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cinders7 06-10-2008 03:57 AM

I am flipping back and forth from being vegetarian to being vegan



I can't decide which is best.I know animals die if i eat eggs and diary,but also aware animals die to provde me veg, fruit etc Ie rabbits,deer,pigeon etc are culled to keep them from destroying crops and the compost, manure used is from animal by products.



I'd like opinions from vegans and vegetarians.

Duke Nukem 06-10-2008 05:14 AM

If you are unsure about going vegan then perhaps it isn't for you. There is no point trying to be something that deep down you are not. Its not about the badge, it is what you are comfortable with.



I'm vegetarian, its been easy to stay on the straight and narrow because I feel strongly about it. I do not have the same passion about turning vegan (respect to those that do have the passion) - but it doesn't stop me using, say, vegan soap, or avoiding leather, or at least reduce my use of dairy.



TTFN,

Jon

cinders7 06-10-2008 05:28 AM

Thank you duke.I'm the same all my products are free of animal by products and i 've cuts out diary due to food intolarance

Lentil Burger 06-10-2008 05:38 AM

Do what feels morally right for you. And remember that it's not either/or. You don't have to be 100% vegan to make a difference. If you feel you can't go all the way, then just try cutting down on dairy. Or try being vegan at home, and more flexible when eating elsewhere.



Yes, most aspects of modern life involve exploitation and suffering at some point in the production chain. But that doesn't mean we should just shrug our shoulders and do nothing. Simply see zero suffering as the goal, and move as close towards that goal as you feel able. And keep moving further towards it whenever you can.

cinders7 06-10-2008 05:46 AM

Good advice lentil burger thank you

Sangiovese 06-10-2008 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

. . remember that it's not either/or.



I feel this way too. Just do what comes natural for you. Whether Vegetarian or Vegan, or somewhere in between, we all have something in common - we all care. We have different priorities, different levels of passion about different things - but we all care.

That is what is truly important.

froggythefrog 06-10-2008 08:21 AM

Hmmmm.... One thing you might consider is that you're unlikely to never hurt an animal for your food. As someone suggested, you could plant a garden out back and you would minimize it that way. (It's also good localization.)



You hurt more animals by consuming animal products because it takes plants to feed animals, so you have the plant products you're consuming that hurt animals + the plant products the animal consumed that hurt animals + the animal itself. Make sense?



Veganism in itself is an aspiration. Very few of us are 100% vegan. (I am not talking about buying milk at the store here. I am talking about being 100% sure that every product in your house including the house itself is animal free.)

IamJen 06-10-2008 08:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinders7 View Post

I am flipping back and forth from being vegetarian to being vegan



I can't decide which is best.I know animals die if i eat eggs and diary,but also aware animals die to provde me veg, fruit etc Ie rabbits,deer,pigeon etc are culled to keep them from destroying crops and the compost, manure used is from animal by products.



I'd like opinions from vegans and vegetarians.



If this is your only argument, then it is a silly one. The animals killed in harvesting fruit/veg won't be spared by you eating eggs/dairy (unless that's all you plan to eat).

ajax13 06-10-2008 08:31 AM

The animals that die from crop production/protection are not killed to be used for food, and the mindset to use these animals as food is not there. Yes, there are still animal deaths, and I'm not going to pretend that this doesn't trouble me. I hope that there will be progress to reduce these incidental deaths.



What I think is very important here, is that the attitude to exploit animals is not present when we're farming crops or gardening.

Sevenseas 06-10-2008 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post

The animals that die from crop production/protection are not killed to be used for food, and the mindset to use these animals as food is not there. Yes, there are still animal deaths, and I'm not going to pretend that this doesn't trouble me. I hope that there will be progress to reduce these incidental deaths.



What I think is very important here, is that the attitude to exploit animals is not present when we're farming crops or gardening.


Lentil Burger 06-10-2008 08:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post

The animals that die from crop production/protection are not killed to be used for food, and the mindset to use these animals as food is not there. Yes, there are still animal deaths, and I'm not going to pretend that this doesn't trouble me. I hope that there will be progress to reduce these incidental deaths.



What I think is very important here, is that the attitude to exploit animals is not present when we're farming crops or gardening.

I take your point, but if we were talking about humans, would we be so dismissive of people being killed as an unintentional side-affect of a production process?

froggythefrog 06-10-2008 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

I take your point, but if we were talking about humans, would we be so dismissive of people being killed as an unintentional side-affect of a production process?



No, but we would be adverse towards an alternative that kills twice as many humans instead.

cinders7 06-10-2008 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

If this is your only argument, then it is a silly one. The animals killed in harvesting fruit/veg won't be spared by you eating eggs/dairy (unless that's all you plan to eat).





I have no arguement i just want to make my mind up.Hearing peoples views on both side is giving me food for thought.

codemonkey 06-10-2008 09:22 AM

Always do the best you can. If continuing to eat eggs and dairy is the best you can do right now, then do that. Once you get comfortable with that, you can try to do a little better. Maybe you could work towards making your meals at home vegan and not stress about ingredients when you go out. Once you're comfortable with that, you can start focusing on those meals out. Just keep progressing and improving.

synergy 06-10-2008 09:24 AM

I think that in terms of A/R and the environment, a vegan diet is the best one, but sometimes there are other, more selfish factors that come into it.



For myself, I choose a lacto -ovo diet that is about 90-95% vegan.



This keeps me from obsessing about food too much, which is dangerous for me, but I don't constantly eat eggs and dairy, which would riddle me with guilt, and put too much crap into my diet.

troub 06-10-2008 09:25 AM

Thought I would throw in that it might go beyond animal pain and suffering as well.

The dairy industry is one of the most harmful on the environment.

According to the China Study dairy is very bad for one's health as well.



But do what you can, and always strive forward.

I was lacto for 7 years before going vegan, and i still have a long way to go. The journey lasts a lifetime.

ajax13 06-10-2008 09:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

I take your point, but if we were talking about humans, would we be so dismissive of people being killed as an unintentional side-affect of a production process?



Which is why I wrote that I am troubled by incidental deaths. And I sincerely hope progress is made to reduce, and one day eliminate, these deaths.



I quite honestly don't know enough about farming to offer any suggestions. Since we can't, in any clear sense, negotiate with most non-humans I admit that this situation presents quite a challenge.

AutomaticMan 06-10-2008 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinders7 View Post

I am flipping back and forth from being vegetarian to being vegan



I can't decide which is best.I know animals die if i eat eggs and diary,but also aware animals die to provde me veg, fruit etc Ie rabbits,deer,pigeon etc are culled to keep them from destroying crops and the compost, manure used is from animal by products.



I'd like opinions from vegans and vegetarians.



Surely, under any ethical theory, if you're concerned about killing animals, and there is a means to reduce the number of animals you kill, then you would endeavour to reduce the number (in this case, by going vegan).



But it's not just the killing. Exploiting sentient beings is immoral, if you agree with that, then you must make a stand in your every life to protest the mindset that promotes nonhuman animal exploitation (speciesism). Veganism is the way of living your ethical boycott of products of animal slavery. It's a stance firmly rooted in opposition to those that believe it's morally acceptable to enslave nonhuman animals. If you believe in animal rights, then you cannot go about your live deliberately violating said rights every time you sit down and eat.



Mainstream agriculture has many issues, but aside from that, we all kill animals accidentally. That is no justification for killing them on purpose. That kind of logic would justify me mowing down people in a car because lots of people get run over by cars every day.



If you are trully concerned about the effects mainstream agriculture has on nonhumans (and the environment), try growing your own food in a veganic fashion. It may not feed you completely, but it's a start.

cinders7 06-10-2008 09:40 AM

Thank you automatic man.I have started growing fruit and veg in my garden with this image of being self sufficientish.Its slow going,but hope to acheive something.I value your opinion

Libera Mentis 06-10-2008 10:55 AM

I don't have the will to go vegan yet, so I've started buying humane milk/eggs and only eating dairy/eggs at home. There's a couple farms in Texas that have been checked out and verified as humane by, I'll have to find the site.



Maybe that's an option if you live in a rural area?

Irizary 06-10-2008 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libera Mentis View Post

I don't have the will to go vegan yet, so I've started buying humane milk/eggs and only eating dairy/eggs at home. There's a couple farms in Texas that have been checked out and verified as humane by, I'll have to find the site.



How can it ever be considered humane to forcibly and permanently remove a calf from his or her mother on the day of, or within days, of birth?



Check out your farms, that's their practice.

rabid_child 06-10-2008 11:08 AM

As someone else said, it doesn't have to be black or white with vegetarian/vegan. My diet is very largely vegan, and I won't sit down to a plate of eggs or a piece of cheese pizza, but I don't sweat whether the bread I got in a restaurant contains whey, or whether this vitamin D might be the "Dreaded" D3. If I accidentally eat something with a good amount of cow's dairy though it upsets my digestion considerably.

I'm perfectly comfortable with my decision. I can't see myself ever being a vegan, but I don't feel like I need to be either.

RoboMonkey 06-10-2008 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajax13 View Post

Which is why I wrote that I am troubled by incidental deaths. And I sincerely hope progress is made to reduce, and one day eliminate, these deaths.



I quite honestly don't know enough about farming to offer any suggestions. Since we can't, in any clear sense, negotiate with most non-humans I admit that this situation presents quite a challenge.



I doubt any significant thought will be given to this issue unless the majority of people eventually agree that killing/exploiting animals is wrong.

Sangiovese 06-10-2008 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

How can it ever be considered humane to forcibly and permanently remove a calf from his or her mother on the day of, or within days, of birth?



Check out your farms, that's their practice.



There are farms that do not separate the calf from it's mother. (My grandfather's farm, for one.) It's good to go visit them and see what they actually do.



I've never been a milk drinker myself. Why? Because I used to have to clean the buckets that were used for milking. Unbelievably gross.

ajax13 06-10-2008 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMonkey View Post

I doubt any significant thought will be given to this issue unless the majority of people eventually agree that killing/exploiting animals is wrong.



You make a good point. Because most people who farm crops and garden are probably not very troubled by accidental animal deaths.

pandora9kry 06-10-2008 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

If this is your only argument, then it is a silly one. The animals killed in harvesting fruit/veg won't be spared by you eating eggs/dairy (unless that's all you plan to eat).



Whether or not you believe it's a "silly" argument, at least cinders7 has taken those animals (the ones killed in fruit/veggie harvesting) into account, which a lot of vegans like to ignore. Reducing animal suffering through one's diet is wonderful, and veg*ns of any type certainly do that. I applaud all veg*ns in this regard.



Whatever you decide to do, cinders7, you are making a difference. And do what's right for you. I'm a vegetarian, and I know that being vegan is not something I am comfortable with. I'm totally okay with that.

RoboMonkey 06-10-2008 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandora9kry View Post

Whether or not you believe it's a "silly" argument, at least cinders7 has taken those animals (the ones killed in fruit/veggie harvesting) into account, which a lot of vegans like to ignore.



That is a silly argument. Cinders fails to take into account all the animals that will die in the process of making food for the cows/hens producing the milk/eggs.

SomebodyElse 06-10-2008 04:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandora9kry View Post

...which a lot of vegans like to ignore.

I don't know any vegans who either ignore it, or like to ignore it. That's a very unfair statement.

Libera Mentis 06-10-2008 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

How can it ever be considered humane to forcibly and permanently remove a calf from his or her mother on the day of, or within days, of birth?



Check out your farms, that's their practice.



As stated before, not all do.



Try driving from say... San Antonio to Houston, I'm pretty sure there's a few milk farms that way. You see grazing cows, and tons of calves. It's one of the only things that makes traveling around Texas fun.



Now, I can't vouch for what happens to them after that grazing part of their lives, so that is a valid concern.

RoboMonkey 06-10-2008 05:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libera Mentis View Post

As stated before, not all do.



Try driving from say... San Antonio to Houston, I'm pretty sure there's a few milk farms that way. You see grazing cows, and tons of calves. It's one of the only things that makes traveling around Texas fun.



Now, I can't vouch for what happens to them after that grazing part of their lives, so that is a valid concern.



Being pregnant constantly reduces a cow's lifespan from about 24 years to 8 years.


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