Less Cruel to Eat Meat than Eat Eggs and Drink Milk - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-18-2008, 11:09 AM
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I've been wondering about this... and no I'm not about to go have some steak. I've rather been distributing HumaneMyth pamphlets and it got me thinking... should [we] be convincing [others] stop eating meat first and go lacto ovo, or to stop the milk and eggs first? Would it be better to be a reverse lacto ovo vegetarian and just not eat the milk and eggs and continue to eat the meat?



Which is more humane? The majority of vegetarians eat one or the other. Perhaps its time to reevaluate.



http://www.humanemyth.org/



Is it less cruel to just eat the chicken at a younger age rather than keep it in a battery cage for 2-3 years in terrible condition to be thrown away when it's too old to lay?



Is it less cruel to eat veal of a young cow that hasn't endured years of suffering rather than drink the milk of its mother that has been caged for 3+ years... and will be slaughtered and eaten after words anyway?



In the same light, is not more environmentally sustainable to end the life early than to feed it for years and years before eating it?



This argument of course doesn't apply to the farmer down the street you know that has a friendly chicken that roams around, he just eats her eggs. Very rare an occurence, but I have heard it to happen.



Discuss.
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#2 Old 08-18-2008, 11:13 AM
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I think that in many cases, it is less cruel to eat flesh than milk products.



Eggs from a chicken that is rescued or cared for and cherished, while not vegan, wouldn't necessarily be cruel at all.

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#3 Old 08-18-2008, 11:30 AM
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*listens to the worms crawling out of the can.*

*sings, joyously, "go on, worms, go on! you're free! free to crawl all over the world!"*

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#4 Old 08-18-2008, 11:40 AM
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was it the 32oz enconomy size can you've opened for me?
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#5 Old 08-18-2008, 12:03 PM
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"and I stand

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made of weak and useless men"

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#6 Old 08-18-2008, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nykoelle View Post

I've been wondering about this... and no I'm not about to go have some steak. I've rather been distributing HumaneMyth pamphlets and it got me thinking... should I be convincing my boyfriend to stop eating meat first and go lacto ovo, or should I get him to stop the milk and eggs first? Would it be better to be a reverse lacto ovo vegetarian and just not eat the milk and eggs and continue to eat the meat?



Where is the most humane starting place?



http://www.humanemyth.org/



Is it less cruel to just eat the chicken at a younger age rather than keep it in a battery cage for 2-3 years in terrible condition to be thrown away when it's too old to lay?



Is it less cruel to eat veal of a young cow that hasn't endured years of suffering rather than drink the milk of its mother that has been caged for 3+ years... and will be slaughtered and eaten after words anyway?



In the same light, is not more environmentally sustainable to end the life early than to feed it for years and years before eating it?



This argument of course doesn't apply to the farmer down the street you know that has a friendly chicken that roams around, he just eats her eggs. Very rare an occurence, but I have heard it to happen.



Discuss.



How's about convincing him to go vegan?

Isn't that the more logical choice then ranking different forms of abuse on some kind of twisted scale?
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#7 Old 08-18-2008, 12:29 PM
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How's about convincing him to go vegan?

Isn't that the more logical choice then ranking different forms of abuse on some kind of twisted scale?



If you'll read the OPs post a little more carefully, the OP is trying to gradually transition her boyfriend to a vegan diet and she's questioning which to do *first* -- eliminate the meat, or the dairy/eggs.

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#8 Old 08-18-2008, 12:29 PM
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Most everyone needs a starting place, especially him. It's not about him anyway. There are many that are vegetarian to reduce suffering, I'm merely looking at it another way, that the world could further benefit if they stop using milk and egg products instead.
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#9 Old 08-18-2008, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rabid_child View Post

If you'll read the OPs post a little more carefully, the OP is trying to gradually transition her boyfriend to a vegan diet and she's questioning which to do *first* -- eliminate the meat, or the dairy/eggs.



No where does it say she's trying to 'gradually transition' him.



Avoiding specific types of animal products and continuing to eat others creates a distinction between them; an unnecessary, illogical distinction that best manifests itself in the form of ovo-lacto vegetarianism masquerading as 'ethical', 'cruelty-free' etc.



I see no reason to rationalise which is more humane (and, I have issues with the whole 'humane' crap too). What makes sense to me, if one isn't prepared to just go vegan straight away, is too eliminate the products the person hasn't got such a great attachment to, saving the hardest ones to go til last. Trying to work out which is more/less humane is just disingenuous for a number of reasons.
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#10 Old 08-18-2008, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AutomaticMan View Post

No where does it say she's trying to 'gradually transition' him.



Avoiding specific types of animal products and continuing to eat others creates a distinction between them; an unnecessary, illogical distinction that best manifests itself in the form of ovo-lacto vegetarianism masquerading as 'ethical', 'cruelty-free' etc.



I see no reason to rationalise which is more humane (and, I have issues with the whole 'humane' crap too). What makes sense to me, if one isn't prepared to just go vegan straight away, is too eliminate the products the person hasn't got such a great attachment to, saving the hardest ones to go til last. Trying to work out which is more/less humane is just disingenuous for a number of reasons.





Oi. I edited the post for clarity. I'm not talking about ease of transition. I'm merely curious if there's any agreement that to reduce suffering, one should start by eliminating eggs/dairy as opposed to not eating meat, which seems to be the popular first start.



And if it is an 'an unnecessary, illogical distinction' then everyone would be vegan. That's a perfect world. We don't have that. I'm merely trying to find the lesser of the two evils: the meat or the dairy/egg industry?
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#11 Old 08-18-2008, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by nykoelle View Post

Most everyone needs a starting place, especially him. It's not about him anyway. There are many that are vegetarian to reduce suffering, I'm merely looking at it another way, that the world could further benefit if they stop using milk and egg products instead.

And likewise increase their consumption of animal flesh, similarly to how many lacto/ovo-vegetarians, after having eliminated it from their diets, tend to increase their consumption of dairy and eggs?



The world esp. the animals could further benefit if l/o-vegetarians refrained from comparing “degrees of cruelty” or alleged “humaneness” involved in obtaining different animal products.



Instead, in addition to already abstaining from eating meat, l/o-vegetarians should be encouraged to decrease their consumption of all other animal products from the beginning, with the overall goal of going vegan if and when they can (transitioning gradually, if this seems more promising, which can vary individually).
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#12 Old 08-18-2008, 01:43 PM
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Ok i give up. I was taken aback by the media I was handing out and was merely curious if anyone else agreed meat is the lesser evil to milk and eggs. As opposed to me encouraging others to stop eating meat, I was considering advertising to stop drinking milk and eating cheese, you know, the one sentence to the colleague that orders an omelet when you don't have the chance to give them the rundown on what a vegan is. I mistakenly used a comparison of persuading my SO to give up meat.



Nevermind.
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#13 Old 08-18-2008, 01:44 PM
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There's also another point (not sure if covered there as I didn't read it), but if you want to talk about suffering -- it also depends on numbers....



If people stopped eating milk/eggs, the same number of animals (more or less) would be kept around and in "cages" of sorts until their large enough for slaughter (as the meats are supposed to taste different based on different factors). However... if you eliminate all meat sources, eggs/dairy would all be on small farms if that -- you'd basically stop all animal based foods within a few years.

If animals used for dairy/eggs are sent to slaughter now -- it means the meat is used now. Stop the eggs/dairy and you'll still use the same number of animals. Cut out some sources of nutrition for the masses -- and you might end up with MORE animals slaughtered to make up for the "loss of protein and nutrients" from not using the eggs/dairy (and you know... they'll still be breed and such so the products will still exist - just not be used). Unless the roosters and such are kept away from the eggs -- there might be billions of more animals living and eating food (which would, in turn, make less plant food for humans), with wild chickens and cows roaming the countrysides -- so more meat would be pushed on people, or just sold so cheap that people will use it as their primary food intake over vegetables.



Everything is a cause and effect, or like a rope(s) on pulleys, you can't cause a shift one place and not expect there to be side effects.



Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer if animals weren't used for anything (since then we might actually have vegan foods available in all stores that are fit to eat!) -- there's just always side effects to everything.
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#14 Old 08-18-2008, 01:59 PM
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The majority of the chickens used for eggs are so ravaged from laying they aren't used for meat. If we stopped eggs now, that number of chickens would die out and not be replaced. More chickens would survive and less would suffer.



Dairy is a bit more tricky, I think the number of cows for slaughter would go down initially with the surplus of dairy cows but probably even out again. The same number of cows would ultimately die, but there would be less suffering in their lifetime. Death isn't the worst they can suffer
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#15 Old 08-18-2008, 02:10 PM
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Isn't dairy always connected to veal?
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#16 Old 08-18-2008, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinoa View Post

Isn't dairy always connected to veal?



"Always" is a tricky term...Someone will be correct to mention:



1) Hare Krishna Sacred Cows



2) An uncle who has a cow as a "pet"



3) Some other obscure "exception" to the commercial farming "rule"



How 'bout just saying "usually" in place of "always"?

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#17 Old 08-18-2008, 02:15 PM
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Right.



Isn't dairy usually connected to veal?
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#18 Old 08-18-2008, 02:16 PM
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2) An uncle who has a cow as a "pet"

And who was probably attacked by PETA members dressed as carrots

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#19 Old 08-18-2008, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinoa View Post

Right.



Isn't dairy usually connected to veal?

Yes, yes it is.



I still maintain dairy products cause more suffering than any other animal product.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

And who was probably attacked by PETA members dressed as carrots

Yes! Exactly!!!

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#20 Old 08-18-2008, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

And who was probably attacked by PETA members dressed as carrots



You see, this is why PETA is so unpopular. Wait, sorry. Wrong thread.



I've got to agree with AutomaticMan on this one. Veganism should be the ultimate goal, and it's probably pointless to discuss degrees of cruelty and suffering. When convincing people to give up certain products, start with whatever's easiest for that individual to give up.



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#21 Old 08-18-2008, 04:18 PM
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nykoelle, why don't you ask your boyfriend which he thinks would be easier to give up first as he transitions to vegan? The point is he go vegan and stay vegan, right? I don't think there's much sense in trying to figure out on some empirical cruelty scale which is worse when what matters is "What does it take for Person X to go vegan?" Some people find it easier to cut out flesh first. Others find it easier to cut out dairy and eggs. Others start with carmine, or whatever product first grossed them out.



Oh, and not that anyone asked, but I don't think it would be right to try to trick someone into going vegan. If it's gonna stick, they have to want to, too.

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#22 Old 08-18-2008, 04:21 PM
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Oh, and not that anyone asked, but I don't think it would be right to try to trick someone into going vegan. If it's gonna stick, they have to want to, too.

I don't see how you could "trick" them unless you made all their food and household purchases and lied about them being vegan.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#23 Old 08-19-2008, 02:46 AM
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nykoelle, why don't you ask your boyfriend which he thinks would be easier to give up first as he transitions to vegan? The point is he go vegan and stay vegan, right? I don't think there's much sense in trying to figure out on some empirical cruelty scale which is worse when what matters is "What does it take for Person X to go vegan?" Some people find it easier to cut out flesh first. Others find it easier to cut out dairy and eggs. Others start with carmine, or whatever product first grossed them out.



This seems like a sensible route to take to me.
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#24 Old 08-19-2008, 03:30 AM
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If you're going to sell a vegan lifestyle, you might as well learn the craft.



Quote:
1. Attention: You have to get the attention of your prospect through some advertising or prospecting method.



2. Interest: Build their interest by using an emotional appeal such as how good they will look to their boss when they make this deal that will save the company thousands of dollars!



3. Desire: Build their desire for your product by showing them its features and letting them sample or test-drive it.



4. Conviction: Increase their desire for your product by statistically proving the worth of your product. Compare it to its competitors. Use testimonials from happy customers.



5. Action: Encourage the prospect to act. This is your closing. Ask for the order. If they object, address their objections. There are then many variations of closing techniques that can help get the business.



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#25 Old 08-19-2008, 01:28 PM
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I was trying to open discussion about the ethical implications of dairy/eggs versus meat, as the trend seems to be to simply not eat meat. I opened it badly by citing my boyfriend and my quest to reduce his animal consumption. Nevermind him, discuss if you please.
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#26 Old 08-19-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nykoelle View Post

I was trying to open discussion about the ethical implications of dairy/eggs versus meat, as the trend seems to be to simply not eat meat. I opened it badly by citing my boyfriend and my quest to reduce his animal consumption. Nevermind him, discuss if you please.



I understood your question but I saw only the edited version of it. I think this is an excellent question.



I agree with some of the others that when we are presenting the case for eliminating animal products that we should focus on the whole animal exploitation/killing industries. So we present all the info (ethics, health, environment) and say that we should reduce where we can so as to reduce suffering with the goal to eliminate all suffering as is reasonable (subjective term). So one person may quit eating dairy, eggs, small animals and eat steak for now with the goal of becoming vegan eventually. Another may eliminate everything but eggs with the goal of becoming vegan. I can't really see much difference in the meat industry vs the dairy industry.
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#27 Old 08-19-2008, 03:03 PM
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Ah, so you're wondering if we should advocate quitting eggs/dairy first, not instead of eliminating meat from one's diet? (all the questions in the OP about eating it seem to have confused me a bit yesterday)

This is an interesting point of view (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.peacefulprairie.org/advocacy.html View Post

The misperception by lacto-ovo "vegetarians" and the general public that "meat" consumption is cruel to animals, while egg and dairy consumption is less cruel, or not cruel at all, has been one of the biggest barriers to effective vegan outreach efforts for decades. The time is long overdue that we prioritize informing the public and ourselves about the hidden horrors of ALL forms of dairy and egg production over the far more obvious horrors of flesh production.



Once someone has been educated about the exploitations and violations inherent in ALL egg and dairy production, if they are at all inclined to act on that information by going Vegan, the "meat" part of the equation is intuitive. However, we have seen countless people who stop consuming "meat" because they do not want an animal to be killed for them, yet they still (often for decades) cling to the idea that there is no harm in consuming eggs and dairy because "chickens just lay eggs" or "cows have to be milked or they will die". They are so secure in the belief that eggs and milk just happen, and that no one is killed for them, that they actually beam with pride when they announce that they are "vegetarian" and would NEVER eat "meat"!

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#28 Old 08-19-2008, 10:02 PM
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Is it less cruel to just eat the chicken at a younger age rather than keep it in a battery cage for 2-3 years in terrible condition to be thrown away when it's too old to lay?





They use different chickens for meat than they do for layer hens. But I agree that buying caged eggs is no less cruel than Inghams chicken.
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#29 Old 08-20-2008, 06:53 AM
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I understood your question but I saw only the edited version of it. I think this is an excellent question.



I agree with some of the others that when we are presenting the case for eliminating animal products that we should focus on the whole animal exploitation/killing industries. So we present all the info (ethics, health, environment) and say that we should reduce where we can so as to reduce suffering with the goal to eliminate all suffering as is reasonable (subjective term). So one person may quit eating dairy, eggs, small animals and eat steak for now with the goal of becoming vegan eventually. Another may eliminate everything but eggs with the goal of becoming vegan. I can't really see much difference in the meat industry vs the dairy industry.



I do. They're both very wrong in their own, but from an environmentalist point of view, it's less sustainable to eat eggs and dairy as more feed/water is needed to keep the animal alive to produce that substance. Also, layer chickens are not used for food, so they're just disposed of. Cruelty wise, I look at it as the animals in eggs/dairy are tortured for years before they ultimately meet their doom. It would be less cruel (not more compassionate) to consume the animal at a younger age rather than let it suffer for years.



I'd advocate that those not interested in a vegan lifestyle would be making more a difference if they ate meat and gave up the dairy and eggs.
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#30 Old 08-20-2008, 07:26 AM
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I do. They're both very wrong in their own, but from an environmentalist point of view, it's less sustainable to eat eggs and dairy as more feed/water is needed to keep the animal alive to produce that substance. Also, layer chickens are not used for food, so they're just disposed of. Cruelty wise, I look at it as the animals in eggs/dairy are tortured for years before they ultimately meet their doom. It would be less cruel (not more compassionate) to consume the animal at a younger age rather than let it suffer for years.



I'd advocate that those not interested in a vegan lifestyle would be making more a difference if they ate meat and gave up the dairy and eggs.




"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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