Legalize Drugs - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 07-11-2008, 10:31 PM
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The federal government has taken complete control and has severely limited the freedoms that we once had when the U.S. was founded.



Let's take a gander at the money spent on the "war on drugs": http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm





SO FAR THIS YEAR: Our government has spent over 27 BILLION dollars fighting the use of drugs.



So far this year over a million people have already been thrown into jail for possession of illegal substances. Yes, the place that really belongs to rapists, murderers and burglars are now mostly filled up with drug users.



Think of what that money could go to. Just imagine what we could do with an extra 30,000,000,000 dollars every year. Quite-a-freakin bit.



One of the most common reasons for shootings and gang fights and various other violent activities is over drugs. This is because drugs are still transferred only within the black market. If you legalize drugs, it will end all of this violence overnight.



So which do you think is worse: potentially fatal violence, or drug use? One is a personal choice done unto oneself, while the other is injury/death from an outside influence. The victims don't even need to be involved, but could simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time.



Also consider the fact that regardless of the laws, you WILL be able to access these drugs.





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#2 Old 07-11-2008, 10:55 PM
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MOD POST:



Be very careful when discussing drugs on VB. Talk about it in theory, but please do not refer to any personal usage of illegal substances, as per the terms of service.

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As a Canadian, I have watched the American War on drugs with a combination of horror and amusement. I have a very hard time understanding why the American government continues to throw good money after bad. It's not working... Try a different strategy!

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#3 Old 07-11-2008, 10:58 PM
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As a Canadian, I have watched the American War on drugs with a combination of horror and amusement. I have a very hard time understanding why the American government continues to throw good money after bad. It's not working... Try a different strategy!





Right. It isn't working, and it never will work. It should be the parents responsibilities to keep their children off of drugs, not the governments.
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#4 Old 07-11-2008, 11:14 PM
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I seriously doubt the 'overnight' fix. Legalizing drugs will not break up gangs. Gangs rival over money, essentially. If drugs are legal, they will be able to openly fight for dealing territory and such. They will do the things that they were not able to do in the general public for fear of being arrested, previously. I feel like it'd be opening up a can of worms. Not saying what's happening now is ideal, either..
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#5 Old 07-12-2008, 02:09 AM
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Unless you treat it the way tobacco is treated. Where police might fail big business control could see gangs wiped out quickly, much in the same way supermarkets, malls and multi-nationals are wiping out the old fashioned market gardeners and mom-and-dad corner stores.



For gangs to "openly fight" you also have to legalise guns, knives and gang-killing, too.

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#6 Old 07-12-2008, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Eclipse27 View Post

Right. It isn't working, and it never will work. It should be the parents responsibilities to keep their children off of drugs, not the governments.





So your suggestion is that we should just let all the drugs out there just flow into the U.S. it should be legal for people to get all hopeed up on PCP,crack,morphine,heroin or any other hard core drug just so a few hippes can smoke pot im guessing. Yea thats a real good solution you should run for office.
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#7 Old 07-12-2008, 06:27 AM
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I'm also for complete legalization in the U.S. Not to allow people to do drugs - I think that's pretty much a negative scenario and people do drugs anyway - but to end the violence associated with it and the business opportunity created by it for the prison industry.
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#8 Old 07-12-2008, 11:48 AM
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Legalize and tax the hell out of it, like alcohol and tabacco I think it would solve alot of problems with debts in this country(US).
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#9 Old 07-12-2008, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PlaybackGuru View Post

Legalize and tax the hell out of it, like alcohol and tabacco I think it would solve alot of problems with debts in this country(US).



I wouldn't advocate heavy taxes on drugs. I personally think that 'sin taxes' on things like alcohol and tobacco are a bad idea. Of course, there should be sales tax, and possibly an additional modest 'sin tax', (As the government needs to be able to oil the wheels of bureaucracy, and they have an excuse to get some milk from the enterprise.) but I think a heavy tax would be a bad idea.



I'm reminded of an episode of 'Shameless' where the main character declared 'Make poverty history - Make drugs cheaper!' And although it was a facetious comment in a comedy, I think there is some truth to it. A sin tax on drugs would hit the less well off the most.



I think there are two main reasons for legalisation. One is that purity can be established. Drugs can be regulated, and you can know that you're getting good stuff. A free market in drugs would ensure a quality product, not cut with any rubbish, and consumers could be protected from 'passing off'.



Secondly, legalisation would hurt organised crime, as one of their major markets would become legitimate.



A third reason is that the government could tax the product and make money. But I don't think this is a genuine argument, because the Government like wasting money (See the Labour Government: 1997-Present)
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#10 Old 07-12-2008, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PlaybackGuru View Post

Legalize and tax the hell out of it, like alcohol and tabacco I think it would solve alot of problems with debts in this country(US).

how much can you tax it? people will just sell illegally again if it's too high. how much do you need to tax it to compensate for the negative externalities, the social costs of drug addiction?



this model works for marijuana but not much else, not "hard" drugs.

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#11 Old 07-12-2008, 07:15 PM
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Ooh great, another drug thread!



I can't wait to read the comments about how you shouldn't do meth cause it contains battery acid (PMSL!) and how someone's uncle once got a habit and therefore no-one should be allowed to any drugs because they "destroy lives" :P

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#12 Old 07-12-2008, 07:43 PM
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From my experience, the people doing drugs (especially smoking pot) are the same ones drinking Budweiser and going to dog fights. Violent people, those who listen to Ted Nugent, and hockey fans. Klan members, cops, and prison guards. People you wouldn't trust with children or animals.



Your experience may vary.
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#13 Old 07-12-2008, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cstadt View Post

I seriously doubt the 'overnight' fix. Legalizing drugs will not break up gangs. Gangs rival over money, essentially. If drugs are legal, they will be able to openly fight for dealing territory and such. They will do the things that they were not able to do in the general public for fear of being arrested, previously. I feel like it'd be opening up a can of worms. Not saying what's happening now is ideal, either..



Gangs get probably 95% of their money through drug trafficking. The gang members won't be making any more cash, and they will end up homeless. This will provide a great reason for people not to join them.



There would be no more dealing of drugs.
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#14 Old 07-12-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by guinnesshero View Post

So your suggestion is that we should just let all the drugs out there just flow into the U.S. it should be legal for people to get all hopeed up on PCP,crack,morphine,heroin or any other hard core drug just so a few hippes can smoke pot im guessing. Yea thats a real good solution you should run for office.



Brilliant argument! Though I fail to see one.



I guess you care not for personal freedom. Let the big boys upstairs decide everything that we can and can't do.



"I pledge allegiance, to the flag..." Yay America!
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#15 Old 07-12-2008, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

how much can you tax it? people will just sell illegally again if it's too high. how much do you need to tax it to compensate for the negative externalities, the social costs of drug addiction?



this model works for marijuana but not much else, not "hard" drugs.



Not necessarily. Companies would surely begin selling products with various drugs, but perhaps not all. People could still theoretically "deal" the harder drugs, but you could do it right in front of the police station with no problem. There wouldn't be any violence involved as there is now due to it's illegality.



It'd be like buying stuff at a yard sale.
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#16 Old 07-12-2008, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post

From my experience, the people doing drugs (especially smoking pot) are the same ones drinking Budweiser and going to dog fights. Violent people, those who listen to Ted Nugent, and hockey fans. Klan members, cops, and prison guards. People you wouldn't trust with children or animals.



Your experience may vary.



I would trust cops with children. Don't see why not...



That is a generalization however. That shouldn't be the deciding factor.
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#17 Old 07-12-2008, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post

From my experience, the people doing drugs (especially smoking pot) are the same ones drinking Budweiser and going to dog fights. Violent people, those who listen to Ted Nugent, and hockey fans. Klan members, cops, and prison guards. People you wouldn't trust with children or animals.



Your experience may vary.







Classic!

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#18 Old 07-12-2008, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Pixelle View Post

Classic!



It's politically meaningless.
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#19 Old 07-12-2008, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Eclipse27 View Post

Not necessarily. Companies would surely begin selling products with various drugs, but perhaps not all. People could still theoretically "deal" the harder drugs, but you could do it right in front of the police station with no problem. There wouldn't be any violence involved as there is now due to it's illegality.

there would still be illegal drugs if you taxed drugs. if the tax was too high many would sell drugs without taxes, legal drugs would be sold illegally.

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It'd be like buying stuff at a yard sale.

that's not an appealing image to me. what things would you put in your body that you bought at a yard sale?

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#20 Old 07-12-2008, 08:57 PM
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there would still be illegal drugs if you taxed drugs. if the tax was too high many would sell drugs without taxes, legal drugs would be sold illegally.



Very good point. However I don't think it should be taxed. Lord knows it will however, and this will be the next step that needs to be fixed on our way to legal drugs.



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that's not an appealing image to me. what things would you put in your body that you bought at a yard sale?



Sure...but not quite so literally.
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#21 Old 07-12-2008, 09:17 PM
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Also for that matter, people could of course make the drugs themselves. That would still be legal.
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#22 Old 07-13-2008, 05:15 AM
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Here's a decent writeup on the Dutch drug policy, explaining it better than I could (it being one of the more muddled aspects of Dutch politics):



http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/dru.../thenetherlan/



It should be noted that the production of cannabis is as repressed here as it is elsewhere in the West. More so, probably, as it's small, and densely populated (and thus easier to enforce).



As for America, it's hubris to think that you can ever root out the cannabis plant entirely in such a huge, partly wild country. I'd argue for a way of dealing with it that doesn't turn as many people into criminals as the current system apparently does.
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#23 Old 07-13-2008, 09:07 AM
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I'm not sure where I'd fall in this argument. I'd have to look at the numbers closely, but I can see both sides. If the numbers that were posted in the first post were accurate, I'd have to favor legalising them as there are better ways of spending that money.
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#24 Old 07-13-2008, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post

From my experience, the people doing drugs (especially smoking pot) are the same ones drinking Budweiser and going to dog fights. Violent people, those who listen to Ted Nugent, and hockey fans. Klan members, cops, and prison guards. People you wouldn't trust with children or animals.



Your experience may vary.



You're comparing cops and prison guards to people in the KKK? That's an odd comparison if you ask me. I'd say the same about most hockey fans, but I'm not even sure who Ted Nugent is.
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#25 Old 07-13-2008, 09:45 AM
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You're comparing cops and prison guards to people in the KKK?



No, just saying that in my experience they share a certain characteristic in that they tend to be pot smokers.
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#26 Old 07-13-2008, 10:41 AM
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No, just saying that in my experience they share a certain characteristic in that they tend to be pot smokers.





They probably all drink alcohol too....so what's your bloody point?
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#27 Old 07-13-2008, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post

From my experience, the people doing drugs (especially smoking pot) are the same ones drinking Budweiser and going to dog fights. Violent people, those who listen to Ted Nugent, and hockey fans. Klan members, cops, and prison guards. People you wouldn't trust with children or animals.



Your experience may vary.



My experience varies dramatically....



In my experience, the people smoking pot are business owners, lawyers, musicians, students, retirees, athletes, homeowners, writers, doctors, artists, parents, surfers, educators, politicians, construction workers, slackers, farmers, managers, leaders and followers. And everything in between.



Associating drug use with a certain type or class of person is naive at best, and somewhat bigoted.

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#28 Old 07-13-2008, 01:35 PM
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"I'm for the decriminalization of drug use / posession with intent to use. I think the criminalization aspect lies within the selling. If this were handled like tabacco is, I'd be for it."



Decriminalization sounds like it might be a plausible compromise, however what it really means is that the police can arrest you, convict you, fine you 1000, and hold in in jail for a year, without all the rights you would normally be allowed, if you were accused of a criminal act. No trial by jury for example. Yes, it doesn't go on your record. You can still get a job. But you can be convicted more easily.
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#29 Old 07-13-2008, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post

From my experience, the people doing drugs (especially smoking pot) are the same ones drinking Budweiser and going to dog fights. Violent people, those who listen to Ted Nugent, and hockey fans. Klan members, cops, and prison guards. People you wouldn't trust with children or animals.



Your experience may vary.



You have sessions with some very odd people. You need to start picking your bud-buddies a bit better.

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#30 Old 07-13-2008, 01:47 PM
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If you want to save lives and honour rights, decriminalisation all the way. But if you want to oppress and deny people their freedom, criminalise certain substances.



Even from a person not so horribly bias as myself, I think it's clear to see that: the existence of the black market causes almost all of the problems associated with drug use, and that the black market only exists because taking drugs has been criminalised.
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