I hate cowardly meat eaters - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 09-05-2015, 10:32 AM
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Angry I hate cowardly meat eaters

I constantly feel like I am surrounded by psychopaths. I am the only vegan in my family at age 16, people in school supporting the second amendment so they can hunt makes me have very violent thoughts towards them, and what made me create my profile was some motherfu&#3^ who pushed me over the edge when trying to debate with him on the YouTube comments section.
The idiot first showed his stupidity by trying to say that vegans were immune to logic... right... And he actually acted like being an atheist made him entitled to not give a damn about species with less power than us. Because even though there is no destiny in atheism, he was actually trying to argue that evolution showed that we were MEANT to inflict needless torture on species with less power. His last pathetic attempt at trying to prove that he was right was saying that b12 was an animal product. He didn't care to get offline to research once I provided him with a book suggestion, so when I showed him a link that clearly stated that people could be healthy on a plant based diet and that supplements were available, something must have signaled in his pathetic brain that made him ignore that first thing it said, and he acted as if vegans taking those supplements were taking non-vegan supplements. smh
Keep in mind that I don't hate atheists. Being vegan turned me into an atheist myself once I read the Bible and saw how much it mentioned animal sacrifice. (I live in a Christian family.) But this guy was stupid. He was seriously so infuriating that he made me want to slam his dam^ head against a wall and then make an example out of him by executing him via the electric chair for trying so illogically to defend animal torture.
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#2 Old 09-05-2015, 11:08 AM
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You have to not let people like that get under your skin. My family is full of those kind of meat eaters who all feel me not supporting animal exploitation is an affront to "god", America and all things right in the world I guess growing up in it and sticking whole-heartedly to my beliefs made me grow a thick skin in regards to dealing with the verbal abuse (some) meat eaters seem to enjoy inflicting upon vegetarians and vegans. You'll eventually get to the point you just tune these kinds of idiots out.

BTW, if it's online, don't even bother debating. Just ignore them. It's more difficult with your family, but theres no need to frustrate yourself by engaging in arguments with idiotic strangers.
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#3 Old 09-05-2015, 11:57 AM
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How long have you been vegan, Jek the immortal? If not long then you would also be hating a large part of yourself. Not good! There is a lot to learn about how to relate to this change in dietary difference that you are now on... And how to understand those who are not on the same diet as you are. Just because we recently changed our diet doesn't make us better than those who haven't. And your attitude shows that you are not better than them, yet. Maybe some day you will be better than them, but not yet, it takes time. Compassion is a thing that we are developing into as vegans. It is good that you have started your journey at such a young age. You are lucky. Compassion is for the animals and for each other, even meat eaters who have not figured it out yet. They need to go through their learning processes and it may take them a long time.
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#4 Old 09-05-2015, 12:56 PM
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I have been vegan for at least a year.
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#5 Old 09-05-2015, 01:32 PM
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You weren't a terrible person when you were a meat-eater were you? You have the right direction now, but still have a ways to go before having really separated from fifteen years of meat-eating. I don't really wish to disagree with your feelings that you have about meat eating (it is warped) but learning to deal well with what is going on in this world is important. It is best to continue to really get further on the journey that being a vegan means and let others do what they do. Help those who are receptive to being helped and get really good at it... this world does need the kind of help that you would be able to give if you get good at it. That is important.

Caring about our health is caring about our very state of being and future which is a very good thing to be seriously concerned about making the most of.

 

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#6 Old 09-05-2015, 03:02 PM
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Oh no, honey, don't read YouTube comments. Never read YouTube comments! The worst sort of people comment there. It's really better to just never scroll down.
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#7 Old 09-05-2015, 05:10 PM
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Oh no, honey, don't read YouTube comments. Never read YouTube comments! The worst sort of people comment there. It's really better to just never scroll down.
You obviously haven't read the comments under any Yahoo news article. Those winners make youtube seem like an ivy league school.
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#8 Old 09-05-2015, 05:17 PM
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Seriously, in response to the OP, I remember my mother and her first cousin started laughing uncontrollably when I referred to my rescued pet guinea pigs as refugees who are in limbo because they've been domesticated, so they can't live in the wild, but they're not fully integrated into human society because of speciesism.

I was only trying to explain this article about domestication in a sentence or two, because they were asking me about "breeing" or "raising" guinea pigs or some other sort of exploitative nonsense.

As soon as I used the word refugee, they couldn't contain themselves. I haven't forgiven either one of them since. And this didn't happen when I was a young, impressionable, sensitive teenager. I was probably about 30 or so.
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#9 Old 09-05-2015, 06:33 PM
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All of these replies are appreciated... I only want to say that if it is based on my judgment, I was despicable when I ate meat... Just obliviously evil.
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#10 Old 09-05-2015, 07:47 PM
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All of these replies are appreciated... I only want to say that if it is based on my judgment, I was despicable when I ate meat... Just obliviously evil.
Were you aware of where meat came from and how it was obtained? Did you have all the facts you have now (and given you age) the option to be vegan? Or were you raised in the typical home where meat was just another food item, and you really didn't make any greater connection to where it came from than xyz animal and/or assumed the animals were raised on "happy" farms with sunshine and rainbows and/or that you would become ill without meat?

If you knew what you know now, were able to and STILL chose to eat meat, then you are justified to be upset at yourself over it. If you were simply ignorant to the facts and had no clue, how can you consider yourself a bad person for doing something you didn't even realize was wrong? We don't know right from wrong until we're taught otherwise.
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#11 Old 09-05-2015, 08:43 PM
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This is something all of us feel once in a while. Just try to not let it bring you down. There are always people who don't listen to reason.
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#12 Old 09-05-2015, 11:35 PM
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W e l c o m e !

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My usual answer: I have never heard a convincing reason to eat meat.
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#13 Old 09-06-2015, 07:41 AM
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I didn't know where the animal products I was eating came from and was raised in that typical sort of family... Except, there may be something I was guilty of, about when I fished, aware of their sentience. Unless it is true that I could still be evil, that event makes me suffer from an inferiority complex, for it makes me want to make examples out of those illogical people not because I ignore that I once was a speciesist... But to try to scare people so much that it would undo my evil actions.
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#14 Old 09-06-2015, 02:11 PM
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You have a lot to learn, Jek.

The Buddha once said:

Quote:
Can there exist any greater fool, than one in Anger?

When someone has done us wrong,
We fly into hot rage and fierce fury!
But why then do we thus repeat and commit
the same evil as we just blamed the others?

If somebody while wishing to worry you,
Has done you some wrong and vile thing,
Why do you worry then yourself,
And thereby satisfy his wish?

If you are in rage, and longing for revenge,
whether you return some evil to him or not,
You will evermore torture yourself with the
pain that always inherently is born of any hate!

If, out of rage and anger, your enemy
Should do you some real wrong & harm,
Why do you imitate his evil behaviour
By growing blind hate in your own mind?

That wrath and hate, through which the foe
Has done you some unpleasant thing,
That inner hate, indeed, you should destroy!
Then how can you worry without any cause?

Since moment after moment all vanishes,
so too will vanish those five groups and
clusters of clinging that have done you harm!
Who is it then you're angry with?
Nothing is left out there! It is all gone now!

If one person hates another person,
Whom does he hurt most, if not himself!
We are thus the cause of our own pain,
Why then do we hate the others after all?
Source: Visuddhimagga IX 22
Your post was full of hate and images of violence. It reflects very poorly on vegans as a whole.

You will never change anyone's mind by bludgeoning them over the head. In general, the harder you push, the harder they will resist.

I suggest simply living your life in as virtuous a manner as possible. When you encounter people who, at that time in their own lives are open to change, you will have an impact upon them and inspire them to change.

Maybe they will change because they see the great health benefits being a vegan has brought you. Maybe it will be because they see what a kind and compassionate person you are. I absolutely guarantee it won't happen if you are annoying, preachy, or self-righteous.

Knowing that there are 16-year-olds as passionate about animal welfare as you are makes me feel good about the future.
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#15 Old 09-06-2015, 06:39 PM
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Great post Bob, simply brilliant, very compassionate yet truthful.
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#16 Old 09-07-2015, 03:21 AM
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You have a lot to learn, Jek.



The Buddha once said:







Your post was full of hate and images of violence. It reflects very poorly on vegans as a whole.



You will never change anyone's mind by bludgeoning them over the head. In general, the harder you push, the harder they will resist.



I suggest simply living your life in as virtuous a manner as possible. When you encounter people who, at that time in their own lives are open to change, you will have an impact upon them and inspire them to change.



Maybe they will change because they see the great health benefits being a vegan has brought you. Maybe it will be because they see what a kind and compassionate person you are. I absolutely guarantee it won't happen if you are annoying, preachy, or self-righteous.



Knowing that there are 16-year-olds as passionate about animal welfare as you are makes me feel good about the future.

i am a Buddhist myself, but passive peaceful action does not always deter bullies.
That's why laws put people in jail. If there is threat of violence against your actions you would always think twice.

Btw, this is not me saying we should take arms against meat eaters, we would lose spectacularly. I'm just saying that's how the world works.
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#17 Old 09-07-2015, 03:47 AM
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we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.
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#18 Old 09-07-2015, 03:48 AM
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we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.
No, we don't.
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#19 Old 09-07-2015, 03:59 AM
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agree to disagree but if this is a vegan forum ...

cannot believe the complacency and tolerance for murder here

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#20 Old 09-07-2015, 04:40 AM
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agree to disagree but if this is a vegan forum ...

cannot believe the complacency and tolerance for murder here
Nobody here condones animal slaughter, but if you genuinely believe that sending innocent people to jail for eating meat is a viable and just solution, you will find yourself in the minority.
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#21 Old 09-07-2015, 05:44 AM
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Yes, I don't think jail is the answer, even if there were enough cells to go around. Besides, give the government power like that, and you never know what you end up with.

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#22 Old 09-07-2015, 06:18 AM
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we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.
You mean that hypothetical "we". The hypothetical "if 90% of the world were vegan instead of 1%"

That line of thinking threatens the existing 1%
How about we strive to make being vegan seem obtainable and beneficial instead?

You seem to think that if someone says they thought about trying veg'n but all the extremists drove them away are lying.
I may not have totally converted anyone (ASAIK), but I have gotten many who have felt that way to eat veg'n a whole lot more, after they had completely turned to think it was a stupid idea
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#23 Old 09-07-2015, 06:32 AM
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You mean that hypothetical "we". The hypothetical "if 90% of the world were vegan instead of 1%"

That line of thinking threatens the existing 1%
How about we strive to make being vegan seem obtainable and beneficial instead?

You seem to think that if someone says they thought about trying veg'n but all the extremists drove them away are lying.
I may not have totally converted anyone (ASAIK), but I have gotten many who have felt that way to eat veg'n a whole lot more, after they had completely turned to think it was a stupid idea
See, I don't actually believe that the extremists put people off veganism (because nobody makes important life decisions based solely on the attitudes of random activists they encounter primarily on the Internet), but at the same time I don't think they do any good. It's more of an annoyance, I think, to those of us who are already vegan. I find myself rolling my eyes so hard it's almost painful whenever I hear someone wish death or misery upon meat eaters. It's dishonest at best, sociopathic at worst, and just plain misguided all around.
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#24 Old 09-07-2015, 07:05 AM
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See, I don't actually believe that the extremists put people off veganism (because nobody makes important life decisions based solely on the attitudes of random activists they encounter primarily on the Internet), but at the same time I don't think they do any good. It's more of an annoyance, I think, to those of us who are already vegan. I find myself rolling my eyes so hard it's almost painful whenever I hear someone wish death or misery upon meat eaters. It's dishonest at best, sociopathic at worst, and just plain misguided all around.
I agree about the people who are already taking it seriously, I meant more those who are considering trials, or just changing their opinion on the issue of animal rights in general. As in being on the fence. Those may have read an article, seen a documentary, are newly wanting to know more. Someone who is so demeaning, harsh, and extreme in how they present it can push them back over with a new found distain and disbelief.

The people I've met from a local AR group fits that description. Most unpleasant people I've met in a long time, and I've regretted not being more upfront about it.

I have know two people who were 'on the fence' about AR and veganism that were put off for years from press. I feel I helped them finally make the transition by not having it seem so crazy
Just because we all feel it's 100% obvious that animal suffer without need, most everyone else see it as an opinion without enough proof

Oh yeah, one of those people started the Dr Esselstyn heart disease diet without ANY regard for ethics--only as his last chance for life. He changed his life by following a plant based diet, and his attitude changed along with the results. He is now vegan
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Last edited by silva; 09-07-2015 at 07:16 AM.
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#25 Old 09-07-2015, 07:58 AM
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See, I don't actually believe that the extremists put people off veganism (because nobody makes important life decisions based solely on the attitudes of random activists they encounter primarily on the Internet), but at the same time I don't think they do any good. It's more of an annoyance, I think, to those of us who are already vegan. I find myself rolling my eyes so hard it's almost painful whenever I hear someone wish death or misery upon meat eaters. It's dishonest at best, sociopathic at worst, and just plain misguided all around.
It all depends on how it's framed. (see below)

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I didn't know where the animal products I was eating came from and was raised in that typical sort of family... Except, there may be something I was guilty of, about when I fished, aware of their sentience. Unless it is true that I could still be evil, that event makes me suffer from an inferiority complex, for it makes me want to make examples out of those illogical people not because I ignore that I once was a speciesist... But to try to scare people so much that it would undo my evil actions.
I knew where the flesh and bodily secretions I was consuming came from and I continued to eat them. I didn't stop eating meat until I was 24 and I didn't become fully vegan until I was 28. That was eight years ago today by coincidence. You are never going to undo your actions (more on whether they're evil written below). You did it. Start the cycle of self-loathing, redemption, and self-acceptance. You may never complete this cycle. I'm 36 now and I'm somewhere around the T in redemption.

There are so many factors at play that will cause someone who is relatively young to not make the courageous moral choice. Just to name three, there is immense social pressure to conform from other kids, the selfishness of actually enjoying the animal products combined with immaturity that limits one's ability to be empathetic and selfless, and the manipulation and brainwashing suffered when the "happy" meat industry promotes the idea that "use" but not "abuse" of animals is somehow better than full fledged exploitation and destruction, while hiding their operations behind closed doors, benefiting from ag-gag laws just as much if not more than factory farms benefit from them, and ultimately, destroying the animals much the same as if they'd been on factory farms. It's so easy to be manipulated by mainstream, status quo protecting propaganda campaigns. For every vegan, rights-based, abolitionist message a teenager hears today, she's probably hearing at least 100 messages promoting some sort of exploitation.

Additionally, a fourth reason is that humans tend to naturally accept whatever culture they're part of without challenging it, and this cannot be overlooked. We are complex creatures, and we are way too smart and clever for our own good. In other words, we're so smart that we're stupid, and the stupid is what manifests itself in our behavior. Over the course of centuries, we repeat the same mistakes, because we are much better at learning from our own mistakes (i.e., personal mistakes, as individuals, within a single lifetime) than we are at learning from the mistakes of others. This is a huge reason why I am so misanthropic.

It becomes even more difficult to learn from the mistakes of previous generations when history is wiped clean or rewritten by whoever controls the narrative, and typically, those controlling the narrative are capitalists who are amoral and willing to do whatever it takes to become profitable. Yet more reason to be misanthropic.

There's a relatively new group that I haven't looked at yet closely called carnism. I don't know if I agree with any of their ideas or not. I suppose I have to look into it more and only time will tell. From what I've gathered so far, they're trying to attack the entire culture of animal consumption to promote a vegan world, rather than trying to educate people one at a time. I can easily see how this might go sideways and turn into yet another welfarist propaganda machine that focuses on single issue campaigns and exploits one disadvantaged group for the benefit of another, but I'm not familiar enough with their planned strategy, so I have to reserve judgment. The one premise of theirs that I know is true is that the culture is definitely one that revolves around the exploitation and destruction of animals who belong to any species other than homo sapiens. Perhaps this is why so many meat eaters take offense to vegans, even when the vegans are completely silent and non-confrontational about everyone's food choices. Perhaps veganism is seen by meat eaters as an affront to the entire culture we live in, as well as that culture's entire history.

Therefore, if this premise is valid, it's not hard to jump to the next conclusion, which is that to merely stop participating in the consumption of animal products requires one to overcome so much resistance not only from external forces, including from one's immediate family, but from internal ones as well (cue the misanthropy). When I was in 4th grade, I was flabbergasted when the teacher explained that human beings are part of the animal kingdom with a genus and species just like all other mammals. I don't buy the idea that we're not born racist and that it's a learned behavior. I don't buy that we're not born speciesist. I also don't buy that we have to learn empathy and that we're not born with it. I think we're born with all these things, and the battles first occur within each individual before they occur out in the world. This is a huge source of internal conflict for anyone perceptive enough and introspective enough to recognize their own tendencies. Some of these tendencies are good and others are bad, but they're all part of human nature. The mere fact that I have judged some of these tendencies might be bad, in and of itself, because that judgment is in direct opposition to the teachings of buddha. Again, a lot of this is not about winning the battles in the outside world, but about winning the battle of self-acceptance. And is it really a battle at all? Maybe the yin and the yang are not necessarily about conflict and battles, but merely about opposing forces lacking subjectivity.

I've heard it said that becoming vegan now is a lot easier than it was 30-60 years ago, and that's probably true. But the reasons it's true have more to do with simply the increased availability of meat and egg substitutes in stores. It's also because the postmodern culture we live in has become ever-so-slightly more accepting of individual choices. However, this postmodern culture is a double-edged sword, because it promotes moral relativism rather than absolutes, which in my opinion hurts the animal cause.

As I said, we are complex creatures and we've created an intricate society and highly sophisticated (in a bad way) culture that is very hypocritical and inconsistent (more misanthropy here). All this leads me back to references to "evil" actions. When I was 17, Pulp Fiction came out, and I quickly memorized the entire passage from Ezekiel 25:17, which refers to "the tyranny of evil men" and lots of violent vengeance. Because of this, it took a long time for me to realize that evil doesn't actually exist. There are only two things: selfishness and empathy. Evil is just a word we use to describe our own desire for vengeance against those who, as a result of their selfishness and lack of empathy, cause pain and suffering and violate the inalienable rights of their victims. But it's important to remember that the desire for vengeance is itself selfish. This is what Jules meant when he said he was trying to be the shepherd. That's not to say, necessarily, that perpetrators don't deserve punishment. I'm merely pointing out that killing convicted murders with the electric chair or lethal injection is all about vengeance and not the slightest bit about so-called "justice." Capital punishment (not to mention government on the whole and every law that has ever been passed) is a complete farce, and yet another reason to cue the misanthropy. But I digress. The point here is that our entire culture is corrupt, it has no legitimate moral authority to enforce any laws whatsoever, and I don't see it getting any better. Not soon, not ever. The reason for this goes back to earlier in this post. We're so smart, we're stupid. We have problems caused by technology and we try to solve them with more technology. We have problems caused by previous failed attempts to correct bad policies and we fix them by inventing and instituting brand new, cutting edge bad policies.

And therefore, I find it completely valid to hold the entire human species, as well as all human cultures, which are perhaps more flawed than the humans themselves, in contempt. Since I believe we are unfixable, the only viable solution is our peaceful removal from existence through refusal to breed.

If I'm wrong, and the world shifts towards veganism faster than I anticipate, the reasons for the shift have to be considered. And perhaps I wouldn't be so wrong after all. Obviously the VHEMT ideal of zero human procreation starting immediately isn't going to happen. People are not going to stop having sex, and even if they all intended to not make babies, there would be accidents. So then we can start talking about sustainability and survival of the entire human species. If things don't change soon, we're headed on a path toward self-inflicted mass destruction of ourselves and the entire eco system, and it's going to be extremely unpleasant. The entire premise of the VHEMT philosophy is to slowly die out without any major catastrophic event, and the last person standing can shut off the lights, quite literally. If the culture changes and adapts quickly in its shift toward veganism, will the real reason be a result of a collective spiritual enlightenment that causes people to become empathetic towards animals? Or rather, would it be out of necessity and the selfish desire for elitist human survival? I can't see how it would be the former. The only question would be whether to negatively judge the resulting culture for the latter, or to simply embrace it and take our victories any which way we can get them?

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You have a lot to learn, Jek.

Your post was full of hate and images of violence. It reflects very poorly on vegans as a whole.

You will never change anyone's mind by bludgeoning them over the head. In general, the harder you push, the harder they will resist.

I suggest simply living your life in as virtuous a manner as possible. When you encounter people who, at that time in their own lives are open to change, you will have an impact upon them and inspire them to change.

Maybe they will change because they see the great health benefits being a vegan has brought you. Maybe it will be because they see what a kind and compassionate person you are. I absolutely guarantee it won't happen if you are annoying, preachy, or self-righteous.

Knowing that there are 16-year-olds as passionate about animal welfare as you are makes me feel good about the future.
This post (mostly just the first three sentences) turned me off more than seeing Pizza Hut and KFC commercials during football games in which cowhide is used to manufacture the balls and shoes worn by the players. Haven't you realized that you're not going to convince a 16 year old of anything by using condescension and contempt? (see what I did there?)

I understand your desire to distance all vegans from images of violence, but absent the violence, is it really wrong to find perpetrators of violence contemptible?

If you're going to make criticisms of teenagers who ultimately share your ideology, but who are rough around the edges due to inexperience and haven't yet developed tact, you have to bury and hide those criticisms by surrounding them with lots of praise, which in this case was ample in quantity, so it shouldn't have been difficult. Leading with criticism is never going to achieve your intended effect.
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#26 Old 09-07-2015, 09:14 AM
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I hate cowardly meat eaters

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we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.

Society doesn't work that way, Modern society still largely accepts animal abuse(specially farmed animals). If most people (maybe 95%) abhor meat, then laws will be passed to put people in jail for eating meat.

I don't know why vegans(in this thread) overwhelmingly oppose a law against meat consumption, coz I remember another thread where everyone was saying damn I wish a law was in place to ban meat. (I believe it was a thread about overpopulation

And please, if you eat meat without any care about the plight of the animals you aren't innocent, specially in the modern society where information is available.

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#27 Old 09-07-2015, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rasitha.wijesekera View Post
If most people (maybe 95%) abhor meat, then laws will be passed to put people in jail for eating meat.
No. If most people abhor meat, then farms won't exist and meat will no longer be available for purchase. There isn't any need to pass laws which imprison people for eating meat. I don't understand why you're focusing on consumers (who are, in fact, innocent people who happen to have been born into a society which normalises the commodification of animals) rather than on the industry which is actually producing and profiting off these animals. It's like advocating for the jailing of cigarette smokers rather than outlawing the production and sale of cigarettes: pointless and misguided.

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I don't know why vegans(in this thread) overwhelmingly oppose a law against meat consumption, coz I remember another thread where everyone was saying damn I wish a law was in place to ban meat. (I believe it was a thread about overpopulation)
You're misremembering that thread. Someone had suggested passing a law which would punish people for having more than one child as a weird, roundabout way of decreasing meat consumption rather than using that same power to simply outlaw meat consumption entirely. Either one is a gross misuse of power. That’s hardly the same as saying "damn, I wish a law was in place to ban meat" (which is, itself, an entirely different thing from "putting meat eaters in jail.")
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#28 Old 09-07-2015, 11:25 AM
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I hate cowardly meat eaters

Not really, people could still keep their own animals, run their own farms. Most people don't like human trafficking but it still happens coz a few wants it.

Anyways, Meat eaters aren't innocent because they were bred into this society which accepts animal abuse.
Show a random person a cruelty expose, show them facts about farming and environmental impact, what do you think most people would do? They ll make excuses as to why they are still right and we are wrong.

There's also a difference between drugs and meat. Drugs atleast mainly harms the user, whereas meat mainly harms the animals.
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Last edited by rasitha.wijesekera; 09-07-2015 at 11:28 AM.
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#29 Old 09-07-2015, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rasitha.wijesekera View Post
Not really, people could still keep their own animals, run their own farms. Most people don't like human trafficking but it still happens coz a few wants it.

Anyways, Meat eaters aren't innocent because they were bred into this society which accepts animal abuse.
Show a random person a cruelty expose, show them facts about farming and environmental impact, what do you think most people would do? They ll make excuses as to why they are still right and we are wrong.

There's also a difference between drugs and meat. Drugs atleast mainly harms the user, whereas meat mainly harms the animals.
If you were to outlaw the production of meat, then it follows that any farm would be illegal. Human trafficking is also illegal. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the cigarette analogy isn't that smoking cigarettes and eating meat are morally identical. The point is that if you wanted to do away with smoking, you would make the production of cigarettes illegal. You wouldn't throw smokers in jail.

Do you *really* believe that people who are currently eating meat have committed a jailable offense? You think that most people's grandmothers should be locked up? That the majority of the population of the world is guilty and deserving of imprisonment? Really?
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#30 Old 09-07-2015, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
No. If most people abhor meat, then farms won't exist and meat will no longer be available for purchase. There isn't any need to pass laws which imprison people for eating meat. I don't understand why you're focusing on consumers (who are, in fact, innocent people who happen to have been born into a society which normalises the commodification of animals) rather than on the industry which is actually producing and profiting off these animals. It's like advocating for the jailing of cigarette smokers rather than outlawing the production and sale of cigarettes: pointless and misguided.
This post started off great and then went completely off the rails. Whole Foods was started as a tiny store that sold only vegan products. When asked why they got in bed with HSUS and "happy" meat producers, CEO John Mackey explained, "This is what people want."

All that matters in a free market is supply and demand. It's true that the suppliers try to manipulate the end users into buying more more more, but if the consumers were both smart enough to resist the manipulation of advertising and compassionate enough to recognize that harming animals is wrong, they'd all stop buying. Whether you kill an animal personally and then eat the corpse or kill the animal by remote control (by paying someone else to do the killing for you, behind closed doors, so you don't have to get your hands dirty or even witness the barbarity of it) doesn't matter. It's your consumption of the animal that causes that animal to be bred for the sole purpose of being killed. Truck drivers, butchers, and store owners in the middle of the supply chain are acting immorally, but they're only middle men.

The two quotes that forced me into veganism when I really didn't want any part of it (I was happily ovo-lacto-veg and great at rationalizing that decision) were from Gandhi and Thoreau. First, the Gandhi quote said, "What you do may be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it." The quote from Thoreau, when combined with the Gandhi quote, made it all click for me: "Only individuals act. Therefore, only individuals act unjustly."

As the end user and final consumer of eggs and milk, I was the individual acting unjustly and causing harm to cows and chickens. As you stated, if everyone stopped consuming animal products, demand would dry up, and production would decrease until it finally reached zero. Trying to blame producers, transporters, suppliers, etc., is merely a red herring. That's not to say they're blameless. But they're merely accomplices. The actual criminals are the end consumers, who as rasitha.wijesekera accurately pointed out, usually tend to defend their actions even when confronted with the most damning evidence.

I'm guilty of it. First I rationalized eating meat by excusing it through moral relativism, although I didn't know the name of it at the time. After I stopped eating meat, I rationalized eating eggs and milk by believing that it was possible, at least in theory, to produce eggs and milk for human consumption harmlessly. And in turn, just because no human was smart enough to figure out how to harmlessly put these theories into practice on a massive scale, I had decided that wasn't my fault, and I was going to blame the producers for the harm suffered, rather than blaming myself. Gandhi and Thoreau combined to beat some sense into me and I haven't looked back since. I could no longer blame the advertisers, farmers, society, culture, etc.

Paul McCartney (a non-vegan) wrote this: "You tell me it's the institution, Well, you know, You'd better free your mind instead."

The problem wasn't the institution. It was me. The institution was only problematic to the extent that it attempted to manipulate and control me, but I was able to overcome it, and so can anybody else who wants it badly enough. Eight years ago today I turned vegan, and I still feel shame and bewilderment at my previous selfishness and thick-headedness. I'm not proud of the past eight years. I'm ashamed of the previous 28.

I understand why it's important to not take too hard a line when trying to educate people because it can be a turn-off, depending on where they're coming from. But if we let go of all our anger, we become complacent and too accepting of things the way they are.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
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