Honey superthread: discuss [non]vegan-ness of honey here - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 01-16-2009, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverDratini View Post

I'm actually wondering if I should reconsider my decision not to consume honey.



http://www.britishbee.org.uk/bbka_research_campaign.php



Now, if the above is true, then maybe it would be more ethically responsible for me to financially fund bee-keepers by buying honey. I haven't decided yet, though.



That's why after ~10 months vegan I decided to add honey back to my diet. I could be wrong, I find it ethically responsible to the local bees, and to the environment. I could also be completely wrong about vegetarianism being good for me. I just gotta trust my gut instinct. : shrug :
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#62 Old 01-16-2009, 03:47 AM
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I clicked on the silkwork link - the owner of the site goes off on one about a vegan having a 'rant' when she actually only wrote a polite note asking them not to call their silk vegan.



http://www.aurorasilk.com/tutorials_...ntroversy.html



sticking all those emails on her site actually makes her look a bit mental
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#63 Old 01-16-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jemdude View Post

From what I have read, all the major vegan societies disallow honey, but many individual vegans still use it.



There is no such thing as a vegan that eats honey. Vegans don't eat animal products. Honey is most definitely an animal product. It has never ever ever grown on trees, in the ground or on a bush.



Makes absolutely no sense so say that "individual vegans use honey".



It's like saying that all major human rights associations disallow torture many individual human rights supporters still practice it.



Or that all major vegetarian socities disallow rabbit meat, but many individual vegetarians still eat it.



Honey is not vegan. So how can a vegan eat honey????



(I really do not get it why some wannabe-vegans absolutely try and worm and twist their way around persuading themselves that it's okay to eat honey. I mean, it's not like honey is indispensable or difficult to go without. Why don't they just stop eating it??? It's not like they're addicted or anything. It's not crack or heroin for god's sake.)
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#64 Old 01-16-2009, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

There is no such thing as a vegan that eats honey. Vegans don't eat animal products. Honey is most definitely an animal product. It has never ever ever grown on trees, in the ground or on a bush.



Makes absolutely no sense so say that "individual vegans use honey".



It's like saying that all major human rights associations disallow torture many individual human rights supporters still practice it.



Or that all major vegetarian socities disallow rabbit meat, but many individual vegetarians still eat it.



Honey is not vegan. So how can a vegan eat honey????



(I really do not get it why some wannabe-vegans absolutely try and worm and twist their way around persuading themselves that it's okay to eat honey. I mean, it's not like honey is indispensable or difficult to go without. Why don't they just stop eating it??? It's not like they're addicted or anything. It's not crack or heroin for god's sake.)



I'm still fairly new to the vegetarian community, but I do know that this debate about honey has been around for a long time, so I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind. I do not call myself a vegan but I do know of others who do and still include honey but no other animal products.



I don't believe that honey is in the same league as meat, dairy and eggs. A person can get cholesterol from meat, dairy and eggs, but not from honey. I also disagree with the analogy that some people make about honey being the same as milk from a cow. A cow can eat anything and still produce milk. But a bee specifically needs nectar to produce honey. If you want to get technical about it, honey is really a plant/animal hybrid. It comes from the nectar of flowers and is processed by the bee's body. It doesn't come from the bee's body like milk from a cow.



Honey also has healing properties that are useful to humans and the bees make much more honey than they need.



Why do people eat honey? Because it tastes good. I love having honey in my tea. It blends in better than any other sweetener. While avoiding honey itself might be easy, avoiding prepared products where honey is one of the ingredients is not since there are so many of them. I also find that honey costs less than real maple syrup; which is very expensive.



As I said, I'm not trying to change people's mind since this debate has been around for a long time. Just my two cents worth.
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#65 Old 01-16-2009, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jemdude View Post

Because it tastes good.

The best excuse ever!!

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#66 Old 01-16-2009, 09:49 AM
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Why do people eat honey? Because it tastes good. I love having honey in my tea. It blends in better than any other sweetener. While avoiding honey itself might be easy, avoiding prepared products where honey is one of the ingredients is not since there are so many of them. I also find that honey costs less than real maple syrup; which is very expensive.



You do realize that people give exactly the same reasons for continuing to eat dairy, eggs, beef, pork, chicken, etc. etc., right? Do you think "it tastes good" is a valid reason to eat, say, veal? You say that honey is healthy, but lots of animal products have proven health benefits. Is that an acceptable reason to eat lean meats and cottage cheese?



ETA I'm not sure that sensory descriptions of how much you love an animal product are really appropriate for the vegan forum.
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#67 Old 01-16-2009, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by beatricious View Post

You do realize that people give exactly the same reasons for continuing to eat dairy, eggs, beef, pork, chicken, etc. etc., right? Do you think "it tastes good" is a valid reason to eat, say, veal? You say that honey is healthy, but lots of animal products have proven health benefits. Is that an acceptable reason to eat lean meats and cottage cheese?



ETA I'm not sure that sensory descriptions of how much you love an animal product are really appropriate for the vegan forum.



All that I was doing was answering a question.



And as the link in the original post says, vegans depend a lot on bees to pollinate many of the vegetables that you eat.
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#68 Old 01-16-2009, 12:34 PM
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All that I was doing was answering a question.



And as the link in the original post says, vegans depend a lot on bees to pollinate many of the vegetables that you eat.



That's a pretty good way of side-stepping the question. Do you think "it tastes good and is healthy" is a valid reason to continue eating any animal product? If not, why is it a valid reason to continue eating honey? "You have to depend on bees anyway, so why not eat honey as well?" is identical to the omni excuse "You have to kill some animals (e.g. rabbits who are killed by harvesting machinery), so you may as well eat meat".
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#69 Old 01-16-2009, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jemdude View Post

... If you want to get technical about it, honey is really a plant/animal hybrid. It comes from the nectar of flowers and is processed by the bee's body...

For whom? For people who like it in their tea?



Honey is "processed" by bees in order to produce food for their larvae, who cannot go out and eat nectar for themselves. Much like a vegan human woman "processes" the plants she eats into breast milk to feed her infant, who cannot eat plants foods himself, or like cows who "process" grass into milk for their calves, who cannot eat grass. Who cares if the organs used are different. The purpose of the end product is for the feeding of the young.

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#70 Old 01-16-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by beatricious View Post

That's a pretty good way of side-stepping the question. Do you think "it tastes good and is healthy" is a valid reason to continue eating any animal product? If not, why is it a valid reason to continue eating honey? "You have to depend on bees anyway, so why not eat honey as well?" is identical to the omni excuse "You have to kill some animals (e.g. rabbits who are killed by harvesting machinery), so you may as well eat meat".

Well spoken, if I may say so.

I no longer post here after VB was sold in 2012. (See my profile page for details.)
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#71 Old 01-16-2009, 04:15 PM
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Though I do eat honey, I concur honey is not a vegan product. Then again, I don't consider myself a vegan or even a vegetarian. I just think I'm a rockin cool eater of plant life and deliciousness



Bigger things to fret about.



For those of you that do enjoy honey, you really got to try agave nectar. I love honey, but agave is just as good and sometimes preferred. I prefer it in my tea honestly. I use honey in various breads and sauces still, but agave is definitely rockin.



All the same, very good article that was posted.
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#72 Old 01-16-2009, 04:41 PM
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I honestly don't understand this debate. Of course honey's not vegan. It's an animal product. That doesn't mean that people who choose to eat it are bad, sinful, animal haters. They're just not vegan.



(I'm a non-vegan occasional honey-eater, BTW)
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#73 Old 01-17-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

For whom? For people who like it in their tea?



Honey is "processed" by bees in order to produce food for their larvae, who cannot go out and eat nectar for themselves. Much like a vegan human woman "processes" the plants she eats into breast milk to feed her infant, who cannot eat plants foods himself, or like cows who "process" grass into milk for their calves, who cannot eat grass. Who cares if the organs used are different. The purpose of the end product is for the feeding of the young.



Well, I guess you just care more about bees than I do.



This controversy about honey has been around long before I entered into the scene and will continue to be around long after I'm gone. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
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#74 Old 01-17-2009, 09:12 AM
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I wonder if all the people debating the veganness of honey have themselves anything to do with veganism (or "veganism-minus-the-honey"). If not, it seems weird to be so interested in it.

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#75 Old 01-17-2009, 09:13 AM
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Well, I guess you just care more about bees than I do.



Why do all the arguments for honey sound so suspiciously like the ones for meat eating?
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#76 Old 01-17-2009, 11:11 AM
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Well, I guess you just care more about bees than I do.

Actually I do. I am quite fond of bees. But I am quite fond of all lifeforms.



However, a person doesn't have to be fond of someone to feel obliged to respect them, and especially to want to avoid stealing from them. I hate to add to the notion that vegans are people haters, but I confess that humans are my least favorite animal.



There, I said it.



This doesn't mean I think its okay to steal from them. Especially the food they need to feed their children with.

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#77 Old 01-17-2009, 11:15 AM
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But I am quite fond of all lifeforms.

Even this one?

"and I stand

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#78 Old 01-17-2009, 11:17 AM
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Of course!

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#79 Old 01-17-2009, 11:21 AM
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Actually I do. I am quite fond of bees. But I am quite fond of all lifeforms.



However, a person doesn't have to be fond of someone to feel obliged to respect them, and especially to want to avoid stealing from them. I hate to add to the notion that vegans are people haters, but I confess that humans are my least favorite animal.



There, I said it.



This doesn't mean I think its okay to steal from them. Especially the food they need to feed their children with.



This is one of the reasons why I'm not vegan. A significant number of them (but not all of them) seem to care more about animals than people.



Bees make much more honey than they will ever need. And while I do care for animals, i just don't see insects on the same level as mammals, birds, etc. If a fly is in my room, I'm not going to have any qualms about killing it.
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#80 Old 01-17-2009, 11:28 AM
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This is one of the reasons why I'm not vegan.

Then why the **** are you so interested in whether honey is vegan? Do you see vegans entering some Adventist discussion and offering their expert opinions on some scriptural question? Maybe focus a little bit more on your own issues.



And this is the vegan support forum. Does expressing your silly stereotype of vegans as misanthropes constitute support to you?

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#81 Old 01-17-2009, 11:31 AM
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This is one of the reasons why I'm not vegan. A significant number of them (but not all of them) seem to care more about animals than people.

Now you are reading way too much into what I said. Not liking someone does not equate with not caring about them. I don't trample all over people's rights just because they are not my favorite animal. I care about the rights of all sentient beings, regardless of how I feel about them on a personal level.

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#82 Old 01-17-2009, 11:34 AM
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Then why the **** are you so interested in whether honey is vegan? Do you see vegans entering some Adventist discussion and offering their expert opinions on some scriptural question? Maybe focus a little bit more on your own issues.



And this is the vegan support forum. Does expressing your silly stereotype of vegans as misanthropes constitute support to you?



Perhaps you are right. Obviously, this is one section of the board that I should not post in very often, if at all.



As I said before, this controversy has been around long before me and will continue to go on after me. So I'll take my leave of this thread and let the controversy continue.
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#83 Old 01-17-2009, 11:36 AM
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Perhaps you are right. Obviously, this is one section of the board that I should not post in very often, if at all.

I think it's fine to challenge and question the definitions and values of veganism now and then, I just found it weird how many non-vegans (not just you) are interested in the relation between honey and veganism.



Anyway, got a bit too defensive there, mea culpa.

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#84 Old 01-18-2009, 02:14 PM
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For whom? For people who like it in their tea?



Honey is "processed" by bees in order to produce food for their larvae, who cannot go out and eat nectar for themselves. Much like a vegan human woman "processes" the plants she eats into breast milk to feed her infant, who cannot eat plants foods himself, or like cows who "process" grass into milk for their calves, who cannot eat grass. Who cares if the organs used are different. The purpose of the end product is for the feeding of the young.



You know what... after reading many honey debates I decided that I didn't want to eat honey because I felt that I was just not understanding the issue fully and don't want to eat honey so that I am not contributing to an animal's suffering (I start my vegan life in 2 weeks that is) whether it makes sense in my head or not.



But this is the first time I have read someone's explanation of why we shouldn't eat honey and it really made sense to me!!! I now 'get it' as it were and feel that when I start my vegan life I will be able to avoid honey and understand why I am doing it.... which in the long run will make it easier to avoid as well as helping me justify my decision to myself and to others should they ever question my veganism - which I'm sure they will.



Thanks for that!!!
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#85 Old 01-18-2009, 03:37 PM
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Aw, you're welcome!

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#86 Old 01-19-2009, 10:20 AM
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That article defending honey as "vegan" did raise a good point -- honey is usually the factor that leads most omnivores to deem veganism as silliness. However, I think the author overlooked the aim of veganism in regards to the avoidance of honey. This action does not imply that vegans seek to achieve perfection as the author seems to suggest, but rather that vegans strive to limit contributions to exploitation and suffering as much as possible. I realize that I am responsible for the deaths of insects whenever I simply walk through grass, but this fact does not justify eating honey.



I personally see the rejection of meat, dairy, and eggs as a bit more imperative than the rejection of honey, but as I find little to no justification for eating honey, and since the same principles which concern the treatment of other forms of life can apply to the treatment of bees, I will continue to abstain.
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#87 Old 01-19-2009, 11:14 PM
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All that I was doing was answering a question.



And as the link in the original post says, vegans depend a lot on bees to pollinate many of the vegetables that you eat.



Fruits need pollinating, not so much vegetables.



We also 'rely' on cows and/or petroleum products to fertilize fields and automobiles to transport produce to our areas. That doesn't mean that's the only way to do things.



Honey bees are not the only pollinators. There are many many native pollinators (no matter where you live) who would do a fine job pollinating our foods if we would change our agricultural practices away from monocropping and instead practiced biodiversity and encouraged those pollinators. The reliance on honey bees helps to wipe out these native pollinators.
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#88 Old 01-19-2009, 11:17 PM
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I think it's fine to challenge and question the definitions and values of veganism now and then, I just found it weird how many non-vegans (not just you) are interested in the relation between honey and veganism.



I always found that strange too, and irritating. I've had people start questioning me about eating honey and how that's why they'd never be vegan and then speak with gusto about eating lamb. So why not start with the lamb on the road towards veganism? You might find the honey issue gets a little easier to understand...
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#89 Old 02-16-2009, 11:54 AM
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At a Beekeepers Assoc. meeting an Organic beekeeper spoke about Organic Beekeeping....No medications are used because most Organic Beekeepers KILL the bees at the end of the season...saves bees from the medications/chemicals and saves the Organic beekeeper loads of money....ORGANIC IS NOT ALWAYS Friendly or a smart choice.



I don't recall writing that we take the honey from the bees...heck here it is the middle of February and we still can't lift the boxes because of all the heavy honey.
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#90 Old 02-19-2009, 04:04 PM
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I am a vegetarian; I eat 90% vegan foods. I was just wondering if anyone considers honey vegan or if it's prohibited if I am going to call myself a vegan. Because I feel like if I ate vegan, I would probably still eat products with honey, because bees are insects, and they don't really pollute.



I know that insects ARE animals, so honey would be considered an animal product, which would then be not vegan, but this doesn't seem reason enough for me. I have heard things like beekeepers taking away the bees' honey and replacing it with sugar water which the bees are not used to, and this is a form of animal cruelty. However, I see this as not really a priority when it comes to the environment (which is the main reason I went veg), or other animals' wellfare like the intelligent pig.



Can anyone give me a good reason why when I am vegan to not eat honey?



Is calling yourself a vegan and still eating honey as bad as calling yourself a vegetarian and still eating fish?? (because I CANNOT STAND when people do that)
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