What's Wrong With Soy? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 08-25-2016, 10:44 AM
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Thanks everyone for lots and lots of information XD I'll stick to having soy still. The soy milk I use is called So Good and I checked it has no GMOS and whatnot they say it's very healthy and I got my super healthy eater of a brother to check it for me he says it's good
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#32 Old 08-25-2016, 11:45 AM
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We're not just disputing Mercola, we've been telling you those finding are flawed, and reputable sources have updated the results.
I don't have time to post links, but you can look at the breast cancer site for one

So where did you get your reseearch?
They're not flawed. I forgot exactly which sites where I've read about it, but here's one I just found. http://m.naturalnews.com/news/022630...ytic_acid.html

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#33 Old 08-25-2016, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Mike View Post
They're not flawed. I forgot exactly which sites where I've read about it, but here's one I just found. http://m.naturalnews.com/news/022630...ytic_acid.html

Hi Mike,

Unfortunately, the internet does a great disservice by diluting good information with so much misinformation.

More reliable information is best obtained from reputable health organizations (the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, the American Diabetes Association, etc.), and from peer-reviewed studies found in scientific journals such as the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, the Diabetes Journal, the Journal of the American Medical Association, etc.

The "Natural News" website is not a reputable health organization - rather, it's more of a lifestyle website. Also, unfortunately, the cited article does not reference any peer-reviewed studies.

The person cited in your "Natural News" article, Dr. Mary Enig (now deceased), was a spokesperson for the Weston A. Price Foundation, an organization that actively criticizes and discourages vegetarian and vegan diets (see links below). The "Natural News" article specifically encourages people to seek nutrition information from the Weston A. Price Foundation.

http://www.westonaprice.org/about-th...getarian-tour/

http://www.westonaprice.org/action-a...ce-foundation/


On the home site of the Weston A. Price Foundation, you can read their decidedly anti-vegan welcome message:

"They are happy because they eat butter! They also eat plenty of raw milk, cream, cheese, eggs, liver, meat, cod liver oil, seafood, and other nutrient-dense foods that have nourished generations of healthy people worldwide!"

Link: http://www.westonaprice.org/


The Weston A. Price Foundation may have good intentions, but their anti-vegan claims are not supported by reputable health organizations. The American Heart Association, the American Diabetes Association, Kaiser Permanente (one of the largest health insurance companies in the United States), and even the United States Department of Agriculture have all stated that properly-planned vegan diets are healthy:

http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fit...r-vegetarians/

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Health...p#.V79CASxTF9A

https://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians

https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/w...et-booklet.pdf


With regards to the question of soy and breast cancer risk, please see this statement and webpage from the (reputable) American Cancer Society: http://blogs.cancer.org/expertvoices...t-cancer-risk/
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 08-25-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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#34 Old 08-25-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Mike View Post
They're not flawed. I forgot exactly which sites where I've read about it, but here's one I just found. http://m.naturalnews.com/news/022630...ytic_acid.html
Now you list a conspiracy site

You can believe whatever you want, but please stop posting such trashy links. We've been giving non biased, scientific research.
Yes, there were studies done that showed a link suggesting soy estrogens could disrupt womens hormores, but they have been thrown out as not using correct procedures, and using disproportionate amounts. While conspiricy sites, and meat and dairy supporters inflamed the flawed research, all reputable medical sites have published retractions

As I said before- I have NEVER seen an article that trashed soy that wasn't supportive of meat (or weird conspiricy sites)
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#35 Old 08-25-2016, 04:22 PM
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I also get the impression that people use anti-soy arguments to try and discredit vegetarianism.
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#36 Old 08-25-2016, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by David3 View Post
Hi Mike,

Unfortunately, the internet does a great disservice by diluting good information with so much misinformation.

More reliable information is best obtained from reputable health organizations (the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, the American Diabetes Association, etc.), and from peer-reviewed studies found in scientific journals such as the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, the Diabetes Journal, the Journal of the American Medical Association, etc.

The "Natural News" website is not a reputable health organization - rather, it's more of a lifestyle website. Also, unfortunately, the cited article does not reference any peer-reviewed studies.

The person cited in your "Natural News" article, Dr. Mary Enig (now deceased), was a spokesperson for the Weston A. Price Foundation, an organization that actively criticizes and discourages vegetarian and vegan diets (see links below). The "Natural News" article specifically encourages people to seek nutrition information from the Weston A. Price Foundation.

http://www.westonaprice.org/about-th...getarian-tour/

http://www.westonaprice.org/action-a...ce-foundation/


On the home site of the Weston A. Price Foundation, you can read their decidedly anti-vegan welcome message:

"They are happy because they eat butter! They also eat plenty of raw milk, cream, cheese, eggs, liver, meat, cod liver oil, seafood, and other nutrient-dense foods that have nourished generations of healthy people worldwide!"

Link: http://www.westonaprice.org/


The Weston A. Price Foundation may have good intentions, but their anti-vegan claims are not supported by reputable health organizations. The American Heart Association, the American Diabetes Association, Kaiser Permanente (one of the largest health insurance companies in the United States), and even the United States Department of Agriculture have all stated that properly-planned vegan diets are healthy:

http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fit...r-vegetarians/

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Health...p#.V79CASxTF9A

https://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians

https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/w...et-booklet.pdf


With regards to the question of soy and breast cancer risk, please see this statement and webpage from the (reputable) American Cancer Society: http://blogs.cancer.org/expertvoices...t-cancer-risk/
It's not misinformation.
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Originally Posted by silva View Post
Now you list a conspiracy site

You can believe whatever you want, but please stop posting such trashy links. We've been giving non biased, scientific research.
Yes, there were studies done that showed a link suggesting soy estrogens could disrupt womens hormores, but they have been thrown out as not using correct procedures, and using disproportionate amounts. While conspiricy sites, and meat and dairy supporters inflamed the flawed research, all reputable medical sites have published retractions

As I said before- I have NEVER seen an article that trashed soy that wasn't supportive of meat (or weird conspiricy sites)
It's not a conspiracy. You could believe whatever you want as well, but if you want to know the truth about soy I posted it.

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#37 Old 08-25-2016, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Mike View Post
It's not misinformation.


It's not a conspiracy. You could believe whatever you want as well, but if you want to know the truth about soy I posted it.

Mike,

I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect us to believe the claims made by such rabidly anti-vegan sources as Dr. Joe Mercola and the Weston A. Price Foundation.

The reputable American Cancer Society states that soy foods (including non-fermented soy foods) are safe and beneficial. Your contrary belief seems to be based on the claims of people who irrationally oppose vegan diets. Can you help us to understand why you place so much faith in such people?
.
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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 08-25-2016 at 06:30 PM.
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#38 Old 08-25-2016, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn_Moore View Post
Thanks everyone for lots and lots of information XD I'll stick to having soy still. The soy milk I use is called So Good and I checked it has no GMOS and whatnot they say it's very healthy and I got my super healthy eater of a brother to check it for me he says it's good
I hope you enjoy your soy milk!

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#39 Old 08-26-2016, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan Mike View Post
It's not misinformation.


It's not a conspiracy. You could believe whatever you want as well, but if you want to know the truth about soy I posted it.
If you believe well known, unbiased research sites provided are wrong, then please provide sites that are not linked to meat/dairy promoters, nor conspiracies
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#40 Old 08-26-2016, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by David3 View Post
Mike,

I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect us to believe the claims made by such rabidly anti-vegan sources as Dr. Joe Mercola and the Weston A. Price Foundation.

The reputable American Cancer Society states that soy foods (including non-fermented soy foods) are safe and beneficial. Your contrary belief seems to be based on the claims of people who irrationally oppose vegan diets. Can you help us to understand why you place so much faith in such people?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
If you believe well known, unbiased research sites provided are wrong, then please provide sites that are not linked to meat/dairy promoters, nor conspiracies
Again, it's not about what Dr. Mercola or the other site said, it's just the fact of the matter. By the way the ACS is totally invalid as a source. You can't exactly believe a group of people claiming chemo'therapy' and radiation are 'treatments' for cancer. Research the Gerson method and the Hoxley clinic instead of listening to greedy money hungry thieves who know of cures for illnesses and try to cover them up.

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#41 Old 08-26-2016, 03:25 PM
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Again, if the anti-soy claims are valid why can't the people taking that stance provide some valid link to the research? Some site that doesn't have a money trail to the meat industry, or isn't just completely wack?
Whatever you feel about the ACS it's research is validated
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#42 Old 08-26-2016, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Mike View Post
Again, it's not about what Dr. Mercola or the other site said, it's just the fact of the matter. By the way the ACS is totally invalid as a source. You can't exactly believe a group of people claiming chemo'therapy' and radiation are 'treatments' for cancer. Research the Gerson method and the Hoxley clinic instead of listening to greedy money hungry thieves who know of cures for illnesses and try to cover them up.



"It's just the fact of the matter" is obviously not a rational argument.

Furthermore, your cited "Gerson Therapy" (employing proteolytic enzymes, a 70% raw organic diet, coffee enemas twice daily, liver flushes, and purging) has been shown to be far less effective than conventional therapy in extending the lives of people with pancreatic cancer. Please see this study from the Journal of Clinical Oncology: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...df/zlj2058.pdf

Although it is legal to teach Gerson Therapy in the United States, actual Gerson Therapy clinics are banned in the United States. The only Gerson clinics operate in Mexico and Hungary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson#Gerson_Therapy

Your "Hoxsey" treatment has also been banned in the United States. Their nearest treatment facility is in Mexico: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoxsey_Therapy

Nope, I am not interested in any conspiracy theories about health treatment cover-ups, etc. Go tell it to the Flat Earth Society.

Mike, at this point I am reporting your posts to the moderators. You are promoting a treatment that has been shown to reduce the survival of cancer patients. This forum cannot tolerate false claims - not when people come here for evidence-based information.
.
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 08-27-2016 at 11:47 AM.
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#43 Old 08-26-2016, 06:45 PM
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Ok, I don't know I m in Europe. But I hear that in the USA products don't need to be labeled as GMO. And I hear that there is no natural soy production since Monsanto take over the land?

Maybe someone from the USA can give us more information. I mean, to the people from the USA and to us who are concern about GMO soy. I know in my country once we had illegal GMO seed planted and soy was not destroyed because the law is written weird. Like, you are not allowed to seed GMO, but if it is already planted it should not be destroyed. As well I m not sure about my laws either. This whole GMO law thing is confusing.
Mr. Monsanto wants everyone to think that all soy is GMO, in order to prove that GMO foods are fine. That is so not true! Whole Foods Market will never have on its shelves GMO foods. And, I get food that is specifically labeled NON-GMO. They can not put that label on any food that has GMO in it.

And, any law that bans destroying seed that is already planted is ignoring reality. I can guarantee you that there have been many a child who has uprooted the plant, instead of the weed (and adults too! Yes, guilty.)

Perhaps there is the misconception that might exist that thinks destroyed gmo seed will grow like a weed? It won't. Mr. Monsanto only makes billions if you have to rebuy the seed. Also, some farmers have found that gmo seeds destroys the land. Thus, if I accidentally had gmo seed, I would remove it quickly. Mr. Monsanto will sue you if you have gmo seed in your land without his permission - which comes with a written contract. Thus, you still need to remove it quickly or be sued and pay Mr. Monsanto thousands of dollars.


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#44 Old 08-26-2016, 06:57 PM
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I see, so you need to look for a label that says non-GMO? I wonder if we in Europe need to look for same label. Soy here is pretty cheap, but i have find soy without label non-GMO.
Normally, any store that is a Natural foods store, or any product that is trully organic will normally not be GMO. in the USA, it is illegal to label a gmo food as being organic. Anything from Ireland or New Zealand will always be non-gmo.

I found a link that might help. They have a list of 7 apps that help people avoid GMO foods.
7 apps for finding non-gmo foods.

As long as you are strict Vegan, it will be easy to avoid GMO foods. It is the vegetarians that can not avoid indirect GMO - the cheese being made from milk from a cow fed GMO grains, for example. This is because of the loophole in the laws in Europe.


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#45 Old 08-26-2016, 07:06 PM
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"It's just the fact of the matter" is obviously not a rational argument.

Furthermore, your cited "Gerson Therapy" (employing proteolytic enzymes, a 70% raw organic diet, coffee enemas twice daily, liver flushes, and purging) has been shown to be far less effective than conventional therapy in extending the lives of people with pancreatic cancer. Please see this study from the Journal of Clinical Oncology: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...df/zlj2058.pdf

Although it is legal to teach Gerson Therapy in the United States, actual Gerson Therapy clinics are banned in the United States. The only Gerson clinics operate in Mexico and Hungary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson#Gerson_Therapy

Your "Hoxley" treatment has also been banned in the United States. Their nearest treatment facility is in Mexico: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoxsey_Therapy

Nope, I am not interested in any conspiracy theories about health treatment cover-ups, etc. Go tell it to the Flat Earth Society.

Mike, at this point I am reporting your posts to the moderators. You are promoting a treatment that has been shown to reduce the survival of cancer patients. This forum cannot tolerate false claims - not when people come here for evidence-based information.
.
It's not an arguement and it's not a conspiracy, it's the truth. I'm actually not promoting lesser quality treatments, you are, you just don't realize it because you believe in 'treatments' designed to put money in peoples pockets, not help anyone. Why do you think there's no Hoxsey clinics in the United States? They don't care about the health of the people, they just want to make money. It's the same as the pharaceutical industry, they don't cure diseases, they just mask the symptoms without addressing the root cause. That's what these businesses are designed to do, 'manage' symptoms, not cure illness, because if they actually cured people they wouldn't make as much money. So if you don't want to talk about false claims you probably shouldn't dismiss the truth.

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#46 Old 08-26-2016, 08:15 PM
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It's not an arguement and it's not a conspiracy, it's the truth. I'm actually not promoting lesser quality treatments, you are, you just don't realize it because you believe in 'treatments' designed to put money in peoples pockets, not help anyone. Why do you think there's no Hoxsey clinics in the United States? They don't care about the health of the people, they just want to make money. It's the same as the pharaceutical industry, they don't cure diseases, they just mask the symptoms without addressing the root cause. That's what these businesses are designed to do, 'manage' symptoms, not cure illness, because if they actually cured people they wouldn't make as much money. So if you don't want to talk about false claims you probably shouldn't dismiss the truth.

You are promoting a treatment that has not been proven through randomized control trials.

There is no mighty conspiracy to prevent non-drug medical clinics from operating in the United States. There are several dietary-therapy medical clinics that are fully permitted to operate in the United States. Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Dean Ornish both use a low-fat vegetarian diet to treat and reverse heart disease and type 2 diabetes. They are allowed to do this, because a low-fat vegetarian diet has been proven to treat and reverse heart disease and type 2 diabetes.


Even the "evil" capitalist health insurance giant, Kaiser Permanente, has published its own vegan nutrition manual: https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/w...et-booklet.pdf . Page 2 of the manual says, "Do you want to improve, stabilize, or even reverse a chronic condition such as heart disease, high cholesterol, diabetes or high blood pressure? . . . then a plant-based eating plan may be for you". Kaiser Permanente is allowed to promote a vegan diet to reverse heart disease and diabetes, because it has been proven to work.


The Gerson Clinic, on the other hand, is not allowed to operate its clinics in the United States, because Gerson's own particular treatments have not been shown to satisfy its claims.


Last post from me. You haven't provided any studies from peer-reviewed journals. All of your "proof" has come from rabidly anti-vegan organizations.


.

_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#47 Old 08-27-2016, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by silva View Post
Again, if the anti-soy claims are valid why can't the people taking that stance provide some valid link to the research? Some site that doesn't have a money trail to the meat industry, or isn't just completely wack?
Whatever you feel about the ACS it's research is validated
Yeah, 'validated' by sick people who only desire to line their pockets with more money instead of offering legitimite treatments that actually rid people of disease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David3 View Post
You are promoting a treatment that has not been proven through randomized control trials.

There is no mighty conspiracy to prevent non-drug medical clinics from operating in the United States. There are several dietary-therapy medical clinics that are fully permitted to operate in the United States. Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Dean Ornish both use a low-fat vegetarian diet to treat and reverse heart disease and type 2 diabetes. They are allowed to do this, because a low-fat vegetarian diet has been proven to treat and reverse heart disease and type 2 diabetes.


Even the "evil" capitalist health insurance giant, Kaiser Permanente, has published its own vegan nutrition manual: https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/w...et-booklet.pdf . Page 2 of the manual says, "Do you want to improve, stabilize, or even reverse a chronic condition such as heart disease, high cholesterol, diabetes or high blood pressure? . . . then a plant-based eating plan may be for you". Kaiser Permanente is allowed to promote a vegan diet to reverse heart disease and diabetes, because it has been proven to work.


The Gerson Clinic, on the other hand, is not allowed to operate its clinics in the United States, because Gerson's own particular treatments have not been shown to satisfy its claims.


Last post from me. You haven't provided any studies from peer-reviewed journals. All of your "proof" has come from rabidly anti-vegan organizations.


.
Regardless of where it's posted doesn't make it any less true. The only place a cure has to be proven is with the patients, not a crooked medical industry who has no interest in cures in the first place.

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Last edited by Vegan Mike; 08-27-2016 at 02:00 PM.
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#48 Old 08-27-2016, 04:55 PM
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Hmmm. I've been thinking of ways to make a little income.
Tin foil hats on etsy maybe?
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#49 Old 08-29-2016, 02:16 PM
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Hmmm. I've been thinking of ways to make a little income.
Tin foil hats on etsy maybe?
Hmm, I think I've got a better idea. How about you educate yourself before making foolish remarks?

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#50 Old 08-29-2016, 03:46 PM
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Following varying opinions given in this thread, the opening poster seems to have decided that it's ok for her to continue eating soya products. That would be my view also, after munching soya for nearly 30 years.

Maybe it's a good time to close the thread as it appears nothing novel/useful is being presented now?

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#51 Old 08-29-2016, 04:01 PM
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Hmm, I think I've got a better idea. How about you educate yourself before making foolish remarks?
I have educated myself to know that there is no present research showing soy is harmful that is not associated with the meat/dairy industry, or of the conspiracy theorist sites that have as news -
Quote:
Father with terminal brain cancer destroyed tumor by cutting carb intake
such as the naturalnews site you list.

If your views of soy being unhealthy are valid, then produce valid evidence. If you're fine with conspiracy, or biased opinions, at least be aware of your sources

Closing this thread per members advice
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