Honey superthread: discuss [non]vegan-ness of honey here - Page 63 - VeggieBoards
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#1861 Old 05-11-2014, 12:03 PM
 
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A total amount of harm caused by alternatives to honey is difficult for me to calculate. I grew up in New England, saw maple trees being tapped, the sap boiled down. The amount of energy needed to do this is not as obvious to me as the direct walking over to a man -made hive, dressed in sting resistant clothing, and taking the honeybees' honey.

Probably not logical to you, but I'm not going to calculate indirect harm, I will instead avoid the obvious direct harm. I absolutely don't want to and won't debate honey, or the environmental damage done to my beloved everglades by Big Sugar. I just live my life avoiding direct harm as best I can by not consuming or using obvious animal products.

I miss the maples in New England in the autumn.

Interesting images I stumbled on while getting a maple tree image. smiley.gif

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/05/09/how-to-make-maple-syrup-like-a-vermonter/ Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
u5araveg.jpgadusyryt.jpgunetuse9.jpgypu3udeh.jpge7ada4yr.jpgy7ejupar.jpg

 

FYI: most traditionally-tapped maple syrup uses pig fat/bacon grease as a defoaming agent.

 

I buy maple syrup only from large producers that use synthetic defoaming agent (and less ecologically damaging automated tap systems).

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#1862 Old 05-11-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post


A total amount of harm caused by alternatives to honey is difficult for me to calculate. I grew up in New England, saw maple trees being tapped, the sap boiled down. The amount of energy needed to do this is not as obvious to me as the direct walking over to a man -made hive, dressed in sting resistant clothing, and taking the honeybees' honey.

Probably not logical to you, but I'm not going to calculate indirect harm, I will instead avoid the obvious direct harm. I absolutely don't want to and won't debate honey, or the environmental damage done to my beloved everglades by Big Sugar. I just live my life avoiding direct harm as best I can by not consuming or using obvious animal products.

I miss the maples in New England in the autumn.

Interesting images I stumbled on while getting a maple tree image. smiley.gif

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/05/09/how-to-make-maple-syrup-like-a-vermonter/ Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
u5araveg.jpgadusyryt.jpgunetuse9.jpgypu3udeh.jpge7ada4yr.jpgy7ejupar.jpg

 

FYI: most traditionally-tapped maple syrup uses pig fat/bacon grease as a defoaming agent.

 

I buy maple syrup only from large producers that use synthetic defoaming agent (and less ecologically damaging automated tap systems).

Yes I know, thank you.
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#1863 Old 05-11-2014, 12:50 PM
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e
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A total amount of harm caused by alternatives to honey is difficult for me to calculate. I grew up in New England, saw maple trees being tapped, the sap boiled down. The amount of energy needed to do this is not as obvious to me as the direct walking over to a man -made hive, dressed in sting resistant clothing, and taking the honeybees' honey.
I grew up around pastured cattle and vegetable/fruit farms in California. The conditions of these cattle were idyllic, I'd often visit them when I was hiking/mountain biking. When there were calves they'd usually chase me away. But I'd never base my views of modern beef production on my childhood memories. My argument here isn't that maple is worse than honey, but instead that there are a number of "vegan" sweeteners that are environmentally intensive and as a result have a lot of indirect harm. If veganism is going to be more than an arbitrary list of forbidden products, one would have to demonstrate that honey involves more total harm than other common "vegan" sweeteners.

In any case, I'm not sure how the harm done to bee colonies in the case of honey is any easier to calculate then the harm done in the production of other sweeteners. After all, just because you are taking their honey doesn't mean you've harmed them in some way. Honey is not the primary food of bees, its their way of storing energy for the winter.
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#1864 Old 05-11-2014, 12:52 PM
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FYI: most traditionally-tapped maple syrup uses pig fat/bacon grease as a defoaming agent.
I didn't now that, that makes the vegan position even stranger.
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#1865 Old 05-11-2014, 02:54 PM
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FYI: most traditionally-tapped maple syrup uses pig fat/bacon grease as a defoaming agent.

 

 

This is what Jo Stepaniak says in Grassroots Veganism. link

 

At one time, maple syrup producers routinely added a small amount of lard, an animal fat, during processing to minimize foaming. In recent years, this practice has been eliminated by nearly all maple syrup companies. Instead, a small quantity of vegetable oil is typically used. If you have a concern and want to verify how your maple syrup was made, contact the producer directly. You can also check the label for a "kosher" marking. Kosher maple syrup is not processed with lard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

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#1866 Old 05-11-2014, 03:02 PM
 
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I didn't now that, that makes the vegan position even stranger.

 

This is going to sound a bit harsh but I view vegans who ignore indirect harm to be similar to a "dry drunk". They abstain from direct consumption but continue behaving as if they were omnivores.

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#1867 Old 05-11-2014, 03:09 PM
 
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This is what Jo Stepaniak says in Grassroots Veganism. link

 

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/faqingredients.htm#maple

 

most maple syrup on the market comes from the canadian maple syrup cabal which uses modern technology including permanent taps that transfer maple syrup to a central facility. i agree that the kosher symbol is a good indication that it's probably vegan.

 

 

small batch vermont maple syrup traditionally uses pig fat. and rural vermont is very traditional.

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#1868 Old 05-11-2014, 03:30 PM
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Am I correct in thinking ue, that what you're saying is that because all* maple syrup, including small batch syrup produced using pig fat, goes into a central mixing facility, it's not possible to say that the end product is suitable for vegans? Sorry,  I'm not able to spot where you get that info from?
 
*except that that's certified kosher 
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#1869 Old 05-11-2014, 04:22 PM
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I didn't now that, that makes the vegan position even stranger.

 

This is going to sound a bit harsh but I view vegans who ignore indirect harm to be similar to a "dry drunk". They abstain from direct consumption but continue behaving as if they were omnivores.

That does sound a bit harsh, yes.

Perhaps you would be happy if we all became breatharians.
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#1870 Old 05-11-2014, 04:24 PM
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Breatharians who do not walk on the ground nor ride in or on vehicles. Perhaps the breathing is also harmful due to the hogging of thr animals' oxygen and the carbon dioxide output.
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#1871 Old 05-11-2014, 04:36 PM
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That does sound a bit harsh, yes.

Perhaps you would be happy if we all became breatharians.
You don't think its a bit hypocritical to care about when animals are killed directly but then turn a blind eye to the various ways we inflict indirect harm on animals?

So, to say it again, if you have two actions X and Y and both result in the same total harm to animal life.....what basis is there to prefer one or the other? Its not like these issues don't come up, a common anti-vegan argument is to note all the small animal deaths that occur in the cultivation of grains, legumes, etc. You don't have to search far to find a strong veg*n counter-argument to this line of reasoning......but I'm still searching for such an argument for honey and similar issues.

Are you aware of any vegan or vegan group that has demonstrated that honey results in more total harm to animal life than alternatives?
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#1872 Old 05-11-2014, 05:18 PM
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Are you aware of any vegan or vegan group that has demonstrated that honey results in more total harm to animal life than alternatives?

 

I'm a vegan so I don't consume honey, no problem as I don't like it anyway.

 

Neither do consume the alternatives either.

 

In both instances, I'm causing no harm to animal life.

 

(As you've indicated, you're not bothered about the lives and suffering of insects, logic, so they won't enter into the equation for you.)

 

So how many vegans do not eat honey and do not eat alternatives, logic? I assume from your concern for animals (not insects of course) that you will have a pretty good idea? 

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#1873 Old 05-11-2014, 07:03 PM
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Good grief, is this thread STILL going? :stinkeye:

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#1874 Old 05-11-2014, 11:27 PM
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Neither do consume the alternatives either.
You don't eat any sweeteners? But whether you eat sweeteners is besides the point, there are numerous sweeteners that are considered "vegan" yet there doesn't seem to be any convincing argument that they involve less harm than honey.

And everything one eats causes harm to animal life, its just a question of how much.
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(As you've indicated, you're not bothered about the lives and suffering of insects, logic, so they won't enter into the equation for you.)
What I've said is that I don't think insects have the ability to "suffer" and that I only care about them insofar as they are part of the ecosystem. In other words I think of them much like plants. But whether one thinks insects have the ability to suffer or not, you still have the same problem, namely its not clear in what sense honey involves more harm to animal life than "vegan" sweeteners.

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So how many vegans do not eat honey and do not eat alternatives, logic?
This question is a bit confusing because according to you, and this website, all vegans don't eat honey because honey isn't vegan. Or are you admitting that there are some vegans that eat honey? In either case, I'm not sure how many "vegans" eat honey (and conversely how many avoid it) and how many avoid all sweeteners. Though I reckon the vast majority of vegans make use of some sweeteners.
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#1875 Old 05-12-2014, 03:16 AM
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You don't eat any sweeteners? But whether you eat sweeteners is besides the point, there are numerous sweeteners that are considered "vegan" yet there doesn't seem to be any convincing argument that they involve less harm than honey.

 

Considered vegan by whom? Where are your scientific studies? Or are you being anecdotal, which is what you accuse others of?

 

 
And everything one eats causes harm to animal life, its just a question of how much.

 

My boat sank and I've just been washed up on a desert island.(:D) Near the beach, I find a blueberry bush so I eat one of the berries. How is that causing harm to animal life?

 

 
 But whether one thinks insects have the ability to suffer or not, you still have the same problem, namely its not clear in what sense honey involves more harm to animal life than "vegan" sweeteners.

 

One could say the same of the reverse position so you being anecdotal may not necessarily persuade anyone that your reasoning is correct.

 
This question is a bit confusing because according to you, and this website, all vegans don't eat honey because honey isn't vegan. Or are you admitting that there are some vegans that eat honey? 

 

I should have phrased my question " How many people who do not eat honey except in extremis (because they are vegan), do not eat honey alternatives either?".

 

Can I just clarify that there could be situations where I consider that the reasonable thing for a vegan to do, would be to eat honey eg where otherwise the vegan would be in danger of dying from hunger. So I can't say that a vegan would never eat honey. 

 

 

In either case, I'm not sure how many "vegans" eat honey (and conversely how many avoid it) and how many avoid all sweeteners. Though I reckon the vast majority of vegans make use of some sweeteners.

 

"I reckon"? You're being anecdotal again.

 

Anyway, supposing your position is correct and that altogether there is more harm caused to animal life in honey alternative production than in the production of honey. Since the consumption of neither is necessary to maintain  life (in normal circumstances),  but is a dietary choice, shouldn't you be banging your drum for everyone, vegans included, to avoid both? Or would consumption of honey, being the "lesser of two evils" somehow make it not really evil at all, which is why you seem to be ok with its consumption?

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#1876 Old 05-12-2014, 03:18 AM
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Good grief, is this thread STILL going? :stinkeye:

Yes and still going nowhere...:D

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#1877 Old 05-12-2014, 01:09 PM
 
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That does sound a bit harsh, yes.
Perhaps you would be happy if we all became breatharians.
Breatharians who do not walk on the ground nor ride in or on vehicles. Perhaps the breathing is also harmful due to the hogging of thr animals' oxygen and the carbon dioxide output.

 

It's ironic that both you and leedsveg are accusing me of advocating for perfection when I'm arguing for inclusiveness.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by leedsveg

Yes and still going nowhere...:D

 

I became involved in this debate when moderators made statements that people who eat honey are "not-vegan" on the site support forum. I'm not posting here because I want to debate whether honey is vegan (boring), I'm posting here because I think calling vegans out as "not-vegan" is a crappy thing to do.

 

 

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#1878 Old 05-12-2014, 02:10 PM
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Considered vegan by whom? Where are your scientific studies? Or are you being anecdotal, which is what you accuse others of?
Considered by vegans, of course. Maple syrup, brown rice syrup, agave, etc are all generally accepted as "vegan". Your asking for a study that shows that these other sweeteners are concerned vegan? I'm not sure what you're asking for....
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My boat sank and I've just been washed up on a desert island.(grin.gif ) Near the beach, I find a blueberry bush so I eat one of the berries. How is that causing harm to animal life?
I'm not sure what this contrived example has to do with modern agricultural and sounds a bit like some arguments I've heard from pro-jmeat folks but its pretty much impossible to pick blueberries without killing insects. In your example, I reckon some animals will get killed as you wash up on the beach, walk over the the blueberry bush, etc.

The idea that vegans don't cause harm to animals is, obviously, mistaken which is why many define veganism as a lifestyle that "reduces animal suffer as much as practically possible" rather than a lifestyle that causes no harm.

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Anyway, supposing your position is correct and that altogether there is more harm caused to animal life in honey alternative production than in the production of honey. Since the consumption of neither is necessary to maintain  life (in normal circumstances),  but is a dietary choice, shouldn't you be banging your drum for everyone, vegans included, to avoid both?
No because its not obvious that the production of sweeteners is, in general, any worse than the production of other foods like fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc. We have to eat something so we have no choice to cause harm to animal life but we can reduce animal harm as much as practically possible. As such, if one is going to suggest that its okay to eat brown rice syrup, agave, etc and not honey there needs to be a good argument that honey involves more animal harm than the alternatives. Where is this argument?

I'm not sure why you keep suggesting I'm being "anecdotal", I've been discussing the ethics of honey and asking questions which have gone unanswered.
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#1879 Old 05-15-2014, 12:14 PM
 
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I'm a vegan so I don't consume honey, no problem as I don't like it anyway.
This debate is not only about you. A significant percentage of people who identify as vegan either eat honey or do not actively avoid it. If one of these people came up to you and said, "I am a vegan who occasionally eats honey", would you challenge them?

And if you were willing to label these people "non-vegan" would you also label vegans who eat SEA palm oil non-vegan? And, if not, then why not?
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#1880 Old 05-16-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quick question - how much B12 do u guys take? How often? I take 1 weekly now .
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#1881 Old 05-16-2014, 11:37 AM
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You're going to find disagreement on these things within the vegan community** so its something you're going to have to decide for yourself. It depends, I think, what veganism means to you. If veganism is just a lifestyle that "avoids animal products as much as possible" then these products should be avoided. One the other hand if veganism to you is an ethical position that tries to "reduces animal suffering as much as practically possible" its not clear that these products are any worse, in terms of animal suffering, than the alternatives. Similarly if one is primarily vegan for health then there is no good reason to avoid these products.

** While there is disagreement in the greater vegan community (e.g., 20~30% of vegans eat honey), this website doesn't consider honey vegan. I'm not sure about lanolin.
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#1882 Old 05-16-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quick question - how much B12 do u guys take? How often? I take 1 weekly now .
1000 mcg 2~3 times a week plus whatever I get from fortified foods (mostly fortified soy milk)
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#1883 Old 05-16-2014, 12:14 PM
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"Vegans believe that gathering honey can harm to bees.

The official vegan position stands firmly against eating honey. Both the American Vegan Society and the British Vegan Society, the founding organization of veganism, prohibit the use of honey for those who wish to call themselves vegan, according to author and vegan Jo Stepaniak. But some vegetarians who follow the rules of veganism in every other way make an exception for honey. The philosophy of veganism -- to do no intentional harm to any living thing -- precludes eating honey, according to most vegans..."

..."About 1 percent of Americans followed a vegan diet in 2010, according to the "Encyclopedia of Lifestyle Medicine and Health," with another 1 percent following a vegan diet with the exception of eating honey. People who follow a vegan diet for its health benefits more than out of concern for animal rights are more likely to consume honey, according to an article published in the January 1988 issue of "Vegetarian Times."
http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/wont...oney-2938.html
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#1884 Old 05-16-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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** While there is disagreement in the greater vegan community (e.g., 20~30% of vegans eat honey), this website doesn't consider honey vegan. I'm not sure about lanolin.
many vegans who do not eat honey are tolerant of those who do. imo, honey is far less controversial than it once was.


*******************************

lanolin is something i avoid because sheep husbandry is a very cruel business for the most part.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...stry/mulesing/
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#1885 Old 05-16-2014, 12:58 PM
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The official vegan position stands firmly against eating honey. Both the American Vegan Society and the British Vegan Society, the founding organization of veganism, prohibit the use of honey for those who wish to call themselves vegan, according to author and vegan Jo Stepaniak. "
What makes it "the official" position? Because two vegan groups say it? Vegan Outreach and numerous other prominent vegans don't think honey, or similar issues, should be a litmus test for veganism.

I think honey eating vegans have more to worry about than whether this or that vegan society thinks they are vegan or not. Who cares?
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#1886 Old 05-16-2014, 01:03 PM
 
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Quick question - how much B12 do u guys take? How often? I take 1 weekly now .
i take 1500 ug a week (deva sublingual) but mostly as a prophylactic since i get plenty of B12 from soy milk/soy yogurt* (at least a full serving a day) and fortified nutritional yeast* (several tablespoons a day on average). i recommend that even vegans who consume foods fortified with B12 take a supplement.

*some brands of soy milk and nutritional yeast are not fortified.
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#1887 Old 05-16-2014, 01:04 PM
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lanolin is something i avoid because sheep husbandry is a very cruel business for the most part.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...stry/mulesing/
Yes but its the sort of thing that could, in principle, be done in a way that respects the animals so whether one avoids it should be contextual rather than fixed. Also its more or less a byproduct of the wool industry.

I'm not sure whether I use a product that contains lanolin or not, not something I look for.
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#1888 Old 05-16-2014, 01:07 PM
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This is the vegan SUPPORT forum. If you want to start more arguments about honey there's already a thread for that in the Compost Heap.
My comments were on topic and related to the question in the OP. If the only responses that are allowed are those that our consist with the views of the websites mod team then perhaps these sorts of topics should be moved out of the vegan forum? I don't think people post these questions because they want to hear only one point of view....
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#1889 Old 05-16-2014, 01:21 PM
 
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The official vegan position stands firmly against eating honey.[/url]
I disagree completely. The average vegan is far more likely to be familiar with Vegan Outreach or Vegan.org/Vegan Action than a fossil of an organization like the British Vegan Society.
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#1890 Old 05-16-2014, 01:23 PM
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They didn't ask for yet another debate about whether or not animal products are vegan. They aren't.
I wasn't debating whether "animal products are vegan or not" instead I was noting that not all vegans believe that honey should be a forbidden. This is simply the fact of the matter, for example both Vegan Action and Vegan Outreach don't think honey should be a litmus test for veganism and should be a matter of personal choice. Its unfortunate, I think, that you insist that your personal view on the matter is the only position within the vegan community. Its not.


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There's already a massive thread of pointless debating in the Compost Heap you can go to if you want but keep it out of the support forum please.
Its nice that you think the concerns and debates of others are "pointless".
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