat-flakes .. every day. It's not that they need to eat meat to feel fine, they just need more protein than dogs. And of course for being vegan is necessary to love vegan philosophy, be able to prepare tasty&healthy vegan food and that's it! You don't even need to eat 100% vegan food to call your self a vegan .. that's the other way 'round in philosophy when moral and ethic are both important ingredients of your counsciousness: we have to avoid fascistic ways of being; in Buddhism it's called Dotai Ishin and it's given by nazism durin' 2.world war, or Stalin's communism (uniformed whores in Morrissey'slang).
The way that will drive u to enlightment, or comprehension (there are different stades, but that's not the point) is Itai-Doshin. You can read more evt. about Sokagakkai; my cats used to like listening to me while chanting and burning spices .. though, they prefer to eat them fresh and I had to punish them, putting them outside :-( They never learn, as their memory is too short&their brain too little.

Vicky23 02-23-2017 07:01 PM

Interesting, what cats think about vegan diet?

BlueMts 02-23-2017 07:02 PM

Zuenka:

Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores. Eating a meat diet provides needed vitamins and fatty acids in their pre-formed state, cats have lost the ability to make amino acids such as Trytophan and taurine and anginine which is very, very important to their health. Yes they need more protein because they make their blood glucose from protein and there is protein in things other than meat BUT cats have a very short digestive tract not the long gut that is needed to break down plant materials nor do they have the gut bacteria that is needed to break down plant material. Plant material also does't contain the amino acids they need.

Also, intelligence is NOT related to brain size. Cats can and do learn but punishment never taught a cat or any other animal anything but fear. If you put them outside to punish them they probably used the opportunity to hunt so they could survive so you were actually rewarding them.

121938 02-24-2017 01:14 PM

So Nectar, what do you suggest people do, who've adopted a vegan lifestyle but had a cat already? Or what if someone was a vegan and a lost/abandoned cat shows up starving on their doorstep? Should they get rid of the cat? Should they take that lost animal to the shelter knowing full well that the adult, black cat may languish in a kill shelter until they finally kill it?

Thalassa 02-24-2017 04:08 PM

Ah, yes, because all good, "real" vegans turn a blind eye to animal cruelty, and allow abandoned or stray feral cats to perish horribly on urban streets. Or they euthanize reasonably healthy cats for no reason. Because they can't afford vegan cat food, amirite?

As someone who has animal rescue/feral feeding as an interest, I find your OP facile and absurd. You clearly haven't thought this through. My location does not say "cat farm" because I'm a breeder, or because I think it's cute to keep pets, it's because I spend time helping care for a fellow vegetarians animal rescue and am part of a feral feeding program on my campus. Cats can't make it in the "wilds" of Los Angeles.

Thalassa 02-24-2017 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMts (Post 4062250)
Zuenka:

Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores. Eating a meat diet provides needed vitamins and fatty acids in their pre-formed state, cats have lost the ability to make amino acids such as Trytophan and taurine and anginine which is very, very important to their health. Yes they need more protein because they make their blood glucose from protein and there is protein in things other than meat BUT cats have a very short digestive tract not the long gut that is needed to break down plant materials nor do they have the gut bacteria that is needed to break down plant material. Plant material also does't contain the amino acids they need.

Also, intelligence is NOT related to brain size. Cats can and do learn but punishment never taught a cat or any other animal anything but fear. If you put them outside to punish them they probably used the opportunity to hunt so they could survive so you were actually rewarding them.

You cannot train cats out of their instinct to hunt. It's cruel to imagine one could. That being said, trap and release neuter/spay can reduce domestic cats' impact on wildlife (I'm also a member of Audubon, so I see both sides) and a friend of mine suggested, that if the only problem we had in the world was "welfare-ist" animal agriculture for the sake of feeding domesticated animals, and no human animal product consumption, then factory farms wouldn't exist, and we could be stricter on animal cruelty laws, as well as helping the environment. As it stands, the vast majority of commercial pet food is "excess" deemed inedible for omnivorous humans who can't digest blood, bone, hair, and entrails like obligate carnivores (i.e. cats) so there are no special cat food farms, these are the cast offs, of human meat eaters. Why deny companion animals the cast offs, of the oppressor?

Thalassa 02-24-2017 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silva (Post 4061890)
If being isn't sustainable then I don't see how anyone can feel it's the right way for people to live
People have caused cats to become domestic animals, and just as we have a responsibility to protect the environment of other animals we've messed with, we have a responsibility to protect the ones we've taken in and rely on us.
I know the misery of feral colonies, the progressive, mutating diseases they suffer and spread, the destruction of native species.


What are your thoughts, @Necter , what should be done with these innocent beings, who mostly need the by products of foods people that don't need meat, but kill it anyway, leave behind?

It's this kind of comment that causes me to think some people are vegan only for their own egos, without concern for the rest of the world


EXACTLY. As someone who sees my future as a professional naturalist, or even environmental scientist, I take this analogy to heart. "Welp, if it's not 100% sustainable then either kill yourself, or why even try?" This "why even try" garbage tends to affect the American mentality in particular, for some bizarre reason, but yeah. ..neither suicide, nor hedonistic slow double homicide-suicide are good rational choices for vegans OR environmentalists.

BlueMts 02-24-2017 07:55 PM

The only solution I can see is cultured meat. ie lab grown meat. Scientists have been able to do it since 2013.The only contribution to be made from an animal is a few stem cells to get the process started. They made a hamburger. It didn't taste quite right ( if I recall correctly) but would that bother a cat or dog.

Apparently it was too slow a process at that time for it to succeed in the market but if they keep working on it they could supply the pet industry with out the need for animals to suffer and die.
All people vegan or veg. all cats eating cultured meat. No more animal farms needed. YAY

All that would be needed then would be to get rid of "sport" hunters and sadist who just like to hurt and kill.

marvanalsca 03-18-2017 09:53 AM

Vegan can have cats as long the understand cats are carnivorous
 
I think vegan people can have cats as pet as log as they understand and respect that cats are carnivorous and need eating meet (around 70% of their diet). They are not like dogs, which can survive in a more diverse diet.

In fact, cats cannot tolerate even some plants and herbs that are perfectly harmless to humans or dogs, so if you force a cat into a vegan diet you will actually hurt the animal making it sick from malnutrition or even die, which will go against all veganism stands for.

However, there are some famous people like Jackson Galaxy who understand this, he's got 2 cats and both of them not just eat commercial dry cat food but also are on a row meet diet. Thus, all comes down to whether your are able or not to accept that cats are cats.

So, if you are a vegan and really cannot stand the presence of meat in your house, then you are better off not having a cat, because having one and forcing her into a vegan diet would be not just plain ignorance but also animal abuse.

After all, will you force a lion to eat beans, lettuce and tomatoes so you do not feel bad for the gazelle he hunts?

APhilosophicalGent 06-13-2017 05:33 AM

Hard one. I never had money to buy vegan dog food for my dog (RIP, darling girl). It would've required me constantly mail ordering (inconvenient) something way more expensive than supermarket stuff. I also fed her some human food.

I was very particular in always avoiding any meat that contained young animals - NO lamb or veal products.

If I had a cat I think I'd try to maximise the fish part of their diet. The fish's fairly quick gasping death is far less gruesome than what occurs in land animals. I think fish also have a lower consciousness level. It would not sit well with me imagining one of those mighty cows with their thoughtful gaze being slaughtered (many times over when you consider a cat easily lives well into its second decade) for a pampered lap cat. I do take the point, tho, that it's likely leftovers that go to pet food.

felpel91 06-13-2017 09:23 AM

How in the world is depriving a cat the food they need to survive considered ethical or vegan?

You can support companies that at least have ethically produced cat food. But to feed them a vegan diet is just animal abuse.

Should conservatories trying to save endangered carnivorous species also feed them a vegan diet?

The goal of veganism is to reduce the harm to animals. Feeding a carnivorous animal a non-meat diet is harming them.

David3 06-13-2017 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felpel91 (Post 4093258)

The goal of veganism is to reduce the harm to animals. Feeding a carnivorous animal a non-meat diet is harming them.


Not necessarily.

The American Veterinary Medical Association has not published any statement discouraging people from feeding their cats commercially-prepared vegetarian cat foods that meet the nutritional and labeling requirements of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Dog and Cat Food Nutrient Profiles.

The American Veterinary Medical Association has published a peer-reviewed analysis of 24 different commercial vegetarian dog and cat foods: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...avma.247.4.385

This analysis did find that, of the 24 vegetarian pet foods, most did not comply with the AAFCO labeling regulations. There were also concerns about amino acid adequacy.

If a person is interested in feed a vegetarian diet to their cat companion, be sure to look for commercially-prepared cat foods with the AAFCO label. You should also tell your cat's veterinarian that you are feeding them a vegetarian diet.


http://www.aafco.org/Consumers
.

BlueMts 06-13-2017 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David3 (Post 4093298)
Not necessarily.

The American Veterinary Medical Association has not published any statement discouraging people from feeding their cats commercially-prepared vegetarian cat foods that meet the nutritional and labeling requirements of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Dog and Cat Food Nutrient Profiles.

The American Veterinary Medical Association has published a peer-reviewed analysis of 24 different commercial vegetarian dog and cat foods: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...avma.247.4.385

This analysis did find that, of the 24 vegetarian pet foods, most did not comply with the AAFCO labeling regulations. There were also concerns about amino acid adequacy.

If a person is interested in feed a vegetarian diet to their cat companion, be sure to look for commercially-prepared cat foods with the AAFCO label. You should also tell your cat's veterinarian that you are feeding them a vegetarian diet.

The main problem with this is will the cat eat it. Cats are fussy - some of them very fussy - and will often not eat even a new meat cat food let alone a vegan one.With a lot of cats you can't even give medication in food (unless you can hide it in cheese and then they are likely to eat the cheese and leave the medication) . Cats want what they want and are quite prepared to starve until they get it or until you find something they are prepared to accept as a substitute and that can be hard to do.

APhilosophicalGent 06-14-2017 03:37 AM

Yeah I like kitties.

No stats to back it up but wouldn't be surprised if we vegans are even MORE inclined to like cats than others. Because we're more partial to see beauty in animals. Popularity of the cat videos show that cats are the cutest of them all:laugh: Yet these very animals are pretty much the LEAST vegan creature imaginable. Bit ironic...

I do wonder if, over time, humanity needs to move away from cats. Of course no healthy cat should ever be euthanased.

I feel mankind has a kind of covenant with dogs and cats and thus I'd never suggest making existing cats unhealthy. As a species they comforted enough old widow(er)s and lonely children etc etc to have a special dispensation. When push comes to shove, a domestic cat's life simply IS worth more than the life of many other life forms. But maybe if humanity ever properly moves forward, it may decide complete pet cat sterilisation is best.

As long as there are pet cats, some human somewhere has to be killing animals. But who knows, perhaps the lab grown meat will become cost effective to produce, or the vegan cat food will be crafted in a more nuanced cat-tasty way.

Poppy 06-14-2017 10:36 AM

Just another reason why dogs are so much better than cats anyway! :)

Joking, of course. I have dogs (3, and all are vegan) because of my husband's allergies to cats. But on the rare occasion I get to foster a cat for a night or two, I feed it cat food.

felpel91 06-28-2017 10:14 AM

It is still my opinion that denying a carnivorous animal the food they were designed to eat is wrong. I love my cat very much, and really could not imagine doing that to her. There are many risks with feeding them a vegan diet, and to me those risks are not worth the life of my baby. I do stick with foods they would naturally be able to get in the wild, (i.e. no beef, pork, etc). Dogs are a bit different, although I'm not sure I would be able to completely forgo meat for them either. We can reduce the need for meat in other ways, but I'm not comfy potentially hurting my cat when it's completely natural for her to eat meat anyway. But to each their own I suppose.

zombiesprinkles 07-14-2017 04:07 AM

Meat is usually listed as the 3rd ingredient on packages of commercial brand cat food, so most house cats don't consume much meat anyway.

David3 07-14-2017 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombiesprinkles (Post 4103866)
Meat is usually listed as the 3rd ingredient on packages of commercial brand cat food, so most house cats don't consume much meat anyway.


That actually doesn't appear to be true. Meat is usually listed first on the commercial cat foods that I've seen.

Purina is a long-time popular brand of commercial cat food. The ingredients for Purina Cat Chow are:

Poultry by-product meal, corn meal, corn gluten meal, ground whole wheat, brewers rice, soy flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols, fish meal, animal liver flavor, meat and bone meal, phosphoric acid, salt, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, potassium chloride, taurine, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 2, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Link: https://www.catchow.com/products/complete-formula/



Whiskas is another popular brand of cat food. The ingredients for Whiskas "Salmon & Shrimp Flavor" cat food are:

POULTRY BY-PRODUCT MEAL (SOURCE OF GLUCOSAMINE & CHONDROITIN SULFATE), GROUND YELLOW CORN, GROUND WHEAT, CORN GLUTEN MEAL, SOYBEAN MEAL, ANIMAL FAT (PRESERVED WITH BHA AND CITRIC ACID), NATURAL FLAVOR, SALT, SALMON MEAL, SHRIMP MEAL, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, TAURINE, DL-METHIONINE, VITAMINS (CHOLINE CHLORIDE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, NIACIN, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT, D-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, BIOTIN, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, FOLIC ACID), MINERALS (ZINC SULFATE, COPPER SULFATE, MANGANESE SULFATE, POTASSIUM IODIDE), YUCCA SCHIDIGERA EXTRACT.

Link: http://www.whiskas.com/Products/Prod...ns#ingredients
.

zombiesprinkles 07-14-2017 11:57 AM

Oh, I was looking at the cheap packages I buy the feral cat who is just using me for my food. I have Friskies and Meow Mix. Both of them list yellow corn as the main ingredient followed by soybean meal and corn gluten meal. I just buy what they have at the gas station across the street.

Really tho, how I was thinking about this was that if cats can live fine off this stuff when it doesn't look like it has much meat in it, then if we could get them to eat it, they might be able to live fine on a vegan diet but I don't really know anything about this.

silva 07-14-2017 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombiesprinkles (Post 4103994)
Oh, I was looking at the cheap packages I buy the feral cat who is just using me for my food. I have Friskies and Meow Mix. Both of them list yellow corn as the main ingredient followed by soybean meal and corn gluten meal. I just buy what they have at the gas station across the street.

Really tho, how I was thinking about this was that if cats can live fine off this stuff when it doesn't look like it has much meat in it, then if we could get them to eat it, they might be able to live fine on a vegan diet but I don't really know anything about this.

That is pretty much equal to feeding ophaned children nothing buy chips and twinkies!

Cats cannot properly digest grains, and they can't obtain many vitamins from plant sources. They need meat for taurine as well as vitamin A. They cannot convert the missing amino acids into complete proteins as ominvores can. Hence, obligate carnivores
Vegan foods do things to change the way the tuarine and a and other vitamins and protein work. I really know little about vegan cat foods, other than they need much more research.

Feeding a cat the cheap foods as you list, as well as the popular ones with grains and by products is probably equal to feeding a cat an expensive vegan diet

I'm certainly not against the idea of vegan cat foods, but I'd rather spend the money getting requirements for spay/neuter and indoor only. That will do far more than reducing foods

zombiesprinkles 07-14-2017 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silva (Post 4104050)
That is pretty much equal to feeding ophaned children nothing buy chips and twinkies!

She's a wild cat. I know she can hunt because occasionally she leaves a delicious dead bird or mouse on my doorstep for me. I'm sure she gets plenty of meat.


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