Vegan Vs vegetarian - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 06-14-2008, 05:00 AM
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Animal rights i'm assuming
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#62 Old 06-14-2008, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by paulwalkersgirl View Post

What? Really?? Where'd you hear that?



Regarding reducing a cows lifespan from 24 to 8 years, I would think maybe the cows productive milking years begin to drop at that point so she's shipped to slaughter.
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#63 Old 06-14-2008, 05:31 PM
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8 years is I believe for those lucky enough to be rescued from slaughter. Most mothers are sent to slaughter at 5 years old, a large percentage of which are pregnant at the time.



http://www.vegansociety.com/animals/.../dairy_cow.php
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#64 Old 06-14-2008, 09:29 PM
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I've yet to actually meet a "bragging non-vegan vegetarian". Are they that common?



Where does that stereotype come from? Is it just a case of a vocal minority or is it that I haven't been around enough to realize it's more significant than that? The second certain people find out I'm vegetarian, they get defensive and start acting like I'm one of those types automatically. It really comes out of the blue. What am I missing?
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#65 Old 06-15-2008, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

Saying that someone is using "empty rhetoric" isn't being "obnoxious and insulting", just critical.

It is if you insist on pursuing the point when simply agreeing to differ would be sufficient. And given the nature of the discussion, "empty rhetoric" is extremely OTT, and therefore in context, obnoxious and insulting.
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#66 Old 06-15-2008, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Yeah my point was just that labels like "black & white" or "absolutist" etc. do not really contribute much to discussion, because they're, well, just rhetoric. They are subjective impressions about someone's views, not actual arguments against those views.

But to suggest that any ethical behavior is "the" way is clearly an absolute statement, and clearly moral in nature. A moral absolute. I'm not arguing against veganism, so I don't see why my statement should be expected to form an "argument against those views"?
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#67 Old 06-15-2008, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

But to suggest that any ethical behavior is "the" way is clearly an absolute statement, and clearly moral in nature. A moral absolute. I'm not arguing against veganism, so I don't see why my statement should be expected to form an "argument against those views"?

1. I did not say "this form of behaviour is the way", I said "this form of behaviour is the way to conform to these moral values".

2. I think whenever anyone expresses a moral value with commitment and sincerity, he/she is saying that that particular value is a part of "the way" to live. To that extent, all moral values are "absolutist" and thus to call a moral view absolutist is redundant.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#68 Old 06-15-2008, 09:26 AM
 
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LB, your insistence that because someone refuses to "agree to disagree" means that they're being unfair/hostile/insulting, etc. is simply untrue. People don't *have* to agree. You may not like it, but dems the rules at Veggieboards (and yea, in much of life).



That said, I have little invested in this thread, so I'll make my escape.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#69 Old 06-17-2008, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinders7 View Post

I am flipping back and forth from being vegetarian to being vegan



I can't decide which is best.I know animals die if i eat eggs and diary,but also aware animals die to provde me veg, fruit etc Ie rabbits,deer,pigeon etc are culled to keep them from destroying crops and the compost, manure used is from animal by products.



I'd like opinions from vegans and vegetarians.



Other animals are hardly effected from organic gardens which don't expand much at this point in time.



As for dairy, the entire industry thrives on keeping the animals alive so that they may produce dairy products for us, I'm not saying they suffer any less, they just don't die as a direct result of laying eggs or giving milk.



I apologize for probably not helping in your pursuit of opinions, but I'm just providing additional information for you.
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#70 Old 06-18-2008, 08:30 AM
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Some things never change.
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#71 Old 06-18-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxe View Post

I wouldn't be happy just being vegetarian.



To be honest I get a little annoyed at certain vegetarians I know who preach about not eating meat, but then are happy to stuff themselves with the poor animal's labour like (eggs and milk, etc), and its body parts (pate and liver, etc) and carry their purses in a dead animal skin and wear the skin of dead animal on their feet



There's vegetarians who eat liver?
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#72 Old 06-18-2008, 03:31 PM
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And virgins who have sex.
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#73 Old 06-18-2008, 04:54 PM
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meatless!
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#74 Old 06-18-2008, 05:58 PM
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Hi wolfie!
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#75 Old 06-18-2008, 06:38 PM
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Some things never change.



Hey meatless Welcome back
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#76 Old 06-19-2008, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

LB, your insistence that because someone refuses to "agree to disagree" means that they're being unfair/hostile/insulting, etc. is simply untrue. People don't *have* to agree.

I'm sorry, but you're misrepresenting my opinion. I have no problem with people disagreeing... it's the tone in which such opinions are expressed that's the important thing. If you'd bothered to read my posts, you'd have noted that I'd already implied that our difference was simply a matter of perspective... or in other words, agreed to differ:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

A matter of perspective, I suppose.

Rather than take the opportunity to simply accept a civil divergence of opinion, SS then followed up with an entirely unnecessary...



Quote:
Originally Posted by SS View Post

Or a matter of you using empty rhetoric.

Please don't hold me accountable for someone else's inability to agree to differ and then characterise it as my intolerance of other opinions. I'd already indicated that I was quite happy to accept that our different interpretations were simply down to differing world-views.
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#77 Old 06-19-2008, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

1. I did not say "this form of behaviour is the way", I said "this form of behaviour is the way to conform to these moral values".

Which is still an absolutist position, IMHO.



Quote:
2. I think whenever anyone expresses a moral value with commitment and sincerity, he/she is saying that that particular value is a part of "the way" to live. To that extent, all moral values are "absolutist" and thus to call a moral view absolutist is redundant.

I disagree. Many moral values are flexible, accepting that life is simply not that black and white. A moral value is not intrinsically inflexible and absolute.



Either way, I'm happy to accept that we hold differing opinions on the matter, and it would be nice if you could simply accept the same without needing to resort to insulting turns of phrase such as "empty rhetoric".
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#78 Old 06-19-2008, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

Which is still an absolutist position, IMHO.



I disagree. Many moral values are flexible, accepting that life is simply not that black and white. A moral value is not intrinsically inflexible and absolute.



Either way, I'm happy to accept that we hold differing opinions on the matter, and it would be nice if you could simply accept the same without needing to resort to insulting turns of phrase such as "empty rhetoric".

I most certainly accept that we hold different opinions: I never said you have the same opinion as I do. One of my opinions is that our disagreement is not merely due to different values or "perspective", but due maybe to different semantics (your definition of 'absolute') and to you using what I see as empty rhetoric. I'm happy to agree to disagree about these opinions of mine.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#79 Old 06-20-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I most certainly accept that we hold different opinions: I never said you have the same opinion as I do. One of my opinions is that our disagreement is not merely due to different values or "perspective", but due maybe to different semantics (your definition of 'absolute') and to you using what I see as empty rhetoric. I'm happy to agree to disagree about these opinions of mine.

"Empty rhetoric" is an extremely loaded turn of phrase, and quite provocative. I could refer to your opinions as "vacuous extremism", but I recognise that whilst I have the right to such an opinion, expressing it in such a fashion would be confrontational and unhelpful. It's not always about what you think - it's how you put those thoughts across. We'd already established that our opinions differed, and using the term "empty rhetoric" was unnecessary at that point.
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#80 Old 06-20-2008, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

I could refer to your opinions as "vacuous extremism", but I recognise that whilst I have the right to such an opinion, expressing it in such a fashion would be confrontational and unhelpful.

I think you're welcome to refer to them in that way I will just hold that using the word 'extermism' in that kind of context will be more empty rhetoric

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#81 Old 06-22-2008, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think you're welcome to refer to them in that way I will just hold that using the word 'extermism' in that kind of context will be more empty rhetoric

Whilst I'll hold that referring to divergent opinions as "empty rhetoric" is vacuous extremism.



See why that kind of language is a bad idea? Doesn't really achieve anything, and just keeps going round in circles.
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#82 Old 06-23-2008, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post


See why that kind of language is a bad idea? Doesn't really achieve anything, and just keeps going round in circles.

Well I've always loved merry-go-rounds.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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