Obese have right to 2 airline seats, court rules - Page 7 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#181 Old 11-23-2008, 10:52 PM
Veggie Regular
 
das_nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,130
I'm so happy that most of this board will support me when my bad health decisions catch up with me.
das_nut is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#182 Old 11-24-2008, 06:05 AM
Newbie
 
thalestral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
I simply have faith in the medical establishment being the ones who are better at understanding and diagnosing medical issues. Particularly compared to an airline company o_O



Perhaps this relates more to failings of the medical community in the US then.
thalestral is offline  
#183 Old 11-24-2008, 07:12 AM
Veggie Regular
 
das_nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,130
It could relate to shopping for doctors to get the diagnosis you want.
das_nut is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#184 Old 11-24-2008, 09:06 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Veggily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by das_nut View Post

I'm so happy that most of this board will support me when my bad health decisions catch up with me.

You betcha! But what are you going to do the other 23.?? hours a day when you have to live with them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by thalestral View Post

I simply have faith in the medical establishment being the ones who are better at understanding and diagnosing medical issues. Particularly compared to an airline company o_O



Perhaps this relates more to failings of the medical community in the US then.





I have absolutely no idea why you brought up the supposed failings of the medical community in the U.S. What, exactly, are you trying to imply, and what relation does it have with this issue? Did you read the first article, or the one anonycat posted?



I am asking if you, personally, would agree with the medical establishment/community (let's say from any other country than the U.S., so we can bypass your personal feelings about the U.S. medical system) okaying a passenger for an extra seat due to his present medical condition of obesity, to the extent of not being able to fit into one seat, even if those medical doctors do not take your personal exceptions (i.e. no free seats for overeaters or former overeaters) into account? I got a very clear impression from your posts that you would not find that acceptable and are assuming that all respectable doctors would naturally see the disability of obesity the same way you do: more important than the present condition of being too large to fit in one seat is whether the condition was brought on by laziness or greed. Why do you think the doctors would have the same objections you do regarding the practical issue of very obese people needing extra space?



Regarding the ruling, we're talking about people who don't fit in the seats (aren't we?), not people who are simply fat. To add perspective, if the obese person who didnt want to/couldnt afford to buy an extra seat, didnt fit into the seat because of their present state of obesity on the day of the flight, was assigned the seat next to you and got to the plane first, would you have a problem with not getting a full seat next to them? Would you mind less if they were in part of your seat due to an unavoidable medical condition?

"Somewhere along the way, someone is going to tell you, 'There is no "I" in team.' What you should tell them is, 'Maybe not. But there is an "I" in independence, individuality and integrity." Â George Carlin
Veggily is offline  
#185 Old 11-24-2008, 09:06 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by das_nut View Post

It could relate to shopping for doctors to get the diagnosis you want.



i don't know if thats quite so easy in the UK or Canadia. or maybe we're just not that way inclined.
jeneticallymodified is offline  
#186 Old 11-24-2008, 10:54 AM
Newbie
 
thalestral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Veggily, I quite honestly have no idea what you are going on about.



My talk of medical certificates was in answer to those who felt the ruling unfair on those who were disabled through no fault of their own compared to those who were not. And to the likes of Nickel who seemed quite irate at the idea that someone like her should be given a free seat. Free seats versus paid seats, that is all. I only brought up the US medical system because you seemed so sure that they were incapable of being able to spot inherited conditions o_O



I suggest you calm down as you seem quite upset and again, I have no idea what you are going on about! Seriously, I have no bone to pick with you and I am quite confused at your posts and their tone.
thalestral is offline  
#187 Old 11-24-2008, 04:19 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Veggily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,868
you crack me up. you're the one who brought in the u.s. for no apparent reason, but can't explain why. you are the one who keeps posting about medical certificates that you assume (and proclaim) will only be allowed for people who have become obese due to a reason unrelated to over-consumption of food. but you don't give direct answers clarifying your views. i'm not upset. regarding your posts, i think flabbergasted might be the closest to a strong emotion i am feeling right now. i like how you deflect things by accusing the other person of being upset or emotional or playing games. that is a clever technique that probably works often, as it is right now. i give up on getting a straight answer from you and won't bother asking anymore.

"Somewhere along the way, someone is going to tell you, 'There is no "I" in team.' What you should tell them is, 'Maybe not. But there is an "I" in independence, individuality and integrity." Â George Carlin
Veggily is offline  
#188 Old 11-24-2008, 04:22 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Veggily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,868
oh, and, p.s. just because someone is technically obese does not mean they would qualify for a free seat due to obesity.

"Somewhere along the way, someone is going to tell you, 'There is no "I" in team.' What you should tell them is, 'Maybe not. But there is an "I" in independence, individuality and integrity." Â George Carlin
Veggily is offline  
#189 Old 11-25-2008, 05:19 AM
Veggie Regular
 
raefactor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 739
I have been obese and flown while obese (though I fit alright in the seats).



I am currently bordering on overweight with a BMI of 25. I used to be 135 for a BMI of barely 20. Medical conditions for obesity are INCREDIBLY common, probably moreso than bad eating choices. Sure, eating plays a part of it, but I think it must be a lot more rare for someone without a psychological or medical condition to get above, say 250 for an average height person. Just like it's pretty rare to see an emaciated person who doesn't have a genetic predisposition or medical problem or an eating disorder (which is really a medical condition too, if you think about it-- it's caused by brain function and neurochemicals and predisposition and all that), you also don't see many morbidly obese people just "fat" due to their eating choices. There is almost always something bigger going on.



That said, I am also medically and psychiatrically disabled and have to pay for extra accommodations everywhere, flights included. It sucks, but such is life. I don't, for instance, have to pay for the wheelchair lift on the bus, because they planned ahead and made a section for me. But I have to pay extra for housing, extra for most taxis, extra for my wheelchair at times (if it is counted as extra luggage), etc. If I have to pay for reasonable accommodations I think obese people should too.



Just make a section of slightly bigger chairs for people with a medical need, maybe in the back of the plane. People will take advantage of it? Huh. Well, people already take advantage of handicapped parking when they're not disabled (the people who brag about it-- I know better than most that some people are really sick and don't look it). People already take advantage of disabled discounts. People with strollers are allowed into the "special needs" line (and sometimes they do need it. Other times they're just lazy, according to them). Even in my dorm people KNOW there are two of us on this hall who can only use the disabled shower stall, yet the athletes and sorority girls are always using it because it's bigger. There will always be losers or just silly people taking advantage of disability accommodations they don't need, and even more people who are genuinely disabled but don't look it. Still, that doesn't mean we shouldn't provide disabled shower stalls or a special needs security line at the airport.



In a nutshell: Some of the people in this thread making sweeping generalizations deserve to be slapped. Giving obese people a free seat is unfair. However, the airlines not having a few disability/obesity accommodating seats for the same price or slightly higher is also unfair.
raefactor is offline  
#190 Old 11-27-2008, 02:27 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by holly golightly View Post

Nope. Unless the tall are given an exception too. Like the medically obese, the tall can't help being tall, but still have to pay.



Yeah, you're right actually. I agree!
GhostUser is offline  
#191 Old 11-27-2008, 02:57 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Abbey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,684
Raefactor, you mentioned something that I haven't yet seen in this thread (though I haven't read the whole thread): many people are overweight due to an eating disorder - in this case, compulsive overeating - and eating disorders are a neurological condition.



How does that fit into your argument about passengers providing proof of obesity due to a medical condition, thelestral?



I'm sorry, but if an obese person needs more space, he or she should get more space, regardless of reason.
Abbey is offline  
#192 Old 11-27-2008, 03:33 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
My opinion:

need more room? pay for it. It may not be someone's fault they need more room (being tall, medical condition that causes them to be overweight, ect), but it's not the airline's fault, either, so they shouldnt have to pay for it.
GhostUser is offline  
#193 Old 11-27-2008, 03:46 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Abbey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

My opinion:

need more room? pay for it. It may not be someone's fault they need more room (being tall, medical condition that causes them to be overweight, ect), but it's not the airline's fault, either, so they shouldnt have to pay for it.



So people in wheelchairs who need ramps should pay businesses to build them? Maybe there should be a toll charge for using the ramp, so it covers the cost of building and maintaining it?



I thought making your business accommodating to all sorts of people was supposed to be a regular cost of doing business.
Abbey is offline  
#194 Old 11-27-2008, 03:55 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Businesses have a right to do whatever they want. It might not be ethical, but they can make their business however they decide.
GhostUser is offline  
#195 Old 11-27-2008, 03:56 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Also, building a ramp is a bit different than giving a free seat. Building a ramp is a one time charge. It doesnt lose the company money every time someone uses it. An airline loses money every time someone gets a seat for free.
GhostUser is offline  
#196 Old 11-27-2008, 03:58 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Eleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

Businesses have a right to do whatever they want. It might not be ethical, but they can make their business however they decide.



This is not even remotely true, legally speaking, in the United States.
Eleven is offline  
#197 Old 11-27-2008, 03:59 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post

This is not even remotely true in a legal sense in the United States.



AFAIK businesses dont have to build a ramp or make seats a certain size.
GhostUser is offline  
#198 Old 11-27-2008, 04:02 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Eleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

AFAIK businesses dont have to build a ramp or make seats a certain size.



You are mistaken.
Eleven is offline  
#199 Old 11-27-2008, 04:06 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
-shrug- it happens. not a big deal.

If that's true, obviously my opinion is that it shouldnt be.
GhostUser is offline  
#200 Old 11-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Eleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

-shrug- it happens. not a big deal.

If that's true, obviously my opinion is that it shouldnt be.



You might find some interesting reading here.
Eleven is offline  
#201 Old 11-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Abbey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

Also, building a ramp is a bit different than giving a free seat. Building a ramp is a one time charge. It doesnt lose the company money every time someone uses it. An airline loses money every time someone gets a seat for free.



In cold climates, ramps have to be shoveled and salted every day during winter, sometimes several times a day. Cracks need to be repaired. Uneven pavement on the ramp needs to be fixed. It is definitely not a one-time charge.



I've flown a LOT, and very rarely (except for during the holidays) have I flown on a completely full flight. If the seat wasn't going to be used anyway, it doesn't lose the airline money to let an obese person take 2 seats.
Abbey is offline  
#202 Old 11-27-2008, 04:23 PM
Red
Veggie Regular
 
Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

An airline loses money every time someone gets a seat for free.



Which is why the government should stop forcing the airlines to have frequent flier programs.
Red is offline  
#203 Old 11-27-2008, 05:04 PM
Veggie Regular
 
JLRodgers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbey View Post

I've flown a LOT, and very rarely (except for during the holidays) have I flown on a completely full flight. If the seat wasn't going to be used anyway, it doesn't lose the airline money to let an obese person take 2 seats.



From shows I've seen, every pound (literally a pound) that a plane is lighter, the less fuel it uses - so they try to use lighter materials. So really, the more weight you have in passengers or luggage -- the more money it costs them for the flight. So to say it doesn't cost them money isn't entirely true (even if the value is extremely small overall) -- whether they lose money on it would require in depth calculations of the person/luggage/seat price calculations, but they do end up paying more for people that weigh more.



Of course that applies to people weighing 120lbs vs 125 or even 200 for that matter -- but as those people generally wouldn't be taking up two seats... meaning that if you had one person that weighs 350 lbs, or two people that weight 175 -- while the total weight and gas would be the same (assuming that the two has the same weight of luggage as the one person), if the 350lb person takes 2 seats, they're only getting half the money with the same amount of fuel costs.
JLRodgers is offline  
#204 Old 11-27-2008, 06:02 PM
Veggie Regular
 
das_nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLRodgers View Post

From shows I've seen, every pound (literally a pound) that a plane is lighter, the less fuel it uses - so they try to use lighter materials.



Why do fat people hate mother earth?



das_nut is offline  
#205 Old 11-27-2008, 07:16 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Abbey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLRodgers View Post

From shows I've seen, every pound (literally a pound) that a plane is lighter, the less fuel it uses - so they try to use lighter materials. So really, the more weight you have in passengers or luggage -- the more money it costs them for the flight. So to say it doesn't cost them money isn't entirely true (even if the value is extremely small overall) -- whether they lose money on it would require in depth calculations of the person/luggage/seat price calculations, but they do end up paying more for people that weigh more.



Of course that applies to people weighing 120lbs vs 125 or even 200 for that matter -- but as those people generally wouldn't be taking up two seats... meaning that if you had one person that weighs 350 lbs, or two people that weight 175 -- while the total weight and gas would be the same (assuming that the two has the same weight of luggage as the one person), if the 350lb person takes 2 seats, they're only getting half the money with the same amount of fuel costs.



You do have a point. But as you said every pound counts, so a 125lb person uses less fuel than a 130lb person, but they both pay the same ticket price. So I think we agree that the *weight* of a person shouldn't change their ticket price. Where we disagree is whether their *size* should change their ticket price. It's true that neither the 125lb nor the 130lb person would be taking up 2 seats - unless the seat next to them is *already* empty. I don't know about you, but I've stretched myself over 2 seats many times when there was an empty seat next to me on a plane. In that case, could you say that the airline is losing the price of a ticket because I'm using up 2 seats and only paying for 1?
Abbey is offline  
#206 Old 11-27-2008, 07:38 PM
Veggie Regular
 
cowgirrlup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,589
Regardless of what the airlines charge or don't charge someone for a seat, if I pay for a seat on an aircraft, then for that flight I would like to be the only person in that seat.


Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened.

cowgirrlup is offline  
#207 Old 11-27-2008, 07:42 PM
Veggie Regular
 
JLRodgers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbey View Post

You do have a point. But as you said every pound counts, so a 125lb person uses less fuel than a 130lb person, but they both pay the same ticket price. So I think we agree that the *weight* of a person shouldn't change their ticket price. Where we disagree is whether their *size* should change their ticket price. It's true that neither the 125lb nor the 130lb person would be taking up 2 seats - unless the seat next to them is *already* empty. I don't know about you, but I've stretched myself over 2 seats many times when there was an empty seat next to me on a plane. In that case, could you say that the airline is losing the price of a ticket because I'm using up 2 seats and only paying for 1?



Short answer to the question: not if it's empty anyway.



I was just thinking maybe they do everything on "average assumed weights per ticket" -- they might even alter the amount of fuel they put on based on ticket sales/etc (which since it weighs some, it costs to haul the fuel as well). So.... One person under any "assumed weight/ticket" (not sure if they do this mind you - just a thought), wouldn't affect their totals whether they take up one, two, three, or four (as the case may be) seats because the weight's the same -- so there's no extra cost to them. But if someone took up two due to size, and the plane was booked (comfort aside -- as I think seats should be bigger anyway), there could be additional costs to the airline not balanced out by the averages. Now if the plane wasn't booked.... you'd have to calculate the weight of luggage, etc (a lot of things probably) that may or may not make the airline out more money by a person taking up two seats due to size even if the seat beside them was empty.



And keep in mind this only generally applies if the plane's booked, as in didn't know some might take up more than one seat for any reason so every seat has a body, maybe some overlapping. If the seat's free anyway -- not really a problem I wouldn't think overall. There's just so many factors on the business side that determine things. And if they fuel up the plane the same no matter how many tickets are sold (other than potentially being a waste of money...), it wouldn't matter either.
JLRodgers is offline  
#208 Old 11-28-2008, 10:14 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Digger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,897
As a clinically obese person myself I would like to weigh-in on this issue (pun intended):



1. I believe that folks should be responsible for paying their own way for the resources they consume on this planet. I don't expect you to buy me an extra seat on an airplane, any more than I would expect you to pay for the extra food I eat or extra gasoline my car uses to haul my big butt around.



2. It won't be the airline who absorbs the cost of these free seats, it is you my fellow passengers, and I think that is unfair of me to ask.



3. Trying to determine whether someone is obese due to medical reasons or lifestyle choices is totally irrelevant to me. We all pay for our own disabilities in life and sometimes life just ain't fair. It may or may not be my own fault that I am obese but one thing is certain: it definitely isn't your fault.



4. As I stated in a previous post, disabled persons are often required to purchase extra accomodations for medical equipment, service animals, nurses, or traveling companions. I shouldn't expect preferential treatment because I am obese.



5. This is entirely anecdotal so please accept it as such, but somehow I doubt that the current epidemic of obesity in the U.S. and other countries is being caused entirely by some sudden onslaught of disease. We just plain eat too much, and now that we are finding there's a price to pay for that, suddenly we want someone else to pay.



6. I'll be the first to admit that I am obese because I eat too much and exercise too little, and the majority (not all) of the obese people I know personally are in the same boat. There needs to be some personal accountability. Giving me a free extra seat on a plane is like telling me: "It's okay to be fat, we'll pay your way". I've made poor lifestyle choices in the past and I should be expected to pay for that. Nobody else should.



Thanks for letting me share my opinion.



Dig
Digger is offline  
#209 Old 11-28-2008, 12:22 PM
Newbie
 
thalestral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Regarding eating disorders, I think the medical community would be hard pushed to see that as anything other than the medical problem that it is. Again, I can only ask whether there is a lack of trust in the medical community in the US that is not present in (some) other countries? I know someone alluded to that in a comment.



As long as anyone with a non-self inflicted and doctor agreed ailment can get a free seat, and as long as anyone who does not medically (ruled by a doctor) need but wants an extra seat can pay for one... everyone should be happy?
thalestral is offline  
#210 Old 11-28-2008, 02:43 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Abbey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger View Post

As a clinically obese person myself I would like to weigh-in on this issue (pun intended):



1. I believe that folks should be responsible for paying their own way for the resources they consume on this planet. I don't expect you to buy me an extra seat on an airplane, any more than I would expect you to pay for the extra food I eat or extra gasoline my car uses to haul my big butt around.



2. It won't be the airline who absorbs the cost of these free seats, it is you my fellow passengers, and I think that is unfair of me to ask.



3. Trying to determine whether someone is obese due to medical reasons or lifestyle choices is totally irrelevant to me. We all pay for our own disabilities in life and sometimes life just ain't fair. It may or may not be my own fault that I am obese but one thing is certain: it definitely isn't your fault.



4. As I stated in a previous post, disabled persons are often required to purchase extra accomodations for medical equipment, service animals, nurses, or traveling companions. I shouldn't expect preferential treatment because I am obese.



5. This is entirely anecdotal so please accept it as such, but somehow I doubt that the current epidemic of obesity in the U.S. and other countries is being caused entirely by some sudden onslaught of disease. We just plain eat too much, and now that we are finding there's a price to pay for that, suddenly we want someone else to pay.



6. I'll be the first to admit that I am obese because I eat too much and exercise too little, and the majority (not all) of the obese people I know personally are in the same boat. There needs to be some personal accountability. Giving me a free extra seat on a plane is like telling me: "It's okay to be fat, we'll pay your way". I've made poor lifestyle choices in the past and I should be expected to pay for that. Nobody else should.

So I take it you don't have home insurance, car insurance or medical insurance? Because if you ever need your insurance to cover any damage or medical costs, you can almost guarantee that you'll need more money back from your insurance company than you ever contributed in premiums. And where does that money come from? Other people's premiums. That means other people are absorbing the costs of your medical bills or home/car repair.



I'd like to see how many people here who disagree with the ruling also disagree with the concept of universal health care. Because if you have a disability or other medical problem in a country with universal health care, even if the problem is directly your own fault, then you get free medical treatment, at the cost of taxpayers. So maybe the fact that this ruling passed in Canada, a country with universal health care, makes sense because it's in accordance with their existing practices.



However, it should be noted that Southwest Airlines has had the same policy for a long time: it gives a free seat to passengers to big to lower their armrest.
Abbey is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off