is emes kosher gelatin REALLY vegetarian? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-02-2005, 10:52 AM
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http://www.vegparadise.com/news53.html



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The ingredient label for Emes Kosher-Jel lists carageenan, locust bean gum, and maltodextrin. The package indicates "Plain Parave Gelatin" that is "Unflavored - Unsweetened" Also included is the statement, "Contains no meat, no dairy products." For those who are kosher "pareve or parve" means no meat or dairy products, although it may include eggs.



Although the package says the gelatin is kosher, there is no indication of the organization that has certified the product as kosher.



None of the three items in the product contain any protein. Yet, when the product was analyzed in a laboratory, it was found to contain protein.



As far back as March 1997 Professor Ken Burke of the School of Allied Health Professions Nutrition and Dietetics at Loma Linda University in Loma Linda, California, began his investigation of Emes Kosher-Jel. Dr. Burke concluded that "Emes Kosher-Jel reacts like gelatin and not like products made with carageenan and/or locust bean gum."



i just got myself three packages of this stuff a few months ago, so excited, because i'd never had or used it before. and now this.
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#2 Old 06-02-2005, 10:58 AM
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When you can't even trust an ingredients list on the package, what can you trust?

*this space not for sale*
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#3 Old 06-02-2005, 12:43 PM
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Well, gelatin is made of dead animals almost always, when they say kosher gelatin/it's not made of meat they normally mean it is made of fish. So personally I would just not buy stuff that has it.
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#4 Old 06-02-2005, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrrrl79 View Post

Well, gelatin is made of dead animals almost always, when they say kosher gelatin/it's not made of meat they normally mean it is made of fish. So personally I would just not buy stuff that has it.



right, except that emes gelatin does not list any kind of animal or fish product on their packaging and so for years vegans and vegetarians have been using it, veg*n org's have been promoting and selling it, and lots of veg*ns have been eating it!



what about all those pre-packaged vegan marshmallows on the market now? i am pretty sure those companies have been using emes or other kosher gelatins in their recipes...
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#5 Old 06-02-2005, 08:16 PM
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What on earth? What is that stuff?
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#6 Old 06-02-2005, 08:20 PM
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gelatin is used to create jell-o, marshmallows, and other confections and desserts.
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#7 Old 06-02-2005, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreeli View Post

gelatin is used to create jell-o, marshmallows, and other confections and desserts.



Sorry, I know what gelatin is, I was asking what Emes gelatin is because it appears to contain protein and no organization has certified the product as kosher.
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#8 Old 06-02-2005, 08:24 PM
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I've thought about buying it. I heard people say how good it is. That makes me mad. I should have Ludwig analyze some. He works in a lab all day with proteins.
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#9 Old 06-02-2005, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbow_clouds View Post

Sorry, I know what gelatin is, I was asking what Emes gelatin is because it appears to contain protein and no organization has certified the product as kosher.



so your question was rhetorical.
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#10 Old 06-02-2005, 08:39 PM
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Very bad news. I'm going to check with our vegan marshmallow supplier and see if they are using Emes. Cosmo's may have to pull them if this is true.
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#11 Old 06-02-2005, 11:40 PM
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Unfortunately given the ingredients and their use of "jel" it doesn't look good. Vegan supreme marshmallows are definately made with emes. Hopefully both companies can reformulate.



This especially sucks given that the only other brand of vegan marshmallows I ever knew of was emes, and everyone I know that made them at home used emes. I wonder how possible it is to even make vegan marshmallows at this point.
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#12 Old 06-03-2005, 12:02 AM
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From wikipedia:



Most commercial marshmallows are unsuitable for strict vegetarians, since the gelatin used is almost universally derived from food animal hides or bones. Similarly, commercial kosher pareve marshmallows usually use fish gelatin. Vegetable-derived gums often make an unsatisfactory product that does not have the spring or firmness expected of gelatin-based marshmallows.



It is possible to make marshmallows suitable for vegetarians (though not vegans) by making them the traditional way, using powdered marshmallow root, egg whites, cane sugar, and vanilla extract.
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#13 Old 06-03-2005, 01:56 AM
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What??? That's crap! I have a whole big stupid package of that in the cupboard.
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#14 Old 06-03-2005, 02:04 AM
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I thought carageenan was the gelatin-like product in Emes.... seaweed-derived, but sets up sort of like gelatin. (Though the one time I tried to use it, it didn't set up well at all. Stupid stuff.)



As far as I know, it's actually vegan...
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#15 Old 06-03-2005, 02:29 AM
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Is there a way you can buy all three ingredients separately and test them out yourself? If Emes gave the amounts of each ingredient and one mixed just those and got the same effect, wouldn't it be proof no animal ingredients were in there?
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#16 Old 06-03-2005, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post

I thought carageenan was the gelatin-like product in Emes.... seaweed-derived, but sets up sort of like gelatin. (Though the one time I tried to use it, it didn't set up well at all. Stupid stuff.)



As far as I know, it's actually vegan...



Carageenan is a vegan ingredient, but the I guess the studies are showing that what is in the package may not be what's listed on the label. From the article:



"Dr. Burke spelled out the differences between vegetable gums and gelatin as gelling agents. In boiling water, gelatin is clear while vegetable gum is cloudy. Gelatin requires refrigeration to set while vegetable gums will become firm at room temperature. When a gelatin product is stirred it liquefies and then resets. Vegetable gum products do not liquefy and do not reset. When tested, Emes Kosher Jel was clear in boiling water, required refrigeration to set, and liquefied when stirred, then reset .

One of the major differences between gelatin and vegetable gum is the reaction to fresh pineapple. Fresh pineapple prevents gelatin from setting but has no effect on vegetable gum's ability to set.

Dr. Burke pointed out that, "The action of fresh pineapple is due to its content of a protein-splitting enzyme, bromelin which is specific for collagen (from which gelatin is derived)."
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#17 Old 06-03-2005, 09:51 AM
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I bought this kind of vegan marshmellow at my local food co-op:

http://www.veganstore.com/index-stor...temsperpage=12

Of course, I paid nearly $5 for a bag.

From what I can tell, they are definitely vegan. My bag says carageenan and the website says vegetable gel. Either way, they taste awesome!
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#18 Old 06-03-2005, 10:40 AM
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I'm only going on one Emes experience here. When I made it, it was cloudy. I remember being disappointed (because I was making a jello brain and was planning to light it from underneath).



It did require refrigeration to set -- but never set properly at all. It didn't behave like any gelatin I've experienced. Of course, I'm not a scientist, and I didn't try to recreate my results. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has used it multiple times.



ETA: I should say, I've never made the non-veg kind either. I'd love to hear from someone who's made both successfully.



Also, I'm not trying to debunk the research that Kreeli brought forward. But it would well and truly suck if the Emes company turned out to be lying scumbags.
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#19 Old 06-03-2005, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SallyK View Post

I bought this kind of vegan marshmellow at my local food co-op:

http://www.veganstore.com/index-stor...temsperpage=12

Of course, I paid nearly $5 for a bag.

From what I can tell, they are definitely vegan. My bag says carageenan and the website says vegetable gel. Either way, they taste awesome!



Does the bag say just carageenan, or carageenan, locust bean gum, and maltodextrin?
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#20 Old 06-04-2005, 04:23 AM
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From what I know, products that are animal-derived can still be kosher if they go through such lengthy processing as to make them virtually non-animal-identifiable. Like sugars that are sifted through the charcoal of animal bones--since the charcoal is so removed from its animal source (apparently), the sugar is considered kosher still. I wouldn't consider it vegan, tho.
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#21 Old 06-04-2005, 04:01 PM
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If you aren't sure about emes brand you can buy plain agar and add your own sugar and flavoring. As I recall, the agar I once bought, and used, set up very similarly to gelatin. Agar has long been customarily used as a culture medium for bacteria, in biology labs.



There are also other kosher pareve gelatin dessert mixes on the market, such as Rokeach, I think, that list the ingredients as being agar, sugar, and flavoring.
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#22 Old 06-04-2005, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

If you aren't sure about emes brand you can buy plain agar and add your own sugar and flavoring. As I recall, the agar I once bought, and used, set up very similarly to gelatin. Agar has long been customarily used as a culture medium for bacteria, in biology labs.



There are also other kosher pareve gelatin dessert mixes on the market, such as Rokeach, I think, that list the ingredients as being agar, sugar, and flavoring.



With respect to making marshmallows, agar agar doesn't work according to anectdotal evidence.



Agar agar does work splendidly for jelling fruit juice etc (perhaps better than gelatin).
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#23 Old 06-04-2005, 04:37 PM
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http://www.barryfarm.com/desserts.htm

"All gelatins are "Emes Brand" and contain NO animal by-products."



I have been eating this stuff for years.

I hope I'm not a pesce-vegetarian!
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#24 Old 06-04-2005, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delicious View Post

http://www.barryfarm.com/desserts.htm

"All gelatins are "Emes Brand" and contain NO animal by-products."



they say that because that is what emes has been telling people for years. the veracity of this claim is now what is in dispute, since the gelatin has tested positive for protein (which it shouldn't if it really is vegetarian).
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#25 Old 06-04-2005, 04:47 PM
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Seaweed wouldn't have any protein?
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#26 Old 06-04-2005, 04:53 PM
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Traditionally, seaweed has been used in treating arthritis, constipation, nervous disorders rheumatism, colds, and skin irritations. These are all conditions that respond to magnesium, calcium, protein and some of the other highly digestible nutrients found in sea vegetables. Vitamin K, another nutrient found in seaweed, helps to coagulate blood and is most beneficial for internal and external bleeding.

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lseavegetables.htm



?
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#27 Old 06-04-2005, 04:55 PM
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okay, did you read the first post in this thread?
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#28 Old 06-04-2005, 05:18 PM
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Does seaweed contain protein? Yes it does.



Does Emes Kosher Jel claim to contain whole seaweed? No it does not.



Emes Kosher Jel contains carrageenan which is a polysaccharide (read starch) extracted from seaweed. Carrageenan contains no protein, neither does locust bean gum or maltodextrin. If Emes Kosher Jel contains protein, the ingredients list is not correct.
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#29 Old 06-04-2005, 05:24 PM
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I'm sorry. I guess I'm feeling a bit panicked about it.
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#30 Old 06-04-2005, 05:55 PM
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I think we all are. I'm resolved not to feel bad about it either way because we all had every reason to believe that it was vegan.
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