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#91 Old 07-27-2008, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kali View Post

the violence doesnt bother you tho?



I'm not sure what you mean. I don't like it, I don't want to see it. I don't like the kind of entertainment in which people hurt themselves for kicks, like Jackass. But a lot of body modification also inarguably involves pain - for a fashion statement, personal release, or whatever (people even remove parts of their bodies in home surgeries). And some people have kinky bedroom habits that also very specifically involve pain. I don't want to be a part of it, but I believe consenting adults should be able to do what they want with their bodies.



If I thought boxing should be banned, I suppose I should also think that certain types of self-performed body modification and consensual sex practices should also be banned.

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#92 Old 07-27-2008, 01:44 PM
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im not really talking about the pain involved, im asking you if the violence itself bothers you.
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#93 Old 07-27-2008, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kali View Post

im not really talking about the pain involved, im asking you if the violence itself bothers you.



Like I said, I don't prefer to see things like Jackass myself, where someone might get hurt, even if they enjoy doing it.



But I don't put something that's wholly consensual in the same realm as something that is not at all consensual, in terms of ethical issues, or maybe even the term "violence."



I looked up a web definition of the word "violence," and the first thing that came up for me was:



Quote:
an act of aggression (as one against a person who resists); "he may accomplish by craft in the long run what he cannot do by force and violence in ...



I'd have to consider it some more, but I'm not sure I consider boxing "violence" exactly, at least by some definitions, as it's consensual.



Does the violence in S-M sex bother you?

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#94 Old 07-27-2008, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Does the violence in S-M sex bother you?



i dont think this is the place to discuss my personal life
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#95 Old 07-27-2008, 02:12 PM
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i dont think this is the place to discuss my personal life



Exactly I support your right to do what you want with consenting adults.

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#96 Old 07-27-2008, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kali View Post

this thread is interesting cuz on the one hand theres veg*ns who we can safely assume are sickened by the concept of violence and aggression towards animals, yet on the other they seem pretty comfortable with the idea of violence and aggression amongst humans.

This thread is interesting because on the one hand there are veg*ns who we can safely assume are sickened by the concept of consensual violence involved in boxing, and on the other they seem pretty comfortable with the idea that meat-eaters have a "right to choose" to cause tremendous suffering and death on non-consenting victims via meat-eating.

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#97 Old 07-27-2008, 03:09 PM
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are you referring to me with that comment?
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#98 Old 07-27-2008, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

I haven't read most of the thread, so I'm not sure if you're referring to something specifically, but for me, it has to do with choice and consent. Animals on farms and in labs have no consent as to what is done to them, and there's not a thing about it that's entertaining or enjoyable to them. Likewise children and babies in situations in which they may get hurt. But able adult humans have the right to do with their own bodies as they see fit.



This sums up how I feel too.

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#99 Old 07-27-2008, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

I'd have to consider it some more, but I'm not sure I consider boxing "violence" exactly, at least by some definitions, as it's consensual.



Whether the violence is consensual has nothing to do with it for me, it's still two guys punching the crap out of each and leaving lacerations and bruises on each other.....I consider that violence.....whether it's two guys fighting each other in a pub brawl or organized consenual fighting in a boxing ring, it often results in the same outcome and I find it very ugly.
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#100 Old 07-27-2008, 04:05 PM
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Whether the violence is consensual has nothing to do with it for me, it's still two guys punching the crap out of each and leaving lacerations and bruises on each other.....I consider that violence.....whether it's two guys fighting each other in a pub brawl or organized consenual fighting in a boxing ring, it often results in the same outcome and I find it very ugly.



Hey, I'm not into it either, but I still don't think it should be banned - or if I did, I'd want to be consistent and ban other consentual stuff too, like I listed before.



And if I were insistent on banning that consentual stuff that may cause "lacerations and bruises," I'd certainly feel that the nonconsentual stuff that results in horrific suffering and death - like animal farming, vivisection, and such should be banned, no question, no excuses. And I wouldn't complain if someone followed their morals and banned consumption of pure violence, like a famous musician at a concert he was headlining, who banned the sale of meat in his tent, or whatever. There's no question that for that meat to be produced, extreme and nonconsenting violence occurred, such that someone had their life taken away for it.



I find nonconsentual violence and infliction of pain far more disturbing than anything mutually agreed upon between able adults.

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#101 Old 07-27-2008, 04:19 PM
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And if I were insistent on banning that consentual stuff that may cause "lacerations and bruises," I'd certainly feel that the nonconsentual stuff that results in horrific suffering and death - like animal farming, vivisection, and such should be banned, no question, no excuses. And I wouldn't complain if someone followed their morals and banned consumption of pure violence, like a famous musician at a concert he was headlining, who banned the sale of meat in his tent, or whatever. There's no question that for that meat to be produced, extreme and nonconsenting violence occurred, such that someone had their life taken away for it.



I find nonconsentual violence and infliction of pain far more disturbing than anything mutually agreed upon between able adults.



So why is violence and the resulting injuries ok when it's consensual but not when it isn't?



And if you want to discuss Morrissey, you might want to get your facts straight about what actually happened. He didn't ban meat at that concert....he unsuccessfully tried to get it banned.
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#102 Old 07-27-2008, 04:37 PM
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... they seem pretty comfortable with the idea of violence and aggression amongst humans.

I am very disturbed by human aggression, regardless of the context in which it occurs. It makes no sense to me that people find the aggressive urge to commit violent acts upon others acceptable when both parties agree to engage in violent aggression.



The trouble is, that as long as most people not only have no problem with violent and aggressive "sports" when they take place amongst consenting adults, but actually celebrate them, and make popular cultural heroes out of the people who excel at these "sports", if we manage to ban controlled violence, where are these aggressive humans going to be able to vent their urge to commit violence against others?



As a society in general we do not teach young people that aggression is a negative human trait that no longer has a role in the survival of our species. People seem to assume that aggression in humans is a given, and that there is not only nothing that can be done to change it, there is actually nothing wrong with it. Until this extremely disturbing attitude is changed, I prefer to see people taking out their aggressions on equally aggressive people, who do consent to participate in the mutual aggression-fest. Though I do find it very disturbing, banning the activity is probably not a very good idea.

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#103 Old 07-27-2008, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sybaritik View Post

So why is violence and the resulting injuries ok when it's consensual but not when it isn't?



For the same reason I would find rough consentual/S-M sex disturbing but "o.k.," but forced sex/rape resulting in the same soreness or even injuries "not o.k.": consent of able adults. I believe that able adults have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies. Do you want to ban S-M sex between consenting adults? Do you want to ban all body modification that people do to themselves that results in injuries (by definition)?



Quote:
And if you want to discuss Morrissey, you might want to get your facts straight about what actually happened. He didn't ban meat at that concert....he unsuccessfully tried to get it banned.



"Trying" vs. successfully getting it banned has no relevance on the point I was making.

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#104 Old 07-27-2008, 05:19 PM
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Again, it is not the individual agression that is the problem. It is the public support of it by big business and government. If 2 people want to consent ot have a fist fight, and have one, fine. But I am against this being a legal business. We should not allow a business to incorporate if their charter says "for the purpose of arranging fist-fights or boxing matches and make a ton of money off it by staging it for large numbers of people to see and get all excited about, and offering large amount of money to individuals for them to batter each other."



How consensual is it, really, when you offer 20,000 to an impoverished youth, to fight another impoverished youth, and have rich people pay money to see it, and bet huge amounts of money on the outcome?
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#105 Old 07-27-2008, 05:29 PM
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There is also the ugliness of rich people who won't condescent to pay a decent wage to various youthful laborers, for doing honest labor, but for the same youth to batter another youth, they will pay him a small fortune for that. It is ugly ugly ugly.
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#106 Old 07-27-2008, 05:32 PM
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I am sorry, but it is NOT ok to violate someone, just because they agreed to it.
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#107 Old 07-27-2008, 05:44 PM
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Here is the way I look at it. Should people be allowed to accept money, to fight? I'm not sure. But should someone be allowed to offer money to someone, to beat up someone else (as opposed to beating up the person that offered the money)? My answer is no, you should be allowed to offer money to people, to hurt other people.



If 2 impoverished youths want to get into a fight with each other, and they both agree to it - they both get arrested and charged with assault. But if someone offers them money to do it - he isn't doing anything illegal? That sucks.
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#108 Old 07-27-2008, 06:27 PM
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And you can't escape the fact that, in boxing, the intent is to cause brain damage to another person. The brain damage is often, if not invariably, permanent.

How sick, stupid and ridiculous is that.
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#109 Old 07-27-2008, 06:41 PM
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I still don't think banning something gets to the root of it, though.



We've bred cultures obsessed with material wealth and machoism over compassion and common sense.



The most prominent anti-veg*n material I've seen targeted at men basically says that you're a pussy if you go vegetarian, and forget about vegan. Eating meat makes you manly, and so does punching someone repeatedly in the face. And hey, if you can theoretically make millions of dollars to do it... Why not?



I'm sure that if "sports" with the intent of death were legalized shows with big cash prizes would spring up all over, they'd have more contestants sign up than they could ever use and it'd be a huge hit all over the "civilized" world. I think the real problem is our cultural desire to see pain and people desperate enough to go after it for money and glory.
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#110 Old 07-27-2008, 06:54 PM
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I still don't think banning something gets to the root of it, though.





I think that banning something sets an example to the community at large. For example, physical abuse towards children has been banned in many societies and has resulted (from my observation) in a paradigm shift in the general populace.



Conversely, the promotion of boxing as a 'sport' conditions people into believing that a good way to sort out differences is to punch someone in the head.

And, I think I read somewhere that there is often a spike in violent crime after a well publicised (state) execution, which would support the notion that violence begets violence.
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#111 Old 07-27-2008, 07:04 PM
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I think that banning something sets an example to the community at large. For example, physical abuse towards children has been banned in many societies and has resulted (from my observation) in a paradigm shift in the general populace.



I agree to an extent. At least it puts some fear of retribution into them and it may, over time, reduce violence, although there is still far too much physical abuse against children being committed to say that criminalizing it has been entirely successful, just as violent (even consensual) won't stop because it's illegal. If it's reduced, that is a good thing. I'd prefer governments would work to improve the conditions of the poor and uneducated before they're drawn to violence. I know that at least in the US the only violent crime that rises every year is that of youth crime, and most of the offenders are from poor communities.



There is actually a youth boxing center a block from my house that always makes claims about how much it reduces the violence in the community, and maybe it does... But wouldn't it be better if it were an after school program promoting education, volunteer work or some such? Of course that wouldn't draw as many children, since they can't punch each other that way. I want to see governments working towards improving life, not just telling us no.
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#112 Old 07-27-2008, 09:51 PM
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And you can't escape the fact that, in boxing, the intent is to cause brain damage to another person. The brain damage is often, if not invariably, permanent.

How sick, stupid and ridiculous is that.



Sure it's ridiculous and perhaps sick. So is a lot of S-M sex, body modification amputations, some piercings, and so on. But I still think consenting, able adults should have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies.



Why should I concern myself with what other consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies, even if I find it sick and ridiculous? I'm sure a lot of choices any of us make for ourselves would be considered ridiculous by some people too. And I'm sure plenty of religious people think some of us are making a terrible mistake and condemning ourselves to eternal hell for not believing in Jesus. But as adults we have the right to condemn ourselves to eternal hell or to make decisions that even permanently change our own bodies. I know I don't want people to "save me from myself" if I make decisions about my own body and spirit.

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#113 Old 07-27-2008, 11:13 PM
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Sure it's ridiculous and perhaps sick. So is a lot of S-M sex, body modification amputations, some piercings, and so on. But I still think consenting, able adults should have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies.



Consent, maybe. Informed consent, unlikely, as most of the boxers I've seen interviewed don't seem too well endowed with grey matter (although that may be due to the brain damage previously referred to!).
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#114 Old 07-27-2008, 11:33 PM
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no, boxing should not be banned, next question.



but really, people should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want. If they do it and find they don't like it, then they should find something else.
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#115 Old 07-27-2008, 11:42 PM
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but really, people should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want.

*shudders at the thought*
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#116 Old 07-27-2008, 11:50 PM
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*shudders at the thought*



Yeah, shudder, because I meant no boundaries.
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#117 Old 07-28-2008, 12:17 AM
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Yeah, shudder, because I meant no boundaries.



thank God that will never happen..
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#118 Old 07-28-2008, 12:55 AM
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but really, people should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want.



Like drive at 300 kph on the highway?

Pilot a plane without a licence?

Have sex with children?



Hint: It's probably a good idea to think about what you've written before clicking on 'Submit Reply' (Maybe for a few years! )
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#119 Old 07-28-2008, 01:51 AM
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For the same reason I would find rough consentual/S-M sex disturbing but "o.k.," but forced sex/rape resulting in the same soreness or even injuries "not o.k.": consent of able adults. I believe that able adults have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies. Do you want to ban S-M sex between consenting adults? Do you want to ban all body modification that people do to themselves that results in injuries (by definition)?.





Body modification is a bad example to use because it's not hurting anyone else.



And why would I want to ban S&M when it doesn't usually result in brain damage, fractures to the cheekbones, lacerations, and bruising.



Sports involving violence that results in injuries of the above nature is what I'm against.





Quote:
"Trying" vs. successfully getting it banned has no relevance on the point I was making.



It does to me. If you're going to use an analogy like that as an argument against me, make sure you have your facts straight.







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And you can't escape the fact that, in boxing, the intent is to cause brain damage to another person. The brain damage is often, if not invariably, permanent.

How sick, stupid and ridiculous is that.







Quote:
I think that banning something sets an example to the community at large. For example, physical abuse towards children has been banned in many societies and has resulted (from my observation) in a paradigm shift in the general populace.



Conversely, the promotion of boxing as a 'sport' conditions people into believing that a good way to sort out differences is to punch someone in the head.



Exactly!
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#120 Old 07-28-2008, 02:54 AM
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So it's the violence that causes the injuries, not the injuries themselves that we're concerned about? People are getting killed and maimed in nearly every major sport. Skiers and snowboarders cash in their chips on a regular basis. Any form of motorized racing comes complete with its own set of extreme risks. Parachutes don't open, rock climbers lose their grip, people get attacked by bears while walking their dog. I even heard that a country almost lost their beloved leader over an ill-timed pretzel. Life is fraught with peril at every turn, so if a few folks want an extra helping of it by bopping each other in the face, who am I to say it's wrong. After all, I drink diet soda.



Quote:
Conversely, the promotion of boxing as a 'sport' conditions people into believing that a good way to sort out differences is to punch someone in the head.

That would be true if sports were about sorting out differences. But they're usually not, unless we happen to be watching Rocky IV. And often boxers have much more respect for their opponents than rivals in other sports. Canadian champ Gaetan Hart explains:



Quote:
When asked whether you should hate your opponent Hart explains that while every fighter has his own approach, he himself could never hate an opponent. Hate leads to fear, he says. Fear can lead to panic, and if you panic in the ring youre finished. And besides, my opponent is just a man like me he only has two arms and two legs and I have no reason to fear him. Respect him yes, but fear him never. Hart then explains how you need a focused intensity to succeed in this sport and that controlling your mind in battle is just as important as controlling your fists. Nobody knows exactly whats going to happen, he says. All you know for sure is, youre gonna be in a fight. The rest happens as it happens so you have to be ready for anything. And at the end of the day, he adds, Were all fighters and hating my opponent is like hating a part of myself.

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