Obese have right to 2 airline seats, court rules - Page 5 - VeggieBoards
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#121 Old 11-22-2008, 01:42 AM
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Maybe the seats on US planes are smaller but on UK planes bigger people can fit into them. I used to be obese myself a few years ago and I travelled on a plane in an economy seat at that size a few times and I fit into the seat. If I had been much bigger and needed two seats I think I should have had to pay for an extra seat or paid for a bigger seat in first class or lost weight before the flight or just not travelled by plane. I don't really see why I should have received an extra seat for free and I actually don't think I would have felt comfortable accepting a free seat, it doesn't seem fair to me.



I have noticed that theatre seats are very small though, I sat next to a very tall man and his legs were practically folded up into my lap as he had nowhere to put them so I can see that probably some seating has not been enlarged to deal with the expanding size of the population in the UK.
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#122 Old 11-22-2008, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

people with lots of medical condiitions could perhaps make lifestyle or attitude changes to dramatically improve their circumstances, but don't. i think the basic underlying issue is that as a society we assign judgement and deem some people worthy of support, or responsible for their own circumstances, and others not, make some into victims and some into social pariahs- and base how we treat them on that, not on how we'd like to be treated by others if we were in their place.



I think that is exactly why such decisions should be left to the medical establishment and not rest solely on one factor, ie weight.





Out of interest, do heavier people cost the airline more in fuel consumption? I'm wondering if petite people should technically pay less for their seat, while heavier people should pay more.





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Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Then I apologise. If I've been out of line then I am sorry. I just honestly don't understand why people deliberately seek out debates that will upset them. Quite seriously, fat people are not the "only people that can be picked on". Not even close to it. All sorts of people are mocked... there are no free passes.



I have to agree on this sentiment. What is perceived as mocking can be simply light humour that happens to be about something you are especially sensitive to. I know that some jokes about mental illness I could perceive as being mocking when I know that is not the intention. I recognise that I am reading more than what is there and move on.



I think that over-sensitivity to certain issues ends up making mountains out of molehills and perhaps even reinforces the idea that some people are so sensitive about an issue that they cannot see it clearly and play the victim card.



Being sensitive is not a bad thing, but accusing others of unkindness because of light humour is not nice.
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#123 Old 11-22-2008, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

Geez - y'all sound like a bunch of Republicans, what with the arguing for personal responsibility and against redistribution of the cost of your tickets to accommodate others.










Well, if they decided to do shock and awe on the airlines, bomb them and kill a bunch of workers so they could get bigger seats, I might agree that they're acting like republicans...otherwise, no.

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#124 Old 11-22-2008, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

Geez - y'all sound like a bunch of Republicans, what with the arguing for personal responsibility and against redistribution of the cost of your tickets to accommodate others.





I know. It's ridiculous, huh?



We aren't collections of dollars and we shouldn't measure worth or make accomodations based on that value.
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#125 Old 11-22-2008, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

against redistribution of the cost of your tickets to accommodate others.



I would rather not pay in order to accomodate someone else. If I want a small bed, i will pay for a small bed, and not pay extra in case someone else at the same store requires a bigger bed.



Same as at a restaurant, I admit I am a small person and in no way do i mean to mock anyone else here... but if I want a small light meal and I want to pay that price then thats it, I do not want to pay a surcharge extra on top of my amount because someone else needs more calories than me...



same as if I go to the doctor for something, just because someone else needs due to medical reasons more doctoring than I do, I dont want to pay abit extra so that they get the same charge as my 20 minute appointment when their appointment was an hr and a half...



I think if you need a bigger seat, hand over the money for the bigger seat. dont expect everyone else to give a helping hand...



I mean next, pregnant women will have to pay extra because some have troubles giving birth, or couples trying to concieve will need to give money to a fertility centre that help other couples who cant concieve naturally...



as some have said on here being obese is a medical problem, BUT it is NOT MY problem so I do not feel as if I should pay the extra cost (even if it is a measly $30) in order to accomodate someone else b/c they cant sit as I can on an airplane.
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#126 Old 11-22-2008, 08:59 AM
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When I said make the seats larger, I didn't necessarly mean larger for obese people. I was talking about enough for myself, at 5'5 and 120 pounds to be comfortable. Thinking back, 2 of my 4 flights from California to Michigan and back were unusually small. I'm not asking to be able to lay down or anything, I just want to be able to shift in my seat a tad without my hips hitting the armrest. I'm not excluding obese people, I'm just saying that if a slender, short individual has a hard time sitting in economy, something is wrong.



Maybe they just need to update some of their airplanes. I don't remember who I flew with there and back. This was back in 2006. The planes back were a lot better.
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#127 Old 11-22-2008, 12:18 PM
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I am 5ft 4 and 105 pounds. I fit comfortably in economy seats. however, my dad is 6ft and about 180. he is tortured in economy seats. he will no longer fly anywhere that he can't get a first class or business class ticket. but, he can afford them while many cannot.



like I said in an earlier post, I have flown a lot and I have observed how people of average size find the economy seats uncomfortable. i think it is a matter of the seats just being too small for just about most Americans on US airlines. the very obese will still have problems with larger seats, but most of us won't if the seats were sized to at least accomodate average people comfortably.
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#128 Old 11-22-2008, 12:41 PM
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Pragmatically, it's probably best for everyone that they just give people the extra seats, or at least severely discount them, if they need extra space. If people had to pay for them, some wouldn't - and then you'd be sitting next to someone - maybe one on each side - spilling over into your seat. I really don't like being that close to most strangers. The suggestion of getting weights of passengers and then staggering them big-small-big-small etc. is just unfair to the smaller people.



I still don't see why pets tucked under the seats should cost extra.



And I think if they cater like this to a class of passengers, they need to do it for others with special weight and space needs too, in the interest of fairness.

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#129 Old 11-22-2008, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by danakscully64 View Post

When I said make the seats larger, I didn't necessarly mean larger for obese people. I was talking about enough for myself, at 5'5 and 120 pounds to be comfortable. Thinking back, 2 of my 4 flights from California to Michigan and back were unusually small. I'm not asking to be able to lay down or anything, I just want to be able to shift in my seat a tad without my hips hitting the armrest. I'm not excluding obese people, I'm just saying that if a slender, short individual has a hard time sitting in economy, something is wrong.



This is a good site for planning purposes if you fly even occasionally:



http://www.seatguru.com/



There's not much difference between most domestic carriers as far as seat width goes, but there are differences in the amount of leg room. Even a couple of extra inches can be significant:



http://www.seatguru.com/charts/domestic_economy.php
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#130 Old 11-22-2008, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahjayn1980 View Post

As for the victim card thing . . . I think there's a lot of short-sighted people in the world who like to say, "You're playing the victim!" whenever anyone expresses their feelings openly and honestly. They'd rather continue with their "light humor" that can spurn terrible tragedies. Of course, when someone passes judgement upon this person, and they self-advocate, they are not "playing the victim" then are "sticking up for themselves." It is semantics and mindset.



Saying things like, "Just because fatty has an opinion" is playing the victim card in my mind. Very much so.



I only felt inclined to mention that point because normally your posts are ones that I respect, but the tone was very much of card playing in several places. One can be compassionate and honest without playing the victim and personalising the issue, and I felt it unfair to berate Kiz for one potentially problematic behaviour while displaying another.
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#131 Old 11-22-2008, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Pragmatically, it's probably best for everyone that they just give people the extra seats, or at least severely discount them, if they need extra space. If people had to pay for them, some wouldn't - and then you'd be sitting next to someone - maybe one on each side - spilling over into your seat. I really don't like being that close to most strangers. The suggestion of getting weights of passengers and then staggering them big-small-big-small etc. is just unfair to the smaller people.



I still don't see why pets tucked under the seats should cost extra.



And I think if they cater like this to a class of passengers, they need to do it for others with special weight and space needs too, in the interest of fairness.



I wanted to stay out of this, but I have to say that post was sarcastic which I have learned doesn't translate well on the interwebs!
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#132 Old 11-22-2008, 02:10 PM
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Oops, sorry - I didn't realize that (or didn't remember, it was far back in the thread), because it's not necessarily unreasonable pragmatically...like if you're packing books in a box, you just see where you can get the best use of your space and pack them in accordingly

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#133 Old 11-22-2008, 02:12 PM
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Oops, sorry - I didn't realize that (or didn't remember, it was far back in the thread), because it's not necessarily unreasonable pragmatically...like if you're packing books in a box, you just see where you can get the best use of your space and pack them in accordingly



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#134 Old 11-22-2008, 03:00 PM
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Whereas I think its nice of you to apologize, I'd like to point out that no one - aside from yourself - ever brought up the idea of obese people feeling like they were the "only ones," subjected to discrimination, taunting, and unfair treatment. I've repeatedly said I don't think any group should be put in that position, and that there's never a reason to mock or be unkind. Perhaps especially over the do-or-die issue of airline seats, no?





Airlines seat are not do or die. They are perfectly optional. There are a tonne of people in the world who have never flown and never will.



The "only fat people" thing is not what words you have said, but the general attitude you are projecting. I mocked a court system. You gave every indication that mocking the court ruling is not OK simply because fat people were involved in the ruling.



Quote:

Maybe if you would get past the fact that obese people aren't pawns in politcal satire, but people with feeling who often are the subject of discrimination and mockery daily, you'd see why things like this are so upsetting.

Quote:

That's the only reason fat people ever express emotions other than jolliness. Let me get back to laughing so my belly can shake like a bowl full of jelly for you.

It's posts like the ones above where you are trying to turn this into a "why is everyone mocking me" thing. My posts were about a court ruling, not individual people. You've gone out of your way in this thread to make this all about discrimination and "woe is me" when it's not. This could as easily have been a thread about a gun control court ruling I disagreed with, breed specific legislation, parking fines or mail carriers dumping junk mail. If your attitude was "don't ever laugh at the courts, justice is a serious business and we must always treat it seriously" I would not have jumped to the conclusion that this was about obese people to you. Instead, I got, "please don't laugh at court cases with fat or lame people in them". Who is involved in a stupid ruling is irrelevant. It's the ruling that counts.



Mocking the court system, as far as I'm concerned, is well and fine. I'm not going to lay off courts and politicians simply because there was an overweight person involved in the case somewhere. As I've said, you've gone out of your way to try and turn a thread about a court ruling into how sad and sorry your personal life is and how discriminated against you have been. If you took things as they are and not what you are trying to force them to be then maybe you wouldn't get all upset.

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#135 Old 11-22-2008, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

This is a good site for planning purposes if you fly even occasionally:



http://www.seatguru.com/



There's not much difference between most domestic carriers as far as seat width goes, but there are differences in the amount of leg room. Even a couple of extra inches can be significant:



http://www.seatguru.com/charts/domestic_economy.php



Thanks!
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#136 Old 11-22-2008, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

If I get two seats for the price of one simply because I am fat then I'm going to start flying with pillows shoved up my clothes. Sweet!



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#137 Old 11-22-2008, 04:02 PM
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Is it a surprise that this forum may not be sympathetic towards people who don't restrict what they eat?



Most of us are vegans or vegetarians, and, by nature, restrict what we eat.



Are you a vegetarian?
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#138 Old 11-22-2008, 04:07 PM
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My, what a fun group we are.

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#139 Old 11-22-2008, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I'm sure it's impossible to nullify your argument that fat people eat everything.



I don't see where I made that argument in this thread.



Before jumping to conclusions, please reread what I said, and don't assume.
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#140 Old 11-22-2008, 06:22 PM
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Also, for the record, I'm 6'4" and around 200 lbs, give or take a few.



I've fit into airline seats before.
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#141 Old 11-22-2008, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahjayn1980 View Post

I cannot believe the insensitivity of people on this thread. It's sickening. If someone said, "I'm going to walk with a limp so I can get a handicapped spot," I would imagine that a lot of you would think that was pretty disgusting. How is this different?





In my opinion it isn't really much different.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Oh for God's sake, cut the melodrama. All sorts of people are mocked every day, for all sorts of things, on all sorts of message boards. What makes fat people different?





People are mocked for all sorts of things it's true, but I think you have to be mindful when you make a joke about something that is about any group of people who it's already well known suffer prejudice in society because you are guaranteed it will cause some kind of offense......which is fair enough in my mind.







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Originally Posted by thalestral View Post

Saying things like, "Just because fatty has an opinion" is playing the victim card in my mind. Very much so.



I only felt inclined to mention that point because normally your posts are ones that I respect, but the tone was very much of card playing in several places. One can be compassionate and honest without playing the victim and personalising the issue, and I felt it unfair to berate Kiz for one potentially problematic behaviour while displaying another.







While it's true that people choose to be offended by something, as soon as they do show that offense has been taken, IMO the respectful thing to do is to be big about it and acknowledge and accept that they have been offended, and don't try to belittle them further or negate their feelings by telling them that they're playing the victim card, because that really does show insensitivity.







.
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#142 Old 11-23-2008, 01:26 AM
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I agree with those who say everyone for them self.



I don't want to have to help out any one else, just because they have some lame medical condition. Why should I, for example, pay raised prices that go to a wheelchair ramp? I am perfectly capable of using the stairs!



If those mobility-challenged people want to get into the same building as me, they can hoist their butts out of their chair and drag themselves up the steps. Or why don't they just pay someone to pick them up and carry them? Why should I have to give anything for something I, myself, would not benefit from?!? Everyone should provide for their own damn needs.
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#143 Old 11-23-2008, 01:38 AM
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Many in this thread keep asserting that the airline should not have to provide an extra seat, because it will cost them.



I am wondering if you all think that little elves come in the night and build ramps for those in wheelchairs? Do you think that businesses render software for the seeing impaired with pixie dust? There are many accommodations that must be made to meet the special needs of employees and customers/patients. These things always cost the business owner. Should all of the laws that ordain accessibility be done away with, or should only the humans that meet your own qualifications be accommodated?



Really, I'm just curious.



I am not arguing either side. I just do not see any validity in this particular argument against the ruling.
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#144 Old 11-23-2008, 01:48 AM
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And just for the sake of clarification, since many are arguing against a straw man, if you look beyond that short, one-dimensional article you will discover that much has been left out. (Could it be that a reporter used a hyperbolic headline and exclusion of facts to exploit cultural biases, incite controversy, & bring in more readers/traffic? Nah, can't be.)



Here is a broader picture.

Quote:
Three of the country's major airlines are finally being forced - after a six-year-legal battle - to make additional seats available at no charge to disabled or obese passengers who need the extra room.... The agency issued an order last January requiring the companies to adopt a policy of "one person, one fare."



That would mean, for example, that a disabled person who needs additional room for a wheelchair or stretcher, or an obese person who needs an additional seat, couldn't be charged extra.



It would also mean that, if a disabled person has to be accompanied by an attendant, the attendant would ride for free.



So who here still takes issue?

Either tell me that all those that are disabled can suck it... or tell me why it was okay to tell the obese to suck it but you suddenly don't have much to say now.



Quote:
Joanne Neubauer of Victoria, one of two disabled people whose complaints sparked the case, said the news Thursday made her feel like "an equal citizen in this country."



"I'm pretty happy," said Neubauer, who suffers from rheumatoid arthritis and uses a motorized wheelchair. "I'm glad that they saw the wisdom, and justice prevailed."



The other original plaintiff, Eric Norman of Gander, N.L., suffered from a crippling spinal tumour that required frequent flights to Toronto for medical treatment. He has died since the legal proceedings were launched in 2002.



Quote:
Marc Comeau of the Canadian Transportation Agency said it's conceivable that not everyone who claims to be disabled will qualify for free seats. Obesity, for example, has been deemed a disability for legal purpose in some cases but not in all... Bus, train and ferry companies have long made arrangements for free extra seats, but the airline industry had argued it would lose too much money by doing the same.



The transportation agency rejected claims that providing extra seats would impose an "undue hardship" on airlines, saying they can afford the financial burden. (Anonycat says, "Damn straight".)



The agency estimated the cost to Air Canada at about $7 million a year and to WestJet at about $1.5 million a year. That amounts to about 77 cents a ticket for Air Canada and 44 cents for WestJet.



To put it another way, the agency said the cost would be 0.09 per cent of Air Canada's annual passenger revenue and 0.16 per cent of WestJet's revenue.



So...

If the airlines did decide to regain the lost revenue by upping the cost of your ticket, is your 77 cents more important to you than easing one of the many struggles a disabled person must endure and fight through everyday of their life?

Really?



Who cares, cause you are healthy and you've got your seat, right?
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#145 Old 11-23-2008, 02:00 AM
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I don't see where that figures against those who are saying it should be up to the medical establishment to determine who has a medical need for an extra free seat.



No one on this thread that I have seen has said genuinely disabled people should not be eligible for extra free space that they require. The grey area is between those who (in this case) are obese through no fault of their own, and who are obese for a non-medical reason.
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#146 Old 11-23-2008, 02:03 AM
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I don't see where that figures against those who are saying it should be up to the medical establishment to determine who has a medical need for an extra free seat.



No one on this thread that I have seen has said genuinely disabled people should not be eligible for extra free space that they require. The grey area is between those who (in this case) are obese through no fault of their own, and who are obese for a non-medical reason.



Obesity IS a "medical condition", regardless of why or how the obesity occurred.

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#147 Old 11-23-2008, 02:07 AM
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As discussed in this thread though we are referring to those who have a genetic or otherwise unavoidable condition that has caused the obesity. It seems the majority of posters are against the ruling as it stands (from reading the posts).
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#148 Old 11-23-2008, 02:45 AM
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As discussed in this thread though we are referring to those who have a genetic or otherwise unavoidable condition that has caused the obesity. It seems the majority of posters are against the ruling as it stands (from reading the posts).



Are you saying that the airlines should check potential obese passengers' past eating habits, rather than judge their eligibility by their present medical condition?



Also, regarding a comment you made a few pages back, I am curious about why you have an objection to someone using the "victim card." If you are a victim, why can't you use your card? I don't understand. Doesn't your membership card mean that you can share a perspective that non-victims may not understand? Seems to me that telling a victim he can't use his card is telling them you are not interested in their perspective. Do you say the same sort of thing to other types of victims when they "whine" about being marginalized?

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#149 Old 11-23-2008, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by thalestral View Post

I don't see where that figures against those who are saying it should be up to the medical establishment to determine who has a medical need for an extra free seat.



No one on this thread that I have seen has said genuinely disabled people should not be eligible for extra free space that they require. The grey area is between those who (in this case) are obese through no fault of their own, and who are obese for a non-medical reason.



I don't see the point in distinguishing between the two.

If someone with emphysema needs oxygen, does it matter if they got it from smoking? If someone is blind, do we deny them a guide because they got drunk and stepped out in front of a car? Should someone with AIDS be denied their medications or someone with cancer be denied a seat closer to the restroom, if it can be determined that their lifestyle or some choice along the way attributed to their condition? Where would you draw the line?



I just don't see the validity in this argument.



And again...



Quote:
Both carriers also said they will have to develop detailed eligibility rules about precisely what kind of disabilities qualify for free seats and train their staffs on the subject.



Marc Comeau of the Canadian Transportation Agency said it's conceivable that not everyone who claims to be disabled will qualify for free seats. Obesity, for example, has been deemed a disability for legal purpose in some cases but not in all.

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#150 Old 11-23-2008, 02:54 AM
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(Could it be that a reporter used a hyperbolic headline and exclusion of facts to exploit cultural biases, incite controversy, & bring in more readers/traffic?



Here is a broader picture.





Thank you for posting that. The original article, with its convenient omissions, seems downright irresponsible by comparison.



To the OP: I also don't understand why we have to pay to bring an animal in the cabin in a carrier stashed under the seat. That has never made sense to me.

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