Is it selfish to want a pup, rather than adopting a dog in need of a home? - Page 5 - VeggieBoards
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#121 Old 11-23-2008, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

After all even rescues these days see no problems shipping dogs around the world to fill a void in another area, what makes their manipulation, ordering and purchasing any different? Nothing .



I meant manipulating as in breeding for qualities, not manipulating as in "handling and sending to another area to be adopted," if that's what you were thinking.



There's no difference between making new dogs and selling them vs. having some rescue dogs that someone will adopt in another area and sending them there to be adopted? Really? Isn't one scenario actually cutting into the overpopulation problem? That's kind of been the point of this thread.

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#122 Old 11-23-2008, 01:07 AM
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My parents bred dogs and I can certainly say they did not look upon their dogs as "things".

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#123 Old 11-23-2008, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

I meant manipulating as in breeding for qualities, not manipulating as in "handling and sending to another area to be adopted," if that's what you were thinking.



There's no difference between making new dogs and selling them vs. having some rescue dogs that someone will adopt in another area and sending them there to be adopted? Really? Isn't one scenario actually cutting into the overpopulation problem? That's kind of been the point of this thread.

:LOL: you really think the people that are brokering rescue dogs around the world are cutting into the over population problem.



that's pretty funny actually.



and again you fail to grasp the very simple concept that people buying from responsible breeders are not looking for a pound puppy. Until you can grasp the difference it's a moot point.



Since in your mind dogs should not be owned by humans and some day you hope to see that event and I on the other hand have no problem with having dogs in my world, we will never agree on this.
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#124 Old 11-23-2008, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

My parents bred dogs and I can certainly say they did not look upon their dogs as "things".

your just fooling yourself Kiz, all breeders see dogs as things ment for their personal piggy bank.
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#125 Old 11-23-2008, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

What bearing does it have on this conversation? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.



One of the difference you fail to grasp... not looking for a pound puppy. They are looking for a specific type of dog with proven traits.



You don't think rescues sell them?...



As I said, it had to do with your particular condemnation in this thread and how it was stated, which struck me the wrong way, given that I don't see that there's a single value you share with them anyway.



I'm not failing to grasp anything. They're putting more dogs out into a world when millions are killed for lack of homes. It is not true that those dogs never end up with all the other unwanted dogs. Do you know how many purebreds are at pounds? And so what if people had to settle for a regular dog to care for, rather than a dog that they HOPE will have a certain traits. The best bred dog may still have temperament or other issues. What will people do then, since they expected a living being to be made-to-order? Maybe dogs exist for their own reasons, in their own right, and not how we can use them, show them, etc.



Maybe the people who are specially ordering these dogs can spend some time killing dogs at shelters, and they can learn that their dog is not so very much more special than the millions of good dogs who are getting killed.



Rescues generally aren't in the business of profitting from them.

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#126 Old 11-23-2008, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

Since in your mind dogs should not be owned by humans and some day you hope to see that event and I on the other hand have no problem with having dogs in my world, we will never agree on this.



domestic dogs obviously need to be cared for by people.



Here: maybe hold off all the breeding until there are, say, "only" 1 million dogs getting killed every year because there aren't enough homes. How about that?



What we will never agree on is that I think it's unethical to keep dumping more dogs out into the world while there are millions getting gassed, shot, hung, poisoned, etc. because they don't have homes.

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#127 Old 11-23-2008, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

domestic dogs obviously need to be cared for by people.



Here: maybe hold off all the breeding until there are, say, "only" 1 million dogs getting killed every year because there aren't enough homes. How about that?



What we will never agree on is that I think it's unethical to keep dumping more dogs out into the world while there are millions getting gassed, shot, hung, poisoned, etc. because they don't have homes.

tell ya what, you get the puppy mills, the bybers and the pet stores to stop producing puppies and then we will discuss responsible breeding.
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#128 Old 11-23-2008, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

As I said, it had to do with your particular condemnation in this thread and how it was stated, which struck me the wrong way, given that I don't see that there's a single value you share with them anyway.



I'm not failing to grasp anything. They're putting more dogs out into a world when millions are killed for lack of homes. It is not true that those dogs never end up with all the other unwanted dogs. Do you know how many purebreds are at pounds? And so what if people had to settle for a regular dog to care for, rather than a dog that they HOPE will have a certain traits. The best bred dog may still have temperament or other issues. What will people do then, since they expected a living being to be made-to-order? Maybe dogs exist for their own reasons, in their own right, and not how we can use them, show them, etc.



Maybe the people who are specially ordering these dogs can spend some time killing dogs at shelters, and they can learn that their dog is not so very much more special than the millions of good dogs who are getting killed.



Rescues generally aren't in the business of profitting from them.



well whether you think I ever agreed with PETA or not really has no bearing on how much sleep I will get tonight.... or tomorrow night..... etc. Since you think you know what my values are, why bother asking, you think you know a lot about me



and not all purebreed dogs come from responsible breeders.



actually I would be more inclinded to have the person dropping the dog off at the shelter taken to the back room with the dog and have them kill it.



I don't disagree generally speaking rescues arent in the business of profitting, but the times they are a changing aren't they.
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#129 Old 11-23-2008, 02:03 AM
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I don't think portraying yourself as the only one knowledgeable (or caring!) about an issue is a very civil way of holding a discussion.



This issue comes up every single time anyone dares mention getting a rescue dog on this forum, really the Heap is a far better place for this as I think the OP's question was more than answered a long time ago.
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#130 Old 11-23-2008, 02:08 AM
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I don't think portraying yourself as the only one knowledgeable (or caring!) about an issue is a very civil way of holding a discussion.



This issue comes up every single time anyone dares mention getting a rescue dog on this forum, really the Heap is a far better place for this as I think the OP's question was more than answered a long time ago.

that's what you are choosing to read into my posts. I don't think harping the same mantra over and over and over again is a way to have a civil conversation either.



Then again I didn't think 3 adult woman picking on a teenager and trying to lay some guilt trip on her for some imagined insult was very civil either.
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#131 Old 11-23-2008, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

I meant manipulating as in breeding for qualities, not manipulating as in "handling and sending to another area to be adopted," if that's what you were thinking.



.



actually i did miss understand this earlier, but then again I never claimed people that were trying to create new designer breeds such as labadoo's were what I would consider responsible breeders..... that's just something you keep thinking I am talking about.



Like I said earlier, you get the bybers, the millers, and the pet stores to stop mass producing puppies and then we can tackel what constitutes responsible breeding.
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#132 Old 11-23-2008, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

that's what you are choosing to read into my posts.



I'm not sure where your guilt lies but I wasn't talking about you.
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#133 Old 11-23-2008, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post








When I got my rottie, I wanted a working German bred rottie. If there wasn't a working German bred rottie available then I wouldn't have got a another dog because of it. I have many rescue dogs and I have many foster dogs, the addition of a the rott didn't change the the numbers I took in. Good breeders make up less than 1% of breeders the number of owners they 'take' from shelter dogs is insignificant.



This reminds me of something I've heard before: I hear people say all the time that going vegetarian WON'T make a difference that ONE person going veg is insignificant. If you don't believe that is true how can you believe your statement to be true? :rollseyes:
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#134 Old 11-23-2008, 06:43 AM
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^^^

That's my main reason for touting shelters over even "good" breeders. May not make a giant impact over all but it sure makes an impact to that one dog.

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#135 Old 11-23-2008, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

please that is such a crock of dog poop it's disgusting. 4 million dogs die every yr because of ignorance, back yard breeders and puppy mills.



PETA has sunk to a new low in my book.



:rollseyes:



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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

They die because of overpopulation, which breeders of all kinds contribute to.



Breeders also contribute to the idea of dogs as things to be manipulated, ordered, and purchased - while so many millions of "good" ones are killed for lack of homes.



+1



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickle00 View Post

This reminds me of something I've heard before: I hear people say all the time that going vegetarian WON'T make a difference that ONE person going veg is insignificant. If you don't believe that is true how can you believe your statement to be true? :rollseyes:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

^^^

That's my main reason for touting shelters over even "good" breeders. May not make a giant impact over all but it sure makes an impact to that one dog.



That's EXACTLY what I was about to post, Nickle and Kiz.



It's like the Starfish story.
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#136 Old 11-23-2008, 09:57 AM
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your just fooling yourself Kiz, all breeders see dogs as things ment for their personal piggy bank.



erm, not all breeders do. My mum and I used to breed dogs. Im ashamed of it, with all the overpopulation, but I certainly NEVER thought of Rosie as a thing meant for money. She is one of my best friends and a part of the family. we all love her very much.



we bred from her to get money, yes, because my parents have always said that if an animal can make money in a way that doesnt hurt it (Rosie had had two phantom pregnancies, so we knew she wanted babies) then it is stupid not too. I dont agree with this, even then I thought that selling my dogs children to buy a new kitchen table was sad, but that was not why we got my dog.



we chose the stud dog very carefully to make sure the puppies would be healthy. Both parents had good bloodlines, so we were turning buyers away and we vetted potential owners very, very carefully. One puppy was very ill and lost weight on rosies milk, and while most breeders would have left him to die, I hand reared him.



the people who bought rosies pups would not have gone to a shelter as they wanted border terrier puppies of known bloodlines and pedigree, so we were not denying any shelter dogs a home.



I know breedings wrong, but I dont like that comment at all. You cant say all breeders just want money. A lot of people breed because they love dogs, and want to support rare or favourite breeds. All dog breeding books will say, a responsible breeder will breed because they love dogs not for money. If you want money go get another job because dog breeding is expensive and time consuming if done properly. You really dont make much money at all, and it is a lot of work. My dad even said himself that he earns more in a day at work that we got from 6 puppies if you count all the supplements, special food, pens, baskets, vets bills, books and formula milk.
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#137 Old 11-23-2008, 10:13 AM
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You guys keep saying people who go to breeders don't want a rescue dog, so you weren't taking away a home from them? Many people who go to breeders WOULD rescue a dog if the breeders weren't around.
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#138 Old 11-23-2008, 10:13 AM
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Also, I never read anything into GP posts that wasn't there.
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#139 Old 11-23-2008, 10:55 AM
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has anyone mentioned breed specific rescue groups? if you're set on a certain breed, instead of going to a breeder, find a rescue group.



i.e. greyhounds - i think most of the ones in rescues come from a racing background.
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#140 Old 11-23-2008, 11:01 AM
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has anyone mentioned breed specific rescue groups? if you're set on a certain breed, instead of going to a breeder, find a rescue group.



i.e. greyhounds - i think most of the ones in rescues come from a racing background.



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#141 Old 11-23-2008, 11:07 AM
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has anyone mentioned breed specific rescue groups? if you're set on a certain breed, instead of going to a breeder, find a rescue group.



i.e. greyhounds - i think most of the ones in rescues come from a racing background.



+2. I want to adopt a boston terrier from a BT rescue. Part of me would still feel guilty because I'd rather go to a kill-shelter.
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#142 Old 11-23-2008, 11:20 AM
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erm, not all breeders do. My mum and I used to breed dogs. Im ashamed of it, with all the overpopulation, but I certainly NEVER thought of Rosie as a thing meant for money. She is one of my best friends and a part of the family. we all love her very much.



we bred from her to get money, yes, because my parents have always said that if an animal can make money in a way that doesnt hurt it (Rosie had had two phantom pregnancies, so we knew she wanted babies) then it is stupid not too. I dont agree with this, even then I thought that selling my dogs children to buy a new kitchen table was sad, but that was not why we got my dog.



we chose the stud dog very carefully to make sure the puppies would be healthy. Both parents had good bloodlines, so we were turning buyers away and we vetted potential owners very, very carefully. One puppy was very ill and lost weight on rosies milk, and while most breeders would have left him to die, I hand reared him.



the people who bought rosies pups would not have gone to a shelter as they wanted border terrier puppies of known bloodlines and pedigree, so we were not denying any shelter dogs a home.



I know breedings wrong, but I dont like that comment at all. You cant say all breeders just want money. A lot of people breed because they love dogs, and want to support rare or favourite breeds. All dog breeding books will say, a responsible breeder will breed because they love dogs not for money. If you want money go get another job because dog breeding is expensive and time consuming if done properly. You really dont make much money at all, and it is a lot of work. My dad even said himself that he earns more in a day at work that we got from 6 puppies if you count all the supplements, special food, pens, baskets, vets bills, books and formula milk.



Havocjohn was being sarcastic, I think.

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#143 Old 11-23-2008, 12:57 PM
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Didn't have time to read the entire thread, but I would agree with many others that LOTS of shelters still have young dogs/puppies. Also, check the newspapers. Lots of people need to get rid of pets for some reason (that's how we got my first 2 kitties) and it's generally cheaper than a shelter, and they'll often give you things that belong to the animal. I still own my first cat's flannel baby blanket. I keep it near his ashes.



Also, getting a puppy may not be the best idea if you have two older dogs. We got a kitten to be my 10-year-old cat's companion, and they did NOT get along. The kitten wanted to play a lot and my older cat was NOT up for it. Keep that in mind, as I know you're going to want your current dogs to stay happy!
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#144 Old 11-23-2008, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by luv4sheep View Post

You cant say all breeders just want money. A lot of people breed because they love dogs, and want to support rare or favourite breeds.



Do they love the dogs waiting on death row too?
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#145 Old 11-23-2008, 01:23 PM
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Also, check the newspapers. Lots of people need to get rid of pets for some reason (that's how we got my first 2 kitties) and it's generally cheaper than a shelter, and they'll often give you things that belong to the animal. I still own my first cat's flannel baby blanket. I keep it near his ashes.



They're called backyard breeders whether they do it once or a hundred times. They should be working with a shelter/rescue to rehome the animals and that way you know they aren't just doing it for the cash, how ever little that monetary value may be.



Rescues and shelters are always the best and safest way to know that you are helping an animal genuinely in need and not condemning another to death.
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#146 Old 11-23-2008, 02:35 PM
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Do they love the dogs waiting on death row too?



I guess its the same kind of love as the rare breed pig farmers. They love pigs, but still kill them while they are young. If all they cared about was money they would farm big commercial pigs.



no, I dont understand either. Im just saying that not all dog breeders think of dogs as nothing more than money machines.
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#147 Old 11-23-2008, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by luv4sheep View Post

They love pigs, but still kill them while they are young.



uh..???

Because murder is such a great way to show love.
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#148 Old 11-23-2008, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by thalestral View Post

They're called backyard breeders whether they do it once or a hundred times. They should be working with a shelter/rescue to rehome the animals and that way you know they aren't just doing it for the cash, how ever little that monetary value may be.



Rescues and shelters are always the best and safest way to know that you are helping an animal genuinely in need and not condemning another to death.



+1
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#149 Old 11-23-2008, 06:09 PM
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People also take out ads to get rid of family pets.
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#150 Old 11-24-2008, 08:26 AM
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moved to ze 'eap.
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