Veganism in your opinion - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-03-2015, 05:47 PM
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Veganism in your opinion

I only have a few questions on veganism. I have my own formed opinions on them, but I want to know other perspectives on them.

1. Is it wrong for people to call themselves vegans if they only do it for health benefits or they don't choose it for animals (at first, some start doing it for animals after they learn about the atrocities), such as whole foods plant based vegans? I know many vegans are very critical of this only being a name for those who believe in relieving the suffering of animals, but can other people be called vegan if they choose the diet for other reasons?

2. A friend brought this up to me. If there was a way that an animal can't be harmed in the production of animals, would you eat them? I think he was getting to the scientific route of taking cells from the animals and making them multiply to produce a "synthetic" type of meat.
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#2 Old 04-03-2015, 06:05 PM
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1. Being vegan is a "whole-life" experience. If someone can give up eating, drinking, wearing, cleaning-with, and using for entertainment all animals and animal products, then that person can probably say s/he's vegan. Otherwise, the term "plant-based diet" works well. I suppose it would be possible to be vegan and hate animals, but I've never known one.

2. I wouldn't have a problem with people eating synthetic meat as long as it didn't involve the killing, abuse or confinement of animals in the process. I do think it's sad that people would go to the trouble of creating synthetic meat when it is so completely unnecessary, imho.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#3 Old 04-03-2015, 06:07 PM
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1. Depends. If they eat vegan but still buy animal skin, they're not vegan (they eat a plant-based diet). It's not about health benefits being their reason to eat vegan. Being vegan is more than what one eats.
2. I don't think I would. I think it would repulse me.
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"We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form." - William Ralphe Inge

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#4 Old 04-03-2015, 06:26 PM
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1) I don't personally think there is anything wrong with dietary vegans being called vegan, perhaps dietary vegan is the correct term or plant-based-diet follower. I started off more concerned about diet and health and have been inching towards caring more about animal welfare. It was a surprise to me to see that vegans were healthy and not all hippy types.

2) I think it would be an improvement (purely from an animals rights perspective) but the original sin of taking something from an animal would repel many. For me I am very wary of science messing about with DNA of plants, animals - anything in a lab etc now. I do think though that where you can't make everyone vegan overnight or shut down industries, you can fight for improvements in their practice, increased awareness/knowledge of practice and it's effects on the planet, medications, health etc. It might be abhorrent to many vegans, I personally think that if you have sheep and they are used for wool only and that practice is non harming, then I'm not sure I have an issue with it, as a natural fiber it would arguably be better for the environment and it would give sheep a purpose to those who otherwise care not one jot for their existence. I do ask what vegans think will happen to the animals if humankind decides there is no use for them at all and in many cases I see an argument for us and animals working together as close to equals as is possible. I don't think necessarily that we have to have a non-contact relationship with animals etc but we are light years away from good practice that I could support anyway. That's where I'm at, I'm sure there is many that disagree.
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#5 Old 04-03-2015, 07:21 PM
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Vegan does mean being against animal exploitation. It's simply unnecessary. You don't need to have personal feeling towards someone to be their advocate.
I will say I've know people to go on a plant based diet purely for health reasons who have become enlightened to veganism

I do want them to create synthetic meat for cat food.
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#6 Old 04-04-2015, 08:12 AM
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Veganism encompasses all aspects of lifestyle, from what you eat to what you wear. Nobody gives up wearing leather and fur for health reasons, so no, they aren't vegans. They eat a plant-based diet.

I have no moral qualms with synthetic meat, but I wouldn't eat it, personally. It just doesn't sound appealing to me. I never enjoyed meat to begin with and I love plant foods, so why bother?
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#7 Old 04-04-2015, 09:07 AM
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1. I don't think it is "wrong" in the moral sense for health plant-based diet folks to call themselves vegan, but I think it is an incorrect term if they use animal skins for clothing and furniture, and household/beauty products made with animal parts.

2. If they create synthetic meat, yay! I don't need it, but it would probably cut down on animal slaughter, so I'm all for it.
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#8 Old 04-04-2015, 09:18 AM
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1) I don't personally think there is anything wrong with dietary vegans being called vegan, perhaps dietary vegan is the correct term or plant-based-diet follower. I started off more concerned about diet and health and have been inching towards caring more about animal welfare. It was a surprise to me to see that vegans were healthy and not all hippy types.

2) I think it would be an improvement (purely from an animals rights perspective) but the original sin of taking something from an animal would repel many. For me I am very wary of science messing about with DNA of plants, animals - anything in a lab etc now. I do think though that where you can't make everyone vegan overnight or shut down industries, you can fight for improvements in their practice, increased awareness/knowledge of practice and it's effects on the planet, medications, health etc. It might be abhorrent to many vegans, I personally think that if you have sheep and they are used for wool only and that practice is non harming, then I'm not sure I have an issue with it, as a natural fiber it would arguably be better for the environment and it would give sheep a purpose to those who otherwise care not one jot for their existence. I do ask what vegans think will happen to the animals if humankind decides there is no use for them at all and in many cases I see an argument for us and animals working together as close to equals as is possible. I don't think necessarily that we have to have a non-contact relationship with animals etc but we are light years away from good practice that I could support anyway. That's where I'm at, I'm sure there is many that disagree.
Wool from sheep is not environmentally friendly. And there is pretty much no way to raise animals for their wool that is not exploiting them.

As far as What Would Happen To The Existing Farm Animals, that is a question asked often to trap vegans. Wool producers would stop force breeding and stealing babies from their mothers for leg of lamb on Easter Sunday. And the animals that we modified and bred would probably die off, some sooner, some later. If they ever stopped the animal exploitation, I would adopt a sheep if my area let me. And maybe some chickens.

From a healthy 56-year old 10 year vegan proud hippie type.
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#9 Old 04-04-2015, 12:38 PM
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Hi

As a person transitioning to a vegan diet right now I'd say my answer to 1) not wrong but inaccurate as I understand the term vegan (being an entire lifestyle and philosophy) and as for 2) no I don't think I would because my reason for eating like this is all about the health benefits.

Personally I'm not particularly an animal lover. I'm very interested in them. I find them fascinating (I love watching the birds in my garden - better than telly). I actively avoid (as in go out of my way to) a lot of animal products - but this is often for an environmental reason. So I guess I'm transitioning to veganism for selfish and non animal rights reasons.
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#10 Old 04-04-2015, 07:56 PM
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Personally I'm not particularly an animal lover. I'm very interested in them. I find them fascinating (I love watching the birds in my garden - better than telly). I actively avoid (as in go out of my way to) a lot of animal products - but this is often for an environmental reason. So I guess I'm transitioning to veganism for selfish and non animal rights reasons.
I kind of see myself in the same light. I agree with everything vegans say, and I somehow, for the most part without trying, steer clearly of non-vegan items (I own no clothing that is from an animal). I feel that people should be able to call themselves vegan (while understanding the difference between their diet and the definition of the word) but I think most find it easier to explain to onmis (some who still believe that to be vegetarian means you can eat chicken and fish... Ugh). I find it harder to call myself vegan since there are so many vegans who automatically attack you because it confuses the true meaning of veganism. I understand their viewpoint and how important it is to them, but until omnis are educated in what it truly means to be vegetarian (let alone vegan), it's easier to say "vegan" than a long explanation of what I follow, which typically confuses them anyways.
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#11 Old 04-04-2015, 08:31 PM
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I kind of see myself in the same light. I agree with everything vegans say, and I somehow, for the most part without trying, steer clearly of non-vegan items (I own no clothing that is from an animal). I feel that people should be able to call themselves vegan (while understanding the difference between their diet and the definition of the word) but I think most find it easier to explain to onmis (some who still believe that to be vegetarian means you can eat chicken and fish... Ugh). I find it harder to call myself vegan since there are so many vegans who automatically attack you because it confuses the true meaning of veganism. I understand their viewpoint and how important it is to them, but until omnis are educated in what it truly means to be vegetarian (let alone vegan), it's easier to say "vegan" than a long explanation of what I follow, which typically confuses them anyways.
That's an interesting viewpoint. You can call yourself whatever you want, tbh. The Vegan Police Force doesn't really exist.

If you want to use the "vegan" word, maybe you could say "dietary vegan" or I only eat vegan food" for clarity.

Although I've been vegan for ten years, I nearly always say I'm "vegetarian" or "strict vegetarian" when the topic comes up with non-veg*ns (usually at a meal, sigh.). Reason being that so many of them recoil in horror at the word 'vegan', as if I'm going to start throwing lettuce at them for eating an animal or wearing her skin for shoes.
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#12 Old 04-04-2015, 08:34 PM
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Hi

As a person transitioning to a vegan diet right now I'd say my answer to 1) not wrong but inaccurate as I understand the term vegan (being an entire lifestyle and philosophy) and as for 2) no I don't think I would because my reason for eating like this is all about the health benefits.

Personally I'm not particularly an animal lover. I'm very interested in them. I find them fascinating (I love watching the birds in my garden - better than telly). I actively avoid (as in go out of my way to) a lot of animal products - but this is often for an environmental reason. So I guess I'm transitioning to veganism for selfish and non animal rights reasons.
I don't care why you are transitioning, I'm just glad you are, both for your good health and for the animals that won't be killed for you to eat. Your reasons aren't selfish, just different from mine.

Best of luck in your transition!
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#13 Old 04-04-2015, 11:37 PM
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I would eat synthetic meat, I wish it came sooner and becomes far less costly than killing animals for meat. That would make(hopefully) huge dents into the current practices.
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#14 Old 04-05-2015, 03:07 AM
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Wool from sheep is not environmentally friendly. And there is pretty much no way to raise animals for their wool that is not exploiting them.

As far as What Would Happen To The Existing Farm Animals, that is a question asked often to trap vegans. Wool producers would stop force breeding and stealing babies from their mothers for leg of lamb on Easter Sunday. And the animals that we modified and bred would probably die off, some sooner, some later. If they ever stopped the animal exploitation, I would adopt a sheep if my area let me. And maybe some chickens.

From a healthy 56-year old 10 year vegan proud hippie type.

I'm not sure that cotton and hemp are suitable for every type of apparel and compared to synthetic/petrochemical fibers I would argue that wool is preferable from an environment stand point. If we were to move to a point where sheep essentially lived as they pleased on a hillside and "paid" wool in rent for abode, food and vet treatment, I'm not sure I'd have an issue with it as I said personally. If the animals we modified "would probably die off", am I to take it from that we found deny them the right to reproduce etc in order to solve our problem? There's a contradiction in ethics somewhere there I'm sure.

I see the argument of stopping using animals for everything, ethically sound, if however we look at the realities I find it difficult to imagine that in the future we will not need to set up nature reserves in such a way to counter desertification and other damaging environmental issues. I can also see a world where animals are arguably "treated" worse due to having no monetary value and limited space they fight it out for whats left, starvation and fights with fellow creatures magnified over what it ideally should be. If we have dogs for blind people, or to detect cancer and they are treated well considering the alternative of casting them into the wild - is that such a bad thing? I know we're a long way from getting people to be aware of the realities surrounding food etc but looking beyond that I find there is grey area's where I'm not sure the black and white answer solves anything and may in fact be worse when you take a step back to think about it.

I don't really want to delve into the nuts and bolts of this currently but can you see where I am coming from?
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#15 Old 04-05-2015, 04:31 AM
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I'm not sure that cotton and hemp are suitable for every type of apparel and compared to synthetic/petrochemical fibers I would argue that wool is preferable from an environment stand point. If we were to move to a point where sheep essentially lived as they pleased on a hillside and "paid" wool in rent for abode, food and vet treatment, I'm not sure I'd have an issue with it as I said personally. If the animals we modified "would probably die off", am I to take it from that we found deny them the right to reproduce etc in order to solve our problem? There's a contradiction in ethics somewhere there I'm sure.

I see the argument of stopping using animals for everything, ethically sound, if however we look at the realities I find it difficult to imagine that in the future we will not need to set up nature reserves in such a way to counter desertification and other damaging environmental issues. I can also see a world where animals are arguably "treated" worse due to having no monetary value and limited space they fight it out for whats left, starvation and fights with fellow creatures magnified over what it ideally should be. If we have dogs for blind people, or to detect cancer and they are treated well considering the alternative of casting them into the wild - is that such a bad thing? I know we're a long way from getting people to be aware of the realities surrounding food etc but looking beyond that I find there is grey area's where I'm not sure the black and white answer solves anything and may in fact be worse when you take a step back to think about it.

I don't really want to delve into the nuts and bolts of this currently but can you see where I am coming from?
I do want to delve into the nuts and bolts, since the subject was brought up. If I just fling my feelings about this around, it doesn't help anything, does it?
So.
1. Cotton is actually horrible for the environment.

" Water impacts
It can take more than 20,000 litres of water to produce 1kg of cotton; equivalent to a single T-shirt and pair of jeans. 73% of global cotton harvest comes from irrigated land (as documented in the WWF report The Impact of Cotton on Freshwater Resources and Ecosystems).
Chemicals" ~more here http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth..._crops/cotton/

2. If sheep are treated humanely, letting them live out their lives normally, the "rent" they pay (!) by humans shearing them would not pay for the care of the animals, especially the older sheep, never mind the large swaths of land needed for them to graze.
_______

" Sheep were tamed for several uses that still apply today. The sheep were first used for meat, skins, milk and wool. Sheep are still used for these basic purposes plus many more. Sheep by-products are in many items that we use everyday." http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/an_sci/exte...sheepfacts.htm

----------
Age at Slaughter 8mths 6m. 4m
Live Weight 160 lb. 125 lb. 85 lb.
Dressing (%) 57 % 52 % 45 %
Fat Thickness .50 in. .25 in. .05 in.
Ribeye Area 3.6 in. 2.6 in.2 1.5 in.2
Kidney, Pelvic & Heart Fat (%KPH) --------- ----- 3.0 % 1.5 %6.0% 3.0%
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/an_sci/exte...sheepfacts.htm
____________
3. I was thinking mostly of the cows being modified so much by humans that they can barely breed. Dairy cows are forcibly inseminated a couple of months after their newborns are stolen from them again and again until they stop producing enough milk to be profitable, and then they are slaughtered. The male baby cows have a much shorter life.
___________
Here's some stuff about sheep breeding:
.
"Use of intact male fitted with aprons:

Male with aprons:
An apron is tied on the abdomen of the male to cover the penis.
The apron is made of a soft piece of cloth measuring 60x45 cm with strings on four sides to tie it properly. This prevents mating.
The apron should be washed daily and checked for holes or tears to avoid unwanted mating.
There is a risk of fertile mating if the apron is not securely fastened and checked frequently.
Inflammation, irritation and infection of penis and prepuce area can occur, resulting in inhibited sexual desire and mounting behaviour.
The ram/buck are apronized and allowed in to the flock for identification of animals in the morning and evening for about 15 to 20minutes.
Teasure ram/buck detects the females in heat, which are marked and separated out for breeding with desired ram."

......" Artificial insemination
Artificial insemination offer the best means of distributing germplasm from nucleus breeding flock to many small flocks within each eco system.
Fresh as well as frozen semen is used.
The speculum method of insemination is used for ewes and does.
Generally artificial insemination leads to lower reproductive rate than natural service and frozen semen gives even much low pregnancy rate that is around 40%.
Cervical insemination is generally followed for better conception rate."
http://agridr.in/expert_system/sheep...nd%20Goat.html

4. If we do have to sterilize some of the animals at first because there are so many, it isn't the worst thing in the world. Many cats and dogs are spayed and neutered. Key West, Florida has wild hens and roosters walking around; it is agsinst the law to interfere with them.

5. I don't think anyone is considering taking a blind person's service animal and letting it free. I do have objections to dolphins and seals delivering bombs to blow up submarines, though. I hear they are using dogs for bomb retrieval on land now, too.

More stuff but this post is getting looonnnggg..
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#16 Old 04-05-2015, 05:14 AM
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I wish there was a way to reduce human breeding a la "utopia" TV show. That would solve a lot.
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#17 Old 04-06-2015, 07:10 PM
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Being vegan means not causing harm, suffering, death, etc. to animals.....including using their byproducts like milk, etc. for food. Your motivation can be health, spiritual, animal rights, whatever.

Start by eating fruits and veggies.....then branch out to rice, legumes, pasta, etc.

If what you're eating has anything to do with animals.....like a boiled egg on a salad.....bacon bits.....or cream cheese......you've gone too far.

Maybe this will help.....

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All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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#18 Old 04-08-2015, 02:36 PM
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Being vegan means not causing harm, suffering, death, etc. to animals.....including using their byproducts like milk, etc. for food. Your motivation can be health, spiritual, animal rights, whatever.

Start by eating fruits and veggies.....then branch out to rice, legumes, pasta, etc.

If what you're eating has anything to do with animals.....like a boiled egg on a salad.....bacon bits.....or cream cheese......you've gone too far.

Maybe this will help.....

Attachment 7970
This was actually posted in the wrong category. The post itself was asking your opinion on the questions above.
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#19 Old 04-08-2015, 03:14 PM
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Hey.
If you only abstain from animal products for dietary purposes that makes you a vegetarian, or strict vegetarian. Vegan is an ethical term and includes not using any animal products including leather and wool. Personally I don't get worked up if people use the word vegan to describe their purely dietary choices though.

I would not eat meat even if it were grown in the lab. Each cell taken from a live animal can only produce so many cells, or so much meat, before it is exhausted. Therefore, animals must still be kept for the raising of their flesh, and their owners will be focused on profit more than the wellbeing of the animal. Also, this continues the idea that animals belong to us, to use and abuse as we desire to satiate our cravings. I do not think there is a way to culture actual animal flesh with no harm to any animal. Even if there were, animal flesh is so unhealthy. As for synthetic flesh, check out soy based meats. A lot easier than what you're speaking of and they are getting tastier and more diverse every year.


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#20 Old 04-08-2015, 03:40 PM
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What is to stop cells being voluntarily taken from human animals? The "meat" produced would then be ok for vegans to consume wouldn't it? A bit like a human baby drinking its human mother's milk. No need to involve animals at all.
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#21 Old 04-08-2015, 05:55 PM
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This was actually posted in the wrong category. The post itself was asking your opinion on the questions above.
Sorry.....I thought I was answering the question, but probably not.

My new answer: You can call yourself a "vegan" depending on your own definition.

In practice, however, anything that harms or causes suffering to a living being is contrary to the concept that I know as veganism.

Your motivation can be animal rights, health, spirituality, or something else. As long as it reduces animal suffering, I'm down with it!!!!

All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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