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#31 Old 09-07-2015, 12:17 PM
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If you were to outlaw the production of meat, then it follows that any farm would be illegal. Human trafficking is also illegal. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the cigarette analogy isn't that smoking cigarettes and eating meat are morally identical. The point is that if you wanted to do away with smoking, you would make the production of cigarettes illegal. You wouldn't throw smokers in jail.

Do you *really* believe that people who are currently eating meat have committed a jailable offense? You think that most people's grandmothers should be locked up? That the majority of the population of the world is guilty and deserving of imprisonment? Really?
We need a complete paradigm shift that changes the culture to prevent people from wanting cigarettes, meat, eggs, underage prostitutes, and circuses. This requires people to think and decide, on their own free will, to stop consuming these "products."

You can achieve 100% compliance by banning the circus in your town, but that will leave most attendees confused and bitter. It's the perfect example of why single-issue campaigns ultimately fail and end up doing more harm than good. The better way to handle it is to educate people about why the circus is bad, and get them to knowingly stop paying for tickets. Lack of demand will make the circus fold, and the circus will be eliminated everywhere, not just in the towns that have banned them. This is part of the NIMBY syndrome - not in my backyard. It's ok over there, just don't bring it here. Banning the circus does nothing to effectively cause the paradigm shift we're looking to achieve.

If meat, eggs, milk, fish, etc., all became socially unacceptable, there would still be an underground demand, and this demand would result in a black market supply. I think that's the point rasitha.wijesekera was making about human trafficking.
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#32 Old 09-07-2015, 12:29 PM
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This post started off great and then went completely off the rails. Whole Foods was started as a tiny store that sold only vegan products. When asked why they got in bed with HSUS and "happy" meat producers, CEO John Mackey explained, "This is what people want."

All that matters in a free market is supply and demand. It's true that the suppliers try to manipulate the end users into buying more more more, but if the consumers were both smart enough to resist the manipulation of advertising and compassionate enough to recognize that harming animals is wrong, they'd all stop buying. Whether you kill an animal personally and then eat the corpse or kill the animal by remote control (by paying someone else to do the killing for you, behind closed doors, so you don't have to get your hands dirty or even witness the barbarity of it) doesn't matter. It's your consumption of the animal that causes that animal to be bred for the sole purpose of being killed. Truck drivers, butchers, and store owners in the middle of the supply chain are acting immorally, but they're only middle men.

The two quotes that forced me into veganism when I really didn't want any part of it (I was happily ovo-lacto-veg and great at rationalizing that decision) were from Gandhi and Thoreau. First, the Gandhi quote said, "What you do may be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it." The quote from Thoreau, when combined with the Gandhi quote, made it all click for me: "Only individuals act. Therefore, only individuals act unjustly."

As the end user and final consumer of eggs and milk, I was the individual acting unjustly and causing harm to cows and chickens. As you stated, if everyone stopped consuming animal products, demand would dry up, and production would decrease until it finally reached zero. Trying to blame producers, transporters, suppliers, etc., is merely a red herring. That's not to say they're blameless. But they're merely accomplices. The actual criminals are the end consumers, who as rasitha.wijesekera accurately pointed out, usually tend to defend their actions even when confronted with the most damning evidence.

I'm guilty of it. First I rationalized eating meat by excusing it through moral relativism, although I didn't know the name of it at the time. After I stopped eating meat, I rationalized eating eggs and milk by believing that it was possible, at least in theory, to produce eggs and milk for human consumption harmlessly. And in turn, just because no human was smart enough to figure out how to harmlessly put these theories into practice on a massive scale, I had decided that wasn't my fault, and I was going to blame the producers for the harm suffered, rather than blaming myself. Gandhi and Thoreau combined to beat some sense into me and I haven't looked back since. I could no longer blame the advertisers, farmers, society, culture, etc.

Paul McCartney (a non-vegan) wrote this: "You tell me it's the institution, Well, you know, You'd better free your mind instead."

The problem wasn't the institution. It was me. The institution was only problematic to the extent that it attempted to manipulate and control me, but I was able to overcome it, and so can anybody else who wants it badly enough. Eight years ago today I turned vegan, and I still feel shame and bewilderment at my previous selfishness and thick-headedness. I'm not proud of the past eight years. I'm ashamed of the previous 28.

I understand why it's important to not take too hard a line when trying to educate people because it can be a turn-off, depending on where they're coming from. But if we let go of all our anger, we become complacent and too accepting of things the way they are.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
We're not talking about some abstract concept of blame, or the effect that an individual can have on the market (which I agree is substantial.) We're talking about punishment-- literally putting people in jail for purchasing a product which is entirely legal and socially acceptable. Are you really advocating for locking up kindergarten teachers and grandparents?
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#33 Old 09-07-2015, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
We're not talking about some abstract concept of blame, or the effect that an individual can have on the market (which I agree is substantial.) We're talking about punishment-- literally putting people in jail for purchasing a product which is entirely legal and socially acceptable. Are you really advocating for locking up kindergarten teachers and grandparents?
We're talking about a lot more than literally putting people in jail. I don't believe in imprisonment as punishment as a general concept, and I never said that anyone should be put in jail.

The comment made by one or two other people was not to be interpreted literally in my opinion, even if it was intended to be interpreted that way by the writer(s). I see those comments as nothing more than venting and an expression of frustration. If a northerner screamed from the top of a mountain in 1850 to jail all slave owners, would that be substantially different from a moral standpoint than someone posting on the internet today that human traffickers should be imprisoned? The social acceptance and legality of a behavior or practice has no bearing on its morality. Slave ownership was wrong then and it's wrong now. Just because imprisoning slave owners at the time wouldn't have been supported by the courts or by public opinion doesn't mean it shouldn't have been done, nor does it mean it shouldn't have been said at the time, whether or not the speaker understood the impracticality of actually doing it.

If you don't understand the concepts on an abstract level, it's impossible to first implement them into your own current life in practical, concrete ways. Additionally, it's impossible to envision the possible paths that our society might take in reaching our desired destination of a more compassionate, egalitarian, vegan world that somehow resembles the utopia written about by John Lennon (another flawed hypocrite, by the way - but the art stands for itself) in Imagine.
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#34 Old 09-07-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Necter View Post
we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.
This was the comment that I have been responding to in my posts. Being familiar with Necter's posts, I interpreted it literally. I am pretty sure that it was meant literally, as in: "we need to pass laws [effective immediately] that put [current] meat eaters in jail," which is a concept that I personally find ridiculous. I hope that it was, as you say, just venting. If so, then my own comments on the matter aren't really relevant anymore. I agree with you that we as individuals bear responsibility for our own consumption of animal products. That's why I'm vegan, after all. I do not, however, believe that everyone who hasn't already given up animal products is in any way deserving of punishment of any kind, certainly not imprisonment. I feel that it's a matter of education and persuasion rather than brute force and totalitarianism.
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#35 Old 09-07-2015, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
This was the comment that I have been responding to in my posts. Being familiar with Necter's posts, I interpreted it literally. I am pretty sure that it was meant literally, as in: "we need to pass laws [effective immediately] that put [current] meat eaters in jail," which is a concept that I personally find ridiculous. I hope that it was, as you say, just venting. If so, then my own comments on the matter aren't really relevant anymore. I agree with you that we as individuals bear responsibility for our own consumption of animal products. That's why I'm vegan, after all. I do not, however, believe that everyone who hasn't already given up animal products is in any way deserving of punishment of any kind, certainly not imprisonment. I feel that it's a matter of education and persuasion rather than brute force and totalitarianism.
I agree with everything you've said here, but your comments are still relevant. You posted:

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It's like advocating for the jailing of cigarette smokers rather than outlawing the production and sale of cigarettes: pointless and misguided.
This is clearly inconsistent with educating people and completely consistent with brute force. You want people to stop smoking? Don't tell them why, just ban cigarettes. You want people to stop going to the circus? Don't tell them why, just ban the circus. You want people to stop exploiting unwilling, underage prostitutes? Anyone who doesn't understand why that's wrong probably can't be reasoned with anyway.
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#36 Old 09-07-2015, 02:11 PM
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I agree with everything you've said here, but your comments are still relevant. You posted:


This is clearly inconsistent with educating people and completely consistent with brute force. You want people to stop smoking? Don't tell them why, just ban cigarettes. You want people to stop going to the circus? Don't tell them why, just ban the circus. You want people to stop exploiting unwilling, underage prostitutes? Anyone who doesn't understand why that's wrong probably can't be reasoned with anyway.
I think i see what you're saying: that it's not particularly effective to jail smokers or meat-eaters OR to suddenly outlaw the production of cigarettes or meat without sort of easing into it first? I could get behind that, and in fact I think that's how it's likely to happen. I think we're already heading in that direction. As plant-based alternatives to animal products become progressively cheaper and more readily available, and as the environmental impact of animal agriculture becomes more apparent to the general public, more and more people will voluntarily choose to give up animal products until the production of these products is no longer profitable, at which point the whole system will collapse. That is my fervent hope, at least. It certainly seems preferable to me than suddenly outlawing anything.
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#37 Old 09-07-2015, 06:05 PM
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I hate cowardly meat eaters

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
If you were to outlaw the production of meat, then it follows that any farm would be illegal. Human trafficking is also illegal. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the cigarette analogy isn't that smoking cigarettes and eating meat are morally identical. The point is that if you wanted to do away with smoking, you would make the production of cigarettes illegal. You wouldn't throw smokers in jail.

Do you *really* believe that people who are currently eating meat have committed a jailable offense? You think that most people's grandmothers should be locked up? That the majority of the population of the world is guilty and deserving of imprisonment? Really?

No I don't, It wouldn't be practical. There'd be riots and stuff. Additionally, you can't punish people for commuting offenses that were done before the law was passed.

If it would work whatever way I want to, I'd first pass laws. Ban meat production entirely. production would be the highest punishable offense. Eating meat would be a less punishable offense but still punishable.

It's like punishing people for purchasing child porn. The consumers don't directly abuse children. But it's only because of them the industry exists and children are abused.
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#38 Old 09-07-2015, 06:37 PM
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agree to disagree but if this is a vegan forum ...

cannot believe the complacency and tolerance for murder here
There is not "tolerance and complacency" towards murder here, there is an understanding of the wider problem affecting the majority of the populations perception of animal exploitation.

Most meat eaters aren't bad people and they don't deserve jail. You should learn more about cults, and then apply the difficulty of "deprogramming" cult members to a global scale. Meat eaters are *so* conditioned and brainwashed into believing meat is essential to human health, killing animals for food is a "necessary evil" and that humans are "better" than animals that they cannot see the error of their ways.

Most vegans have realized aggressive "scare tactics" do not work on the majority of the population, and are now looking for a different approach that is more effective.
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#39 Old 09-08-2015, 12:30 AM
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There is not "tolerance and complacency" towards murder here, there is an understanding of the wider problem affecting the majority of the populations perception of animal exploitation.



Most meat eaters aren't bad people and they don't deserve jail. You should learn more about cults, and then apply the difficulty of "deprogramming" cult members to a global scale. Meat eaters are *so* conditioned and brainwashed into believing meat is essential to human health, killing animals for food is a "necessary evil" and that humans are "better" than animals that they cannot see the error of their ways.



Most vegans have realized aggressive "scare tactics" do not work on the majority of the population, and are now looking for a different approach that is more effective.

There's more levels you have to think about. Even if it's a cult and they are brainwashed, people who see the correct way would still punish the cultists if they consider their acts heinous enough.

It's true that scare tactics don't work, coz there is no practical way to scare people into not eating meat. there's too little people on the side of animals.
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#40 Old 09-08-2015, 08:42 AM
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we need to pass laws that put meat eaters in jail.
You have no one in your life that you love that isn't vegan? Would you want your family members in jail or you spouse in jail for eating meat? There are good people in the world who eat meat. Putting people in jail isn't the answer to get people to become vegan.



And Welcome Jek! I know its hard but just ignore them. We all have deal with people making fun of us and saying mean comments to us once in a while.
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#41 Old 09-09-2015, 07:57 AM
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I think i see what you're saying: that it's not particularly effective to jail smokers or meat-eaters OR to suddenly outlaw the production of cigarettes or meat without sort of easing into it first? I could get behind that, and in fact I think that's how it's likely to happen. I think we're already heading in that direction. As plant-based alternatives to animal products become progressively cheaper and more readily available, and as the environmental impact of animal agriculture becomes more apparent to the general public, more and more people will voluntarily choose to give up animal products until the production of these products is no longer profitable, at which point the whole system will collapse. That is my fervent hope, at least. It certainly seems preferable to me than suddenly outlawing anything.
It's not about "easing into it." It's about eliminating demand through education, which will result in the supply drying up. It's not about compliance, which can be legislated. It's about a paradigm shift that moves collective society away from speciesism and allows the masses to make educated moral choices without legal obligation. Morality cannot be legislated.

Ban the circus, and you help a few elephants and lions, which is great, but the people who are left disappointed that their chosen form of entertainment has vanished are unlikely to understand that circuses enslave animals and that enslavement is only allowed because of speciesism. In turn, they are unlikely to even begin to contemplate what speciesism is, and banning the circus does nothing to eliminate the consumption of animal products for food or clothing.

Attack the cancerous tree at the root, not by cutting off branches as they grow.
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#42 Old 09-10-2015, 04:02 PM
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You have no one in your life that you love that isn't vegan? Would you want your family members in jail or you spouse in jail for eating meat? There are good people in the world who eat meat. Putting people in jail isn't the answer to get people to become vegan.



And Welcome Jek! I know its hard but just ignore them. We all have deal with people making fun of us and saying mean comments to us once in a while.


Thank you for the words of encouragement, Jasmine. People have been telling me never to act on these impulses of mine which is advice I follow considering my ignorance of whether or not you are allowed to be vegan in prison and because I don't want to represent veganism in a violent light. What I originally meant to say was how enraging and idiotic *some* meat eaters can be.
In regards to whoever told me I can't undo anything, your idea of redemption is what I meant to say. I did indeed have peer pressure from my grandfather at the time that I went fishing (which was a time when I was not considering vegetarianism in general) if anybody wanted to know whether I did... I think I remember someone asking that. And considering how that fishing took lives, I still hate myself for it.
Since my Original post was in the new member introduction section, I will say why I call myself by a sci-fi character I made up, Jek. He is a character in a story I am trying to write who was in charge of the operation of abducting a human and then experimenting with him psychologically in order to determine whether humans should be one of their food sources if they ever drive other species into extinction. This occurs because the aliens that Jek dictates over are carnivorous. He is their autocratic ruler, being one of the aliens himself. As you may be able to tell, I am trying to implicitly influence people towards veganism if I ever get this book published... I am paranoid about someone stealing my story ideas including the specifics about Jek's personality (which is in the form of tragic villainy if I'm writing this right), but he is a well-intentioned terrorist (he uses purges to try to protect his empire later in the series). He is an immortal as you may have guessed. I refer to myself as Jek because whenever I get really violent thoughts, it helps me to imagine if I had his power ... And to me only (until now) it is an inside joke about how people portray AR vegans as extremists whenever they are actually relatively peaceful.
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#43 Old 09-10-2015, 04:11 PM
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I was thinking to post to @Jek about your very cool avatar, and then I read your post, and you explained it. 😊
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#44 Old 09-10-2015, 05:20 PM
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Thank you.
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#45 Old 09-11-2015, 02:00 PM
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I think that I have actually been vegan since summer 2012, yet I only started to use PETA's animal ingredients list at least ONE year ago. Does anyone know how to veganize shrimp fried rice? I miss it a lot.
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#46 Old 09-11-2015, 05:25 PM
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I think that I have actually been vegan since summer 2012, yet I only started to use PETA's animal ingredients list at least ONE year ago. Does anyone know how to veganize shrimp fried rice? I miss it a lot.
I don't know how it's done, but V-Life in NY on 7th Avenue one block south of Madison Square Garden has a great fried "shrimp" side dish made with candied walnuts served over a bed of lettuce and it's amazing. I don't know how they make the shrimp so realistic, but mixing it with rice shouldn't be hard. Also, they have the best vegan bbq quesadilla I've ever had. Probably my favorite vegan dish in any restaurant anywhere, including good ones I've had at Blossom, Peacefood, and Candle groups.
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#47 Old 09-11-2015, 07:08 PM
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I don't know if I will ever be able to venture to NY (I live in Texas), so do you know if vegetarian plus vegan shrimp tastes realistic? I was disappointed at how it tasted more like hard chicken than shrimp to me when I tried another brand of vegan shrimp.
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#48 Old 09-12-2015, 05:48 AM
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Never had it, sorry. No idea.
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#49 Old 09-12-2015, 02:26 PM
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It is okay.
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