Marriage, gay marriage, etc etc. - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 10-27-2003, 01:25 PM
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Hi All, I was just reading the postings about the gay adoption and it inspired me to start another one with a slightly different topic. My fiance and I are (obviously) getting married this spring, but we have a very different style of ceremony in mind. We are both atheists (or secular humanists, if the A word scares you), and of course veg*an and slightly to the left i might say ;-)



We are having a very small ceremony, but several of our closest friends and family in attendance are gay, and we want to take our wedding as an opportunity to express our support for their relationships. We dont believe we should have any more rights than they can have. They can have beautiful relationships and families just as lovingly as a "traditional" male/female pairing. For our ceremony we will not be pronounced "man and wife", we will be pronounced "partners in life" and likewise all other gender specific parts will be modified. It basically will run a lot like a commitment ceremony. It might shock my conservative catholic grandmother, but if she isn't already shocked by the vegan/inter-cultural/bilingual/punk rock ceremony we're having, I'd be surprised. In any case, wanted to share my support for all our gay/lesbian/transgendered friends out in veggieland, and get people talking about the marriage institution if they so feel, and about gay marriage. Here in Massachusetts we have the potential to have gay marriage legalized and I am hoping with all my being that it happens.
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#2 Old 10-27-2003, 01:52 PM
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Congratulations! IMHO your declaration of commitment to each other needs to be representative of your personalities. I also think it's great that you think enough of your friends to be sensitive to their feelings.



As an aside and totally unrelated, while same sex marriage might not be recognized, my father is currently working for a company that is forward thinking enough to recongnize "partnerships" and offer health insurance benefits, etc. to non-traditional couples as a benefit!
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#3 Old 10-27-2003, 02:04 PM
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Marriage itself is an obsolete and harmful institution, but if gays want to waste their lives by getting married we should let them. It's not going to hurt anyone. People oppose gay marriage because they are afraid of homosexuals and look down on them, whether they admit it or not. This is usually tied to another archaic institution: religion. Don't even get me started...



**** tradition.
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#4 Old 10-27-2003, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peebs View Post

"Marriage itself is an obsolete and harmful institution" ... "It's not going to hurt anyone"



LOL. Which is it, Peebs?



I'm married (just celebrated my one year anniversary yesterday), and it doesn't feel obsolete to me. The only harm I've suffered is the judgment of my single friends who assume I don't want to go out anymore, which is patently false.



***** assumptions...
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#5 Old 10-27-2003, 02:35 PM
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Heh, yeah I noticed that before I posted it. I should have worded it better to say that if gays get married, it's not going to negatively affect Joe and Martha who live down the block.



Marriage is still stupid though.
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#6 Old 10-27-2003, 02:39 PM
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Heh, yeah I noticed that before I posted it. I should have worded it better to say that if gays get married, it's not going to negatively affect Joe and Martha who live down the block.



Marriage is still stupid though.



Hey peebs, I've heard the anti-marriage argument before, I agree with some parts but in the long run its worth it for me. how about you hit the details for those who dont know what you're talking about?
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#7 Old 10-27-2003, 02:58 PM
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bstutzma, It sounds as though your ceremony is going to be great!



I believe that the civil law should recognize marriage between gay/lesbian couples. For those who are opposed, I would point out that it wasn't so long ago that individuals of different races weren't allowed to marry.
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#8 Old 10-27-2003, 06:26 PM
 
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I've never really cared much about marriage or whether my partner & I would be able to be married. But I lost my job recently, and lost my health insurance too. I have some health problems and take several meds which I don't know if I can afford now. It would be very helpful to me to be on my partner's insurance, and I don't see how it would hurt anybody.



bstutzma, your ceremony sounds super!
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#9 Old 10-27-2003, 08:03 PM
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I think my only problem is coming from the christian prespective although I am not christian.

To be married in a church before "GOD" goes against biblical beliefs.

I have no problem with them calling it something else "partners in life" but I do not think they should call it a marriage because of the disrespect that shows towards its origin and its biblical history.

I think gays should have just as much right as the next person. So I think that laws on gays all over should be changed. "partners in life" should carry the same meaning as Husband and wife and they should be allowed the same privilages such as collecting life insurance and other rediculous things they are not permited to do now.



But changing the meaning of the word isn't something I agree with
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#10 Old 10-27-2003, 08:37 PM
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To be married in a church before "GOD" goes against biblical beliefs.



Marriage has existed in other times and countries/cultures apart from the bible. I'm a secular humanist, and my wife and I were married by a secular humanist minister in a civil ceremony. It was a wedding, and we are married, as recognized by the law. Not sure how this is a problem, yet your opinion of same-sex marriages would seem to apply to my marriage as well. Interesting.
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#11 Old 10-27-2003, 08:40 PM
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Marriage is still stupid though.



So, now you have to go into detail over why you think marriage is stupid. I used to think I'd never get married (child of several divorces myself), but I'm so glad I did, once I found someone with whom I could grow and be myself.
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#12 Old 10-27-2003, 09:54 PM
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Marriage is stupid because marriage is not necessary for two people to live together, have children, love eachother, etc. My dad told me the only reason he and my mom got married was to make their religious parents happy, and that a common-law relationship would have suited them fine. Women no longer need a man to support them financially. Furthermore, committing yourself to one person for the rest of your life is a little drastic. Seeing as ~half of marriages end in divorce, many people agree. How many of the non-divorces are loveless and maybe rife with infidelity, staying together for the sake of the kids?



Marriage is a joke, ABC and FOX have shown us that.



I will never get married because I have no desire to commit myself to anyone (monogamy is IMO unnatural). I don't want to become some bored, old man left with only memories of my younger days to cheer me up, resigned to "anaesthetizing [myself] with sports and pornography" (thanks Bill Maher!).



I won't get married because I recognize that just because I love someone right now doesn't mean I will in 5, 10,25,50 years.



I'm not going to debate this any further, the thread is about gay marriage. I also do not have the energy to contend with an onslaught from the married people on this forum. I'm NOT saying you shouldn't get married, or that marriage should be banned. Just that I don't like the idea, and I do not have to like it.
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#13 Old 10-27-2003, 10:45 PM
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Well there are some definite advantages to legal marriage over just living together, that is why the issue of gay marriage is so important. Things like health care, being able to see someone in the hospital, make decisions for them when they are ill, issues of property and inheritance. I'm sure there are many more things.



If there were no marriage, I think I would want some kind of legal agreement between myself and anyone I wanted to live with, share financials with, raise kids with, and make other huge sacrifices for. Not only for my protection, but to show to each other that we are serious about our committment to one another.



Of course this is meaningless to anyone who isn't into monogamy. (You tell all your date how you feel about monogamy, I hope! )



I do think that marriage has a dark side when people get married partly out of mere social pressure to do so. Culture and expectations are so strong, it wasn't until a year or two ago I seriously was able to imagine myself being single my whole life and still be happy.
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#14 Old 10-28-2003, 01:21 AM
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Been at this married thing 26 years to the same ol' guy. Wouldn't trade him for anything.
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#15 Old 10-28-2003, 02:30 AM
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I wasn't debating you, Peebs. But I do like to understand what's behind people's proclamations, like "marriage is stupid!" Doing so enlightens me further as to the logic that led you to your opinion, while comments like the above have no instructive value.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Peebs View Post

Marriage is stupid because marriage is not necessary for two people to live together, have children, love eachother, etc. My dad told me the only reason he and my mom got married was to make their religious parents happy, and that a common-law relationship would have suited them fine. Women no longer need a man to support them financially. Furthermore, committing yourself to one person for the rest of your life is a little drastic. Seeing as ~half of marriages end in divorce, many people agree. How many of the non-divorces are loveless and maybe rife with infidelity, staying together for the sake of the kids?



Marriage is a joke, ABC and FOX have shown us that.



I will never get married because I have no desire to commit myself to anyone (monogamy is IMO unnatural). I don't want to become some bored, old man left with only memories of my younger days to cheer me up, resigned to "anaesthetizing [myself] with sports and pornography" (thanks Bill Maher!).



I won't get married because I recognize that just because I love someone right now doesn't mean I will in 5, 10,25,50 years.



I'm not going to debate this any further, the thread is about gay marriage. I also do not have the energy to contend with an onslaught from the married people on this forum. I'm NOT saying you shouldn't get married, or that marriage should be banned. Just that I don't like the idea, and I do not have to like it.

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#16 Old 10-28-2003, 08:33 AM
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Gracie, many companies offer benefits to gay partners so long as they live together. I know my company does. It probably wouldn't hurt to check the policy at your partner's work.



I definitely believe in monogamy, at least my relationship, hehe. i cant imagine being with anyone else, and I know he cant either. we cant get enough of eachother after 7 years already, so another 50 won't hurt ;-) we don't really see the "wedding" as a big event except as an opportunity to share our life together with our friends and family. (aka, subject them to vegan food, punk rock, merengue and some lord of the rings music hehe) nothing will really change between us, as we already live together and have for several years. the wedding is more a celebration of our love for eachother, and a formal declaration of it to the world. we will not be married before any "god" because neither of us believe in one. what i do believe in is our strength together, and our ability to take on anything.



ok enough mushy stuff ;-)



Basically, what we are doing is no different than what two of our closest friends are doing - they just both happen to be female, and love eachother. so why can't they get married and buy a little house together and have a family together? other countries already recognize gay marriage, i'd like to see the US on the front of social change here!!!!
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#17 Old 10-28-2003, 09:43 AM
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[

Gracie, many companies offer benefits to gay partners so long as they live together. I know my company does. It probably wouldn't hurt to check the policy at your partner's work.



I used to work for an employee benefits consulting firm and you'd be surprised how many companies DON'T offer benefits to gay partners. It's all about the bottom dollar--covering domestic partners costs the company more.



That's why I'd like to see gay marriages recognized by the powers that be--for things like health insurance, the right to make medical decisions, the right to be in the hospital with your partner when that person is sick, etc.
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#18 Old 10-28-2003, 10:51 AM
 
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Gracie, many companies offer benefits to gay partners so long as they live together. I know my company does. It probably wouldn't hurt to check the policy at your partner's work.



Here in Alabama, it's VERY rare for companies to offer domestic partner benefits. And the religious college where my partner teaches is certainly not on the forefront of gay right issues!



But I appreciate the suggestion.
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#19 Old 10-28-2003, 02:57 PM
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There's a lot of fans and a lot of human waste, shall we say, when it comes to this issue.



Personally, when it comes to the government and whether they choose to recognise gay marriage, I believe that the government should not recognise marriage. This includes heterosexuals. Marriage should be something that the government should keep their noses out of.



And as for the people, they should be able to mix and match any combination, with the only limit being their love. So basically, I think that heterosexuals should be able to be partners in life. I believe that homosexuals should be able to be partners in life, and if it works for three (or more) then they should be able to show commitment for each other.



I just don't think it is the government's business to dictate who we can or cannot love.
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#20 Old 10-28-2003, 04:16 PM
 
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I just don't think it is the government's business to dictate who we can or cannot love.



I couldn't agree more!
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#21 Old 10-28-2003, 04:49 PM
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I believe that the government should recognize gay marriages (whether the church should is a different issue for me). I believe all marriages should have the same rights, benefits. Gay married couples should be able to adopt just as hetero couples can, they should be able to visit each other in hospitals, health insurance, wills, the whole shebang!



I also feel that Gay marriages should have the same consequences as hetero marriages, meaning divorce, child support, alimony, the whole nine yards. If gay marriages get the same benefit they MUST have the same consequences. In this discussion I think that is a moot point, but I still felt it was an important one to bring up.



In my mind currently there are two kinds of marriages: the legal one and the spiritual one. The legal one is the one the government recognizes, the one you get the certificate or liscense to prove, the one that applies to your taxes. The spiritual one is the one involving religion, regardless of what that religion may be. Personally, I believe it is totally possible to have one without the other.
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#22 Old 10-28-2003, 04:58 PM
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Because I believe in the separation of church and state, I feel that it would be wrong for the government to force churches to recognize/perform same-sex marriages.



However, I absolutely, totally, 110% support the right of same-sex couples to marry. There are many non-religious people who have civil unions, secular marriages, and what-have-you.



I believe that regardless of gender, any people who wish to partner themselves should have the right to do so, and have the responsibilities, privileges, and potential consequences that come with a commitment of that nature.



I am totally against this whole "Marriage Protection Week" nonsense, and I support http://millionformarriage.org .

We see the world as "we" are, not as "it" is; because it is the "I" behind the "eye" that does the seeing.
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#23 Old 10-28-2003, 05:04 PM
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I am totally against this whole "Marriage Protection Week" nonsense



I agree. I feel I should be ashamed that my anniversary falls in that week because it may seem we married then to support it.
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#24 Old 10-28-2003, 05:13 PM
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I agree. I feel I should be ashamed that my anniversary falls in that week because it may seem we married then to support it.

oh my god. the ignorance.



everyone check out http://www.marriageprotectionweek.com/ and just read the horrible things there. of course i can't find a contact e-mail address to write to, or they would be getting a pretty nasty e-mail from me right now. :-(







my heart is pounding i'm so upset by this



OH I SEE..... I KNEW there was another reason why I hated this....



http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...031003-12.html
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#25 Old 10-28-2003, 05:20 PM
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bstutzma,



I can't look at stuff like that because it upsets me so much. So much hate...it's painful to read. ;-;



On the plus side, your celebration sounds wonderful, and it warms my heart to read about it! I'm so happy for you and your SO.

We see the world as "we" are, not as "it" is; because it is the "I" behind the "eye" that does the seeing.
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#26 Old 10-28-2003, 05:24 PM
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"NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim the week of October 12 through October 18, 2003, as Marriage Protection Week. I call upon the people of the United States to observe this week with appropriate programs, activities, and ceremonies.



IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this third day of October, in the year of our Lord two thousand three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-eighth.



GEORGE W. BUSH "



THE YEAR OF OUR LORD 2003???????????? Even at my catholic school we learned not to say AD or BC but to say CE and BCE!!!



thanks for the kind words, ceryna. It looks like i have a lot to make up for in my country.
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#27 Old 10-28-2003, 05:54 PM
 
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Marriage Protection Week? I don't understand. Is Bush going to outlaw TV shows like "Who Wants to Marry A Millionaire"? Surely that kind of crap is more demeaning to marriage than giving me & my partner the legal rights that heterosexuals have.
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#28 Old 10-28-2003, 05:57 PM
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Gracie,



I absolutely agree! Those shows are terribly degrading to the so-called "institution of marriage", and yet not even the fundamentalists are speaking out against them.



I still fail to understand why a same gender couple marrying would have any effect on a heterosexual couple. Why should they even care? It's not like they'd be harmed by it in any way.



It perturbs me.

We see the world as "we" are, not as "it" is; because it is the "I" behind the "eye" that does the seeing.
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#29 Old 10-28-2003, 06:03 PM
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This really made me mad. My (bisexual and Catholic) friend wrote an article in her (Christian) school's newspaper about this and pointing out how "Marriage Protection Week" also happens to be the same week as "Coming Out Week." Coincidence? The article was a bit controversial...





At any rate, the arguments in this are not even very intelligent.



One of the reasons why homosexual marriages are harmful:

"Lesbian women have a higher prevalence of cancer risk factors such as smoking, alcohol use, poor diet, and being overweight."

So it should be illegal??????????????



"But haven't studies shown that children raised by homosexual parents are no different from other children?

-No...

· Children of lesbians are less likely to conform to traditional gender norms.



· Children of lesbians are more likely to engage in homosexual behavior."

And this is bad?????????? Not by my standards!
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#30 Old 10-28-2003, 08:24 PM
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Gracie, I too agree 100%.



Marriage Protection Week. Bah, humbug!
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