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I'm not going to mention that site by name, but it has something to do with lettuce and a leaf.
It is extremely dismissive of the moral status of non-humans, and engages in a lot of rationalization.
Here is a much better site:
http://www.peacefulprairie.org/help.html
This site also has a good page about egg production, the so-called "free range" eggs:
http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html
It is extremely dismissive of the moral status of non-humans, and engages in a lot of rationalization.
Here is a much better site:
http://www.peacefulprairie.org/help.html
This site also has a good page about egg production, the so-called "free range" eggs:
http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html
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Hoping that vegetarians on VB who felt pressured by vegans see this thread, follow the OP links, and that they (*checks forum title*) will consider to go vegan if/when they can.
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Hopefully we'll get answers to these very fair questions.
Anyone with a dad can ask their dad to answer these questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary 
Does dad think any part of this is incorrect?
- calves are forcibly removed from mothers on or within days of birth - leaving calves with no mothers and creating a veal industry
- impregnation every year until the cow is "spent" after about a quarter (or maybe half, on a "better" but rare farm) of her natural life...
- at which point she's transported on a cattle truck and slaughtered like other farm animals, and becomes hamburger
Does dad think any part of this is incorrect?
- calves are forcibly removed from mothers on or within days of birth - leaving calves with no mothers and creating a veal industry
- impregnation every year until the cow is "spent" after about a quarter (or maybe half, on a "better" but rare farm) of her natural life...
- at which point she's transported on a cattle truck and slaughtered like other farm animals, and becomes hamburger
Anyone with a dad can ask their dad to answer these questions.
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I don't have a dad and am not really male, but, I approve ^this message.
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Thanks *Ahimsa*.
With the permission of the OP, I would like to open this up to a wider discussion of the issue at hand. There is the issue of the veg*ns who felt that the info on the lettuce site was not fully revealing but there is also the issue of those who were merely pointing that out were portrayed as attacking vegetarianism and pressuring vegetarians to become vegan. So I'd like to post this:
Again, I'm not attacking the OP from the other lettuce thread. I'm just looking for clarification. As I said in the other thread:
We need to differentiate between attacking or pressuring someone and presenting facts. Even someone who is committed to his vegetarianism and says it's not open for discussion (which, again, is perfectly fine here on VB) says:
With the permission of the OP, I would like to open this up to a wider discussion of the issue at hand. There is the issue of the veg*ns who felt that the info on the lettuce site was not fully revealing but there is also the issue of those who were merely pointing that out were portrayed as attacking vegetarianism and pressuring vegetarians to become vegan. So I'd like to post this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Ahimsa*
I'm very interested to read what is shared here.
I also would love for you to elaborate on how you felt pressured in the thread you mentioned.
I didn't post in the thread you mentioned and I am not answering your question posed here, so I hope that it is okay with you for me to post here *at all*.
I'm very interested to read what is shared here.
I also would love for you to elaborate on how you felt pressured in the thread you mentioned.
I didn't post in the thread you mentioned and I am not answering your question posed here, so I hope that it is okay with you for me to post here *at all*.
Again, I'm not attacking the OP from the other lettuce thread. I'm just looking for clarification. As I said in the other thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun
In the previous thread there was no attack to your character, your dad's character, or to vegetarianism.
There was noone trying to pressure you to become vegan.
There was some strong expression of the glossing over of the ethical concerns of the dairy/egg industry.
In the previous thread there was no attack to your character, your dad's character, or to vegetarianism.
There was noone trying to pressure you to become vegan.
There was some strong expression of the glossing over of the ethical concerns of the dairy/egg industry.
We need to differentiate between attacking or pressuring someone and presenting facts. Even someone who is committed to his vegetarianism and says it's not open for discussion (which, again, is perfectly fine here on VB) says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcxl
I'm new to the board so perhaps I'm talking out my ass (which admittedly is often the case)...
But I must admit that the palpable tension between vegans and lacto-ovo vegetarians on this board put me off quite a bit from the start. Thankfully it didn't push me off course and I'm commited to being vegetarian regardless, but it does at times seem to be a no-win situation for us. As a lacto-ovo vegetarian, you're not only ridiculed by the omni's who view us as freaks, but you're also chastised by vegans for being a hypocrite and/or 'not doing enough'. We just can't win, and it makes adapting to a vegetarian lifestyle much harder than it should be.
My own personal philosophy that I have adopted on this board is this: I'm doing what I can right now, it's much better than what I was doing before, and my journey is simply not open to debate by anybody. Who is to say where I might end up down the road? Maybe I'll become vegan, maybe not. But for right now... I am where I am.
for the website in question: I have viewed it and found it a bit distasteful even as a lacto-ovo vegetarian. They should certainly be able to promote vegetarianism without showing disdain for veganism. Better to not discuss it at all than to discuss it negatively. It just isn't necessary.
Jim
I'm new to the board so perhaps I'm talking out my ass (which admittedly is often the case)...
But I must admit that the palpable tension between vegans and lacto-ovo vegetarians on this board put me off quite a bit from the start. Thankfully it didn't push me off course and I'm commited to being vegetarian regardless, but it does at times seem to be a no-win situation for us. As a lacto-ovo vegetarian, you're not only ridiculed by the omni's who view us as freaks, but you're also chastised by vegans for being a hypocrite and/or 'not doing enough'. We just can't win, and it makes adapting to a vegetarian lifestyle much harder than it should be.
My own personal philosophy that I have adopted on this board is this: I'm doing what I can right now, it's much better than what I was doing before, and my journey is simply not open to debate by anybody. Who is to say where I might end up down the road? Maybe I'll become vegan, maybe not. But for right now... I am where I am.
for the website in question: I have viewed it and found it a bit distasteful even as a lacto-ovo vegetarian. They should certainly be able to promote vegetarianism without showing disdain for veganism. Better to not discuss it at all than to discuss it negatively. It just isn't necessary.
Jim
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Does that mean you like the site, Viggie?
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It just means that I don't think a pro-vegetarian site posted in the vegetarian support section should have resulted in thread closure.
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Did it "have" to be closed? Did the op request for it to be closed or did a mod do it independently? I didn't post there but, ironically enough, it appears that vegetarians were saying it was biased, not vegans.
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Well, that site, as a vegetarian site should not post that stuff. When I read the argument of why not to be vegan, I really read it as reasons why it's silly to be on the line between omni and vegan. If that's your decision I won't force mine on you, but I don't think that these people should be allowed to make their arguments the way they do, they are at the very best cyclical.
After this whole paragraph speaking about how eggs and dairy create surplus to requirement animals, how can they even question if they partaking in cruelty is necessarily true? The argument about zoos really sounds like they are saying if it's natural to eat meat than it's okay...well, I know a lot of omni's that think it's natural, does that make it right? Oh and since they have sub-clinical mastitis they *may never* become ill...this implies that they also *may* become ill?
From my understanding it was not closed for the link or the content, but the fact that the OP wanted to share the site, and when people gave a differing point of view, the OP got upset and wasn't willing to accept discussion of the topic.
Quote:
There are undoubtedly a few real issues that need careful thought and consideration. Milk production obviously involves cows first giving birth to calves. These babies are separated from their mothers and this can cause some degree of short-term distress. Out of the male calves, most will be “surplus to requirement” for the dairy industry and end up as part of the meat supply. Similarly, free-range egg production involves the need for some fertile eggs to be laid; again, the majority of the male chicks will be “surplus to requirement” and they are immediately killed. A vegan believes that a vegetarian who eats dairy products and/or free-range eggs is taking part in this animal cruelty. But is this necessarily true?
After this whole paragraph speaking about how eggs and dairy create surplus to requirement animals, how can they even question if they partaking in cruelty is necessarily true? The argument about zoos really sounds like they are saying if it's natural to eat meat than it's okay...well, I know a lot of omni's that think it's natural, does that make it right? Oh and since they have sub-clinical mastitis they *may never* become ill...this implies that they also *may* become ill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
It just means that I don't think a pro-vegetarian site posted in the vegetarian support section should have resulted in thread closure.
It just means that I don't think a pro-vegetarian site posted in the vegetarian support section should have resulted in thread closure.
From my understanding it was not closed for the link or the content, but the fact that the OP wanted to share the site, and when people gave a differing point of view, the OP got upset and wasn't willing to accept discussion of the topic.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
It just means that I don't think a pro-vegetarian site posted in the vegetarian support section should have resulted in thread closure.
It just means that I don't think a pro-vegetarian site posted in the vegetarian support section should have resulted in thread closure.
I guess I would put it this way:
Suppose a vegan started a thread in the vegan subforum and linked to a site that said, "The true vegetarians never consider veganism. They think that it's perfectly ok that cows are slaughtered as a part of the dairy industry because they didn't become vegetarian out of concern for animals. People become vegetarian for health reasons and those who are concerned about animals become vegan".
That would be pro-vegan but it would also be providing misinformation about vegetarianism. I would expect vegetarians to post corrections and I would expect that thread to be closed. I think that kind of misinformation belongs in the Heap where it can be properly debated and where vegetarians can post their feelings on the anti-vegetarian bias on the link.
That's what we've got here except in reverse.
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Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sun
I would expect vegetarians to post corrections and I would expect that thread to be closed.
I would expect vegetarians to post corrections and I would expect that thread to be closed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *AHIMSA*
Did it "have" to be closed? Did the op request for it to be closed or did a mod do it independently? I didn't post there but, ironically enough, it appears that vegetarians were saying it was biased, not vegans.
Did it "have" to be closed? Did the op request for it to be closed or did a mod do it independently? I didn't post there but, ironically enough, it appears that vegetarians were saying it was biased, not vegans.
A mod closed it. It just turned into a big misunderstanding, which lead to the OP feeling attacked, etc. It was going in circles.
I consider myself a "strict vegetarian," so I do eat vegan most all of the time. I thought that lettuce leaf site was clearly not in support of veganism, and like many others have said, agree that they just should not talk about it at all. Vegetarianism and veganism are clearly "related," so I don't think a site for either one should knock the other. I personally haven't seen vegan websites that say, "Vegetarianism isn't enough. Go vegan." However I have seen sites clearly biased vegan sites that provide you with all of the information about why you should go vegan, which leaves a person to question for themself, 'How much is enough for me to do?'...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
here's the OP
Quote:
Ive found a really helpful vegetarian Web site called lettuceleaf.org. I wish Id found this a year ago when I became a veggie so I could have understood about rennet earlier.
My Dad's been great with me becoming vegetarian and not bothered about my health because hes a doctor. Im the first veggie in our family. I showed Dad lettuceleaf.org and he read it and now he's decided to become vegetarian!
Heres the link: www.lettuceleaf.org
My Dad's been great with me becoming vegetarian and not bothered about my health because hes a doctor. Im the first veggie in our family. I showed Dad lettuceleaf.org and he read it and now he's decided to become vegetarian!
Heres the link: www.lettuceleaf.org
the OP Was not asking it to remain a support thread (you are getting two threads mixed up). She just wanted to let people know what a great veggie website that was. Others wanted her to know there were much better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FitChick99
which leaves a person to question for themself, 'How much is enough for me to do?'...
which leaves a person to question for themself, 'How much is enough for me to do?'...
That's a good question for anyone to ask themselves, in regards to many aspects of their life.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
Yeah... but if you read through that thread, you will see how frustrating it was... people were trying to help, but the OP wouldn't take it, and just kept taking things as personal attacks, resulting in a negative "tone" in the thread. It didn't have to turn into such a debate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
I would think you can't demand support for a site that creates a divide between vegetarians and vegans. I would think that would be obvious from the recent discussion in the Community assistance forum.
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In posts 6 and 7 she requested the topic remain vegetarianism not veganism, asked that the topic remain supportive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by treyb
the OP Was not asking it to remain a support thread (you are getting two threads mixed up). She just wanted to let people know what a great veggie website that was. Others wanted her to know there were much better.
the OP Was not asking it to remain a support thread (you are getting two threads mixed up). She just wanted to let people know what a great veggie website that was. Others wanted her to know there were much better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
In posts 6 and 7 she requested the topic remain vegetarianism not veganism, asked that the topic remain supportive.
In posts 6 and 7 she requested the topic remain vegetarianism not veganism, asked that the topic remain supportive.
That is not a valid request, since she was posting a site that was/is creating a divide. How can a thread remain supportive if it is denouncing us.
Oh she meant supportive to vegetarian, but fcuk vegans. I guess I was confused
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
Well I guess I see things differently. I wouldn't expect debate and controversy in a forum where it's not clearly allowed and where the OP specifically asked that it remain a support thread.
You are also not allowed to start threads that invite contoversy. Posting misinformation yourself or linking to a site that does the same is not allowed in the support forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
Here's my take on things and then I'd appreciate it if everyone would get back on topic...
First and foremost this is a vegetarian board. When I started VB there were several vegan forums but no vegetarian forums - so that was, is, and always will be its purpose.
Being vegetarian is the minimum requirement to post here. So anyone who meets that requirement should never be made to feel as though they are not doing enough. The only exceptions where this may not apply are the vegan forum and Compost Heap.
Posts meant to "educate" or attack others for not doing enough are not appropriate and will fall under the "discouraging others from posting" portion of the rules.
What is OK:
Someone says we have to drink cow milk or their udders will burst. You post factual information to the contrary.
What is not OK:
Someone says they had a grilled cheese for lunch in the vegetarian forum. You post about the cow's living conditions, how the baby cows are taken away from their mother's to produce the dairy, etc.
On the flip-side, threads/posts complaining about vegans are not appropriate as they do make up a significant portion of our membership. Everyone is welcome here and with a few exceptions things seem to work pretty well. Future (and some current) threads/posts meant to divide the two will be closed. It's not constructive.
Hopefully that clears up a few things. Thanks.
Here's my take on things and then I'd appreciate it if everyone would get back on topic...
First and foremost this is a vegetarian board. When I started VB there were several vegan forums but no vegetarian forums - so that was, is, and always will be its purpose.
Being vegetarian is the minimum requirement to post here. So anyone who meets that requirement should never be made to feel as though they are not doing enough. The only exceptions where this may not apply are the vegan forum and Compost Heap.
Posts meant to "educate" or attack others for not doing enough are not appropriate and will fall under the "discouraging others from posting" portion of the rules.
What is OK:
Someone says we have to drink cow milk or their udders will burst. You post factual information to the contrary.
What is not OK:
Someone says they had a grilled cheese for lunch in the vegetarian forum. You post about the cow's living conditions, how the baby cows are taken away from their mother's to produce the dairy, etc.
On the flip-side, threads/posts complaining about vegans are not appropriate as they do make up a significant portion of our membership. Everyone is welcome here and with a few exceptions things seem to work pretty well. Future (and some current) threads/posts meant to divide the two will be closed. It's not constructive.
Hopefully that clears up a few things. Thanks.
https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=92411
If the OP from the other thread linked to a vegetarian site that was all pro-vegetarian and that posted no misinformation or glossing over of veganism, that would be perfectly acceptable. The vegetarians could go on and on talking about how wonderful it is to be vegetarian. BUT... if they post misinformation, then they can be corrected by vegans or vegetarians.
The site in question clearly does a glossing over of the ethical concerns of the dairy/egg industry. Even some perfectly-happy-to-remain-vegetarians agree. I'm not sure we could find a less biased perspective.
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I think it's important to note the difference between being unsupportive and dissonance. You can disagree with someone and still have it fit within the context of the support forum. I'm going to try to draw some sort of analogy but if I'm making little sense I'm also in the middle of analyzing a data set with several thousand data points and my brain is a little fuzzy..
So, for example, you create a post stating that you just had the most delicious vegan frozen dinner ever and everyone should eat it and someone can respond by saying they had said dinner as well but did not enjoy it. There is no issue with that, it isn't unsupportive of the individual's vegetarianism, it is a difference of opinion.
Now say the person who enjoyed the dinner comes back and says "Well my neighbor owns the company and he cooks really well!" and someone else comes on and says "I tried it as well but I wasn't fond of it either because it was too processed" -- that is neither attacking nor unsupportive, though the OP could certainly take it that way and respond with "My mother thought it was great too, and she works in a restaurant!" and get defensive and upset because the original opinion wasn't agreed with. Stating that it was yummy but too costly, or tasty but not healthy for every day would also be acceptable dissonance while still being ok within the parameters of "support forum."
None of that is personal attacks and none of it is unsupportive. Now if the response was "You have no taste because that frozen dinner was crap" or "How could you purchase such rubbish?" then that would be more personal and attacky and perhaps not so appropriate for a support forum.
Now I'm going to go regress some more
So, for example, you create a post stating that you just had the most delicious vegan frozen dinner ever and everyone should eat it and someone can respond by saying they had said dinner as well but did not enjoy it. There is no issue with that, it isn't unsupportive of the individual's vegetarianism, it is a difference of opinion.
Now say the person who enjoyed the dinner comes back and says "Well my neighbor owns the company and he cooks really well!" and someone else comes on and says "I tried it as well but I wasn't fond of it either because it was too processed" -- that is neither attacking nor unsupportive, though the OP could certainly take it that way and respond with "My mother thought it was great too, and she works in a restaurant!" and get defensive and upset because the original opinion wasn't agreed with. Stating that it was yummy but too costly, or tasty but not healthy for every day would also be acceptable dissonance while still being ok within the parameters of "support forum."
None of that is personal attacks and none of it is unsupportive. Now if the response was "You have no taste because that frozen dinner was crap" or "How could you purchase such rubbish?" then that would be more personal and attacky and perhaps not so appropriate for a support forum.
Now I'm going to go regress some more
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Maybe that's something to ask the mods. But I hardly think the intent of the current rule system was to apply it to outside links. The site she posted was pro-vegetarian and was in the correct forum. People who disagreed could have easily opened their own thread in the appropriate place to debate it. Which they did anyway after they ruined a support thread.
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Well I was one of the posters on the topic and I just felt that the website was not revealing the truth and was rather biased. I explained to the OP that it was not a personal attack on her nor her values, I was simply surprised by a vegetarian website (which I would assume is trying to teach some moral standards) that they seem very anti-vegan. I understand that many people become veg*n for other reasons than animal welfare and all that, but the website seemed to trivialize what goes on in factory farms and tries to brush it off as though vegans are taking it too far and making issues out of nothing (such as how cows react when their calves are taken from them). I think it's a bad site...it's a good start for new vegetarians, but I think that all points of views should be addressed, especially since vegans and vegetarians are on the same road...one just goes a little farther.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabid_child
I think it's important to note the difference between being unsupportive and dissonance. You can disagree with someone and still have it fit within the context of the support forum. I'm going to try to draw some sort of analogy but if I'm making little sense I'm also in the middle of analyzing a data set with several thousand data points and my brain is a little fuzzy..
So, for example, you create a post stating that you just had the most delicious vegan frozen dinner ever and everyone should eat it and someone can respond by saying they had said dinner as well but did not enjoy it. There is no issue with that, it isn't unsupportive of the individual's vegetarianism, it is a difference of opinion.
Now say the person who enjoyed the dinner comes back and says "Well my neighbor owns the company and he cooks really well!" and someone else comes on and says "I tried it as well but I wasn't fond of it either because it was too processed" -- that is neither attacking nor unsupportive, though the OP could certainly take it that way and respond with "My mother thought it was great too, and she works in a restaurant!" and get defensive and upset because the original opinion wasn't agreed with. Stating that it was yummy but too costly, or tasty but not healthy for every day would also be acceptable dissonance while still being ok within the parameters of "support forum."
None of that is personal attacks and none of it is unsupportive. Now if the response was "You have no taste because that frozen dinner was crap" or "How could you purchase such rubbish?" then that would be more personal and attacky and perhaps not so appropriate for a support forum.
Now I'm going to go regress some more
I think it's important to note the difference between being unsupportive and dissonance. You can disagree with someone and still have it fit within the context of the support forum. I'm going to try to draw some sort of analogy but if I'm making little sense I'm also in the middle of analyzing a data set with several thousand data points and my brain is a little fuzzy..
So, for example, you create a post stating that you just had the most delicious vegan frozen dinner ever and everyone should eat it and someone can respond by saying they had said dinner as well but did not enjoy it. There is no issue with that, it isn't unsupportive of the individual's vegetarianism, it is a difference of opinion.
Now say the person who enjoyed the dinner comes back and says "Well my neighbor owns the company and he cooks really well!" and someone else comes on and says "I tried it as well but I wasn't fond of it either because it was too processed" -- that is neither attacking nor unsupportive, though the OP could certainly take it that way and respond with "My mother thought it was great too, and she works in a restaurant!" and get defensive and upset because the original opinion wasn't agreed with. Stating that it was yummy but too costly, or tasty but not healthy for every day would also be acceptable dissonance while still being ok within the parameters of "support forum."
None of that is personal attacks and none of it is unsupportive. Now if the response was "You have no taste because that frozen dinner was crap" or "How could you purchase such rubbish?" then that would be more personal and attacky and perhaps not so appropriate for a support forum.
Now I'm going to go regress some more
I find your analogy to be rubbish. Crap, in fact!
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I never posted in either thread, but I did read them. I thought about posting, but the OP was getting so upset over the other posts that I didn't want to get into it. Any sensible l/o vegetarian would see that the section posted about veganism was a huge crock. No one made any personal attacks towards the OP, everyone was respectable and I didn't see any reason for the OP to feel attacked or defensive.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilant20
But I hardly think the intent of the current rule system was to apply it to outside links.
But I hardly think the intent of the current rule system was to apply it to outside links.
So you're saying that a vegan posting in the lacto-ovo vegetarian forum a link to a site that bashes lacto-ovos is okay? Because it's just a link. Well good to know.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegchica13
I never posted in either thread, but I did read them. I thought about posting, but the OP was getting so upset over the other posts that I didn't want to get into it. Any sensible l/o vegetarian would see that the section posted about veganism was a huge crock. No one made any personal attacks towards the OP, everyone was respectable and I didn't see any reason for the OP to feel attacked or defensive.
I never posted in either thread, but I did read them. I thought about posting, but the OP was getting so upset over the other posts that I didn't want to get into it. Any sensible l/o vegetarian would see that the section posted about veganism was a huge crock. No one made any personal attacks towards the OP, everyone was respectable and I didn't see any reason for the OP to feel attacked or defensive.
Thanks for the input. I just keep seeing vegetarians saying things like that and it reaffirms what I personally observed.
"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,852
Yes, if it's a pro-vegan site posted in the vegan support forum then I don't see why not. But if the link was solely to a bashing page, then I wouldn't see how it could be a support topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
So you're saying that a vegan posting in the lacto-ovo vegetarian forum a link to a site that bashes lacto-ovos is okay? Because it's just a link. Well good to know.
So you're saying that a vegan posting in the lacto-ovo vegetarian forum a link to a site that bashes lacto-ovos is okay? Because it's just a link. Well good to know.
Lynn
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
The link in the other thread was not to a pro-vegetarian site. It was to a pro-vegetarian & anti-vegan site.
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
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