Discussion : Are all Vegetarians bound to turn Vegan ? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-12-2016, 08:23 AM
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Discussion : Are all Vegetarians bound to turn Vegan ?

What do you think ?

I personally think that someone who turned vegetarian for health, enviromental or ethical reasons has to feel concerned, and is bound to think about veganism and try to reduce his consumption of animal products.
But do you think every vegetarian is going to take it a step further ?
Do you have experiences and stories to share ?
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#2 Old 08-12-2016, 08:39 AM
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I have two friends who have been veggie or over 40 years but are not interested in taking things any further.
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#3 Old 08-12-2016, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SparksofAdventure View Post
What do you think ?

I personally think that someone who turned vegetarian for health, enviromental or ethical reasons has to feel concerned, and is bound to think about veganism and try to reduce his consumption of animal products.
But do you think every vegetarian is going to take it a step further ?
Do you have experiences and stories to share ?



I don't know, but I do know that VeggieBoards is for both vegetarians and vegans.


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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#4 Old 08-12-2016, 03:19 PM
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I think it is a logical progression but clearly not all vegetarians will then go vegan.

IF you are vegetarian for reasons on animal ethics, for example you feel it is wrong to kill and eat another living creature and inflict suffering, then you are perhaps just a short bit of education or thinking away from veganism.

However if you are vegetarian not for a deep moral reason but for the environment, or health, or because you have an aversion to the sight of dead animal carcasses, then you don't necessarily have a strong reason to go vegan.

I suspect there is another case. Vegetarian for moral reason but not really that committed to it, just trying to be nice to the animals, and so on, but not really upset about animal abuses that go on daily. In this scenario vegetarianism is also a balance between ethics on the one hand and other factors like taste, convenience, and lack of nutrition knowledge.

Another possibility: perhaps vegetarians have concerns about animal welfare or sustainability, while vegans have more fundamental concerns about animal rights.

Or concerned more about animals being killed than animals suffering.
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#5 Old 08-12-2016, 04:03 PM
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I think that some people will not go vegan, and that is just fine. If everyone just stopped eating meat, the cow dairy and chicken egg industries would not be sustainable, anyway.

A story I have is when my son announced he was going vegetarian. 2004ish, winter, we were all omnis.

A couple of my friends had ridden with me to pick up my kids from elementary school, and one friend was pescetarian. She mentioned something about it, and my younger child said, "You can do that, not eat meat?" She explained about pescetarian and vegetarian, and did not go into veganism because of the side eye she got from me. 😂

I went to the (main) library and read everything. Cookbooks, nutrition stuff, books by and about vegetarianism. I just decided to cook vegan since my husband is all about healthy eating, plus knowing my son, even at 8 years old, I knew he was going to be vegan. He's a Go Big or Go Home kind of guy still today, at 23. So yes, within a couple years my husband, son, and I went vegan. Our older daughter is omni but always ate vegan food at home when she lived here, and still does when she's with us.
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#6 Old 08-12-2016, 05:37 PM
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Interesting story..so one small little girl basically converted three people with one comment? Would that be fair to say? Without that one little girl, might you be omni today? Or just come to veganism a bit later?
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#7 Old 08-12-2016, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
I think that some people will not go vegan, and that is just fine. If everyone just stopped eating meat, the cow dairy and chicken egg industries would not be sustainable, anyway.

.
Hm, that doesn't seem right to me. Aren't the chicken egg and chicken meat industries largely separate? Layer chickens are bred specifically for eggs and then perhaps killed for lower quality meat like soups and burgers? Broilers bred for meat being completely separate. If everyone went vegetarian that would be the end of the broiler industry, but surely the separate layer industry would continue.

Unless there were to be some public outcry over layer chickens being killed when they were economically inefficient, which already happens, but at least there is a by product at the end in the present situation, which some might find less offensive (?).

Similar argument for cows. If there is a market for cheese, surely diary cows can continue. Might be more expensive since no meat end product.
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#8 Old 08-12-2016, 06:15 PM
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Hm, that doesn't seem right to me. Aren't the chicken egg and chicken meat industries largely separate? Layer chickens are bred specifically for eggs and then perhaps killed for lower quality meat like soups and burgers? Broilers bred for meat being completely separate. If everyone went vegetarian that would be the end of the broiler industry, but surely the separate layer industry would continue.

Unless there were to be some public outcry over layer chickens being killed when they were economically inefficient, which already happens, but at least there is a by product at the end in the present situation, which some might find less offensive (?).

Similar argument for cows. If there is a market for cheese, surely diary cows can continue. Might be more expensive since no meat end product.
Egg laying chickens are used up by overlaying very quickly and are used for meat. Plus the dead male baby chicks used for chicken nuggets, soup, etc. Having eggs as the only profit would make buying eggs a huge luxury.

Same with cow milk/cheese, leather, etc. They use up the dairy cows quickly and slaughter them for the cheap meat, and slaughter specialty leather cows for meat as well. Plus again the baby males killed at a few months of age for "veal." All huge profits for the dairy industry!
---------
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/...slaughterhouse
"Slaughtered dairy cows account for about 6 percent of all beef production in the U.S. and about 18 percent of ground beef, according to the National Cattlemen's Beef Association."

----------
http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/farmin...in-hard-season

"Cash-strapped dairy farmers are slaughtering thousands more cattle than usual in response to slumping milk prices.

The national cow kill is up by more than 160,000 head on a year ago. Meat Board statistics for the processing year to July 25 showed the number of cows being processed in export-licenced plants was up 19 per cent on last year.

In the North Island the week of July 25 the kill was 55 per cent higher than a year ago. In the South Island, the increase was 81 per cent.

Economic Service director Rob Davison said farmers usually started culling dairy cattle in April and May as the milking season ended. This year it had started in February, as farmers facing drought and falling payout shed their worst-performing animals.

Dairy farmers are weighing the cost of feeding and breeding a cow for a poor payout against the gain of selling an animal to the meat works. The sale value of some of these cows has fallen in line with the payout drop, at a time when beef is paying at meat processing plants."

---------------

http://freefromharm.org/dairyfacts/

1. 21,000,000 dairy calves are slaughtered for veal or cheap beef every year globally. (1)

. Male calves and surplus females are sold to be slaughtered for veal or cheap beef. The veal industry would not exist without the dairy industry.

Trapped in a cycle of forced impregnation, perpetual lactation and near constant confinement, dairy cows’ overworked bodies begin producing less milk at 4 to 5 years of age, at which point they are slaughtered. (6) In natural conditions, cows can live 20 to 25 years. (7)

10. Of the 9 million dairy cows in the U.S., 3 million are slaughtered each year at only a fraction of their natural lifespan. (8) Their worn out bodies become ground beef and restaurant hamburgers. (9)
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#9 Old 08-12-2016, 06:16 PM
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I didn't even get to the egg/chicken thing, or even the cow leather thing.
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#10 Old 08-12-2016, 07:08 PM
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Super interesting question and I think the points I'd make have already been made, but I reckon no.
I know many long term veggos who have no desire to go vegan. Some because they feel there are sustainable and cruelty-free ways to be vegetarian and some because they believe veganism is better but that they couldn't do it and vegetarianism is better than nothing.
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#11 Old 08-13-2016, 12:53 PM
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Personally, for me at least, I think it's likely. After being semi-veggie for years, I made the leap to fully veg a few months ago, for ethical reasons. There was only so long I could stick my head in the sand. The research I've done since then has moved me to switch from dairy milk to soy milk, and to cut down dramatically on my cheese consumption. I still eat eggs. I can quite easily see a point in the future when I go fully vegan -- but I'm not quite there yet.
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#12 Old 08-13-2016, 02:50 PM
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Most of the vegetarians I know choose to stay vegetarian because life is much simpler with the flexibility that being a vegetarian has over going vegan.
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It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#13 Old 08-13-2016, 03:07 PM
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It's so very important to differentiate between vegetarians who replace meat with cheese and eggs and those who refrain from vegan due to eating out, inability to obsess about trace ingredients, or family constraints, and those in between. Many, if not most of the vegetarians here keep from making the vegan commitment but rarely eat or use animal products.

I often stray from vegan, and don't identify as one, because I can paint myself in a corner trying to stay away from animal tested products, or ingredients.
Last time was when I needed another spray bottle for cleaner. I had a choice of a very flimsy costlier bottle, or a .89 cent bottle of window cleaner. I realize it's stupid, but I walked around the whole discount store obsessing about it and came back and bought the window cleaner

As more people stop eating meat, understand the costs, for all animals, of eggs and dairy, being vegan will be much easier

Many Indians I know have been lacto veg from birth yet consume very little dairy, mostly in the form of yogurt or paneer which contain far less dairy than cheeses
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#14 Old 08-15-2016, 10:30 AM
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LedBoots, I think your arguments only show that without meat, dairy/eggs would necessarily need to be sold at a higher price. That would likely reduce demand and hence overall production, but it's hard to say by how much, I don't believe it would disappear 100%.


It is really amazing though to think that eating chocolate is supporting the veal industry.


I think it's quite inspirational to think that 1 little girl helped make 3 people go vegan. We may think that we have never convinced anyone else to go vegan, and wasted any such efforts, but maybe we have, and don't even know it. Maybe it was someone listening in on a group conversation, that did not even contribute, and you were barely aware was there, and never even spoke to, that decided to search for articles online after hearing you speak. They then become vegan, never tell you, and you never see them again.
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#15 Old 08-17-2016, 01:51 PM
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I was a vegetarian for four years before going vegan. I didn't really think about going vegan until soon before I went for it, I'm not really sure why. My boyfriend turned vegetarian when he met me, and he already doesn't drink milk and eats basically a vegan diet, except he doesn't check labels too religiously so he can't call himself vegan yet. He definitely hears a lot about animal rights from me, so I assume he will go full vegan eventually.

I think have a vegan in your life can help you decide to make the transition. I didn't really know any vegans before I transitioned so I didn't really consider it until my roommate at the time said she wanted to try going vegan. Then a light bulb went off in my head and I figured I would try it as well. Now it's been over a year!
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#16 Old 08-17-2016, 02:02 PM
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I personally don't think ALL vegetarians are bound to turn vegan any more than ALL omnis are bound to turn veggie. Everyone has a personal limit of what is comfortable and sustainable to them. I have known people who are vegan go back to being lacto-ovo because it was simply too difficult to sustain, perhaps because of living in a remote location, lifestyle, or even sometimes mental health issues such as depression, OCD, or eating disorders. I think it's important to practice compassion to everyone, regardless of where they are on their own personal path - no one can know what another person is struggling with, and why the decisions they make are right for them at that time
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#17 Old 10-03-2016, 05:23 PM
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Love your question! And I think all has been said. I also think no, it is a personal preference. Although for me, I've been a vegetarian for 2.5 years now. Since last year on and off vegan (yeah that darn cheese and I won't call myself vegan until I totally quit everything animal). Now I am actually really paying more attention too it, so hopefully it will last!!
Me and my husband discuss a lot of environmental, animal and health issues related to animal foods which made me see that I can and need to do more for the environment, animals and with that my own health. He on the other hand agrees on everything but chooses to be 95% vegetarian or flexitarian rather (he eats meat sometimes when we go out for dinner). Because he thinks that decreasing the intake of animal products helps the good cause too. Personally a bit weird and can't see why he doesn't want to make the transition. I think because he might not want to admit this to his family, they are BIG and I mean really BIG meat eaters. My diet is constantly under discussion... But hey that is his decision you know, I respect that!
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#18 Old 10-25-2016, 10:02 AM
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There are many roads that lead us here. I tried vegetarianism for health reasons about 10 years ago. I stuck it out for a year but the temptation to eat was too strong for me because I was already eating animal products (eggs, cheese, etc).
Here I am now, 10 years later and my health was deteriorating so I took the plunge. I'm only about three months in but I can't even imagine going back. Almost all of my health symptoms have vanished and the rest are progressively going away.

Had someone told me to become vegan for animal rights, I honestly would have thought they were looney.
Now - tell me that I'm hurting myself with my typical American diet and that I can honestly do something about it and get off my meds, and I'm all ears.
But in that process, my desire to live healthier for myself and my family spills over into a automatic level of compassion towards animals because I'm no longer eating them.

All that to say - for some, it takes an event (health, emotions, etc) to get to this point and regrettably some may never arrive.
Educate gently and leave lots of room for people to make mistakes. You never know who will become a vegan in the future.
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#19 Old 12-18-2016, 12:52 AM
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I think its definitely possible. Me, for instance, I have been a vegetarian for over 5 months though I have never been a big meat eater to begin with due to watching the documentary Earthlings one night and reading more about the meat industry and it turned me off ever since and left me crying for days about where our meat comes from. I moved out of my parents house and now, living alone and with freedom, I was vegetarian for 5 months and have now taken the plunge to be vegan.

Admittedly, it seemed daunting, but I have been only doing this for 3 days, mind you (cutting out dairy products, substituting soy and almond milk for cows milk). I think the main issue for me at first, my reluctance to become a vegan, was that it seemed so difficult. I have definitely learned these past few days with good research into reading labels on food better to know which foods I am fine to eat ad ensuring certain foods are cruelty-free. I live in Australia and we don't have many options for vegans (or so I thought). Cruising down the supermarket, I was so pleased to see they have dairy-free, cruelty-free foods more than I realised. I have also learned it is important to come prepared, even if that means carrying a carton of soy milk along with you every where you go in case you want a coffee.

My parents aren't very supportive (they think I will get anemia, but I have spent days researching the best to my capability so I will get all nutrients when excluding animal products) but I definitely felt it was a natural, and right procession, to go vegan after months as a vegetarian. It seems common sense to me personally. It just takes a lot of planning to ensure you are healthy and you get adequate food (not eating junk foods, like I used to when I had dairy like chocolates lol).
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#20 Old 12-18-2016, 01:56 AM
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I think some vegetarians (notice I said some) do not think the same way that vegans do. I was one before I made the switch to veganism. I thought there was nothing wrong with keeping an animal to milk it or eat it's eggs, as long as you treat it right. I didn't eat meat because I didn't like it so I figured it was senseless to eat it. But I didn't eat vegan because I didn't feel I needed to, I thought it was fine to take things from animals as long as we give them food and shelter etc. Thinking that way I would've probably never gone vegan.

However, since I had a near death experience two years ago many things changed. I have become a very spiritual person and I have realized that other's lives are not ours to use. If we ''treat them well'' the animals are still enslaved. And we decide whether they live or die too. We kill them, and I believe strongly that killing any living being intentionally is wrong.

So since that shift in thinking happened to me, I started researching the dairy and egg industries and became appaled at what they are. And I learned that I don't need either for good nutrition. And gradually it clicked.

And now I find it easy to be vegan, but that's because it's completely aligned with my authentic sense of self. I couldn't do it differently anymore.
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#21 Old 12-18-2016, 07:01 PM
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Hm, that doesn't seem right to me. Aren't the chicken egg and chicken meat industries largely separate? Layer chickens are bred specifically for eggs and then perhaps killed for lower quality meat like soups and burgers? Broilers bred for meat being completely separate. If everyone went vegetarian that would be the end of the broiler industry, but surely the separate layer industry would continue.

Unless there were to be some public outcry over layer chickens being killed when they were economically inefficient, which already happens, but at least there is a by product at the end in the present situation, which some might find less offensive (?).

Similar argument for cows. If there is a market for cheese, surely diary cows can continue. Might be more expensive since no meat end product.

Spent laying hens are either gassed or buried alive. Not that that's any better or worse than what happens to the other birds.

http://www.upc-online.org/slaughter/report.html

As for the market for cheese, did you know that consumers have actually backed away from the product in both the UK and in the USA? And in the USA, the government is planning on spending $32 million dollars worth of cheese and egg products to prop up that industry. Instead of telling them to produce less, they're buying the 'excess'.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/n...icle-1.2782005
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#22 Old 12-19-2016, 04:37 AM
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As for the market for cheese, did you know that consumers have actually backed away from the product in both the UK and in the USA? And in the USA, the government is planning on spending $32 million dollars worth of cheese and egg products to prop up that industry. Instead of telling them to produce less, they're buying the 'excess'.
Reminds me of the time in the 1980s when CJD - 'mad-cow-disease' - was big news in the UK. As more people (like me at that time) started eating less beef, the price came down, so people still eating beef bought and consumed even more! Result was that beef production was not seriously affected.

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#23 Old 12-19-2016, 08:53 AM
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Perhaps vegans need to get politically organized. Campaigns to phase out meat and dairy subsidies so that vegan foods compete on a level playing field may be capable of gaining traction when the local land use and pollution of animal agriculture is factored in. The farmers can be offered subsidies for setting aside some land as public nature areas, and others as wilderness areas maybe with tree planting and habitats for endangered species. And then could take enough farmers out of the market that the others could survive with reduced or eliminated subsidies and perhaps make a similar profit level. Farmers could be offered subsidisies for growing organic vegetables instead. Taxes could be applied to imported meat so that local farmers don't lose out.
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#24 Old 12-19-2016, 12:04 PM
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Discussion : Are all Vegetarians bound to turn Vegan ?
What do you think ?

I personally think that someone who turned vegetarian for health, enviromental or ethical reasons has to feel concerned, and is bound to think about veganism and try to reduce his consumption of animal products.
But do you think every vegetarian is going to take it a step further ?
Do you have experiences and stories to share ?


If you mean the question literally, then obviously the answer is "no." In particular, if you are wondering whether literally 100% of vegetarians on the planet will go vegan before dying, the answer is "of course not." Some people, for example, are vegetarian because their religion requires it out of tradition and dogma (certain sects of Hinduism and Buddhism, for example), not for any reasoned ethical reason or for nutritional reasons. Since their religion doesn't require veganism, most of them won't go vegan. Beyond religious vegetarians, there are plenty of other people who have been vegetarian most or all of their life and are going to stay that way out of habit.

However, I suspect that the question has a different connotation. I suspect there is an underlying moral sentiment to the question--essentially, the question is an implicit way of lamenting the fact that some people are vegetarians but not vegan, and is essentially saying, "Vegetarians, wake up! Go vegan! You're killing animals anyway and stealing their milk!"

That, I suspect, is the real sentiment being expressed by the question, because I'm sure that SparksOfAdventure already knows the answer to the more narrow question of whether 100% of vegetarians will go vegan. (That is, they won't.)

So, to the underlying implication--that is, the sentiment that vegetarians should wake up and go vegan, I think it's a fair point, as directed to some vegetarians. I know people, for example, who have been vegetarian for much of their life with the explicit goal of not harming animals, but who eat a heavy cheese diet virtually every day. One person who I know like that is middle aged and showing the physical effects of that type of diet--fleshy, double chin, doesn't look very healthy, kind of a like a heavy meat eater. I think that that type of vegetarian may well be receptive to vegan advocacy. Perhaps some of them don't know about the cruelty in dairy and egg production.

Other vegetarians, who are doing it for reasons of religious tradition, probably would not be receptive to vegan advocacy.

Then there are people like me who are vegetarian, mostly vegan. I eat vegan almost all of the time, and I know full well about the suffering caused by dairy and egg farming. However, I eat cheese in occasional social situations (perhaps 2-4 times a month) as a compromise with the world I live in. There are others like me, and for us, vegan advocacy would generally be wasted. In fact, I'm the one who sometimes engages in vegan and vegetarian advocacy with the people around me (almost all of whom are omni).

So, I'd say that regarding what seems to be the real underlying question, I think the best answer is "it depends on the type of vegetarian."

Last edited by Dilettante; 12-19-2016 at 01:44 PM.
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#25 Old 12-19-2016, 12:07 PM
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So, I'd say that regarding what seems to be the real underlying question, I think the best answer is "it depends on the type of vegetarian."
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#26 Old 12-20-2016, 07:56 PM
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If some current predictions are correct, most will by 2050 or die, due to lack of sustainability. I think in the next decade veganism, or in other cases only vegetarianism, will be imposed by some governments and the carbon tax is going to cause some foods to be out of reach entirely to some.

I'm fine with vegetarians, I prefer them over meat eaters, but cows cheese is in the top five environmentally damaging foods aside from lamb, cows flesh, and pigs flesh.

It would be awesome if Western people weren't such selfish entitled pieces of ****, but I'm pretty sure things are going to have to get worse before they get better.

I sat in environmental science classes with idiots who kept bringing bottled water to class even after having learned how unnecessary and harmful it is. I hate American people. Maybe I just need to leave LA, but since Trump was elected, I don't have a great deal of hope for "education" without authoritarian enforcement and it makes me sad to say that.

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#27 Old 12-20-2016, 08:17 PM
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Perhaps vegans need to get politically organized. Campaigns to phase out meat and dairy subsidies so that vegan foods compete on a level playing field may be capable of gaining traction when the local land use and pollution of animal agriculture is factored in. The farmers can be offered subsidies for setting aside some land as public nature areas, and others as wilderness areas maybe with tree planting and habitats for endangered species. And then could take enough farmers out of the market that the others could survive with reduced or eliminated subsidies and perhaps make a similar profit level. Farmers could be offered subsidisies for growing organic vegetables instead. Taxes could be applied to imported meat so that local farmers don't lose out.
Things like this go on, just not on a large scale yet. With your mind perhaps you should get involved with making these things happen in your country.

My one hope in the US is that since Trump was elected some environmental leaders who are very wealthy are investing in renewable energy. One of those people is vegan Leonardo DiCaprio, so it may be exciting to see what transpires from these ventures, in regards to sustainable vegan farming. I know in the past month the state of California has acknowledged the effect of animal agriculture and dairy on the environment. Dairy farmers arent happy. But it will be ok, I do have faith in California at least. If I didn't live here I'd probably be hitchhiking to Canada. I am leaving Los Angeles by next summer for sure though, to move to NoCal, because I am in one of the more conservative spots in my state.

Good luck with spreading your ideas in Chile.
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