Vegan Vs vegetarian - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 Old 06-10-2008, 05:24 PM
Beginner
 
Sangiovese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMonkey View Post

Being pregnant constantly reduces a cow's lifespan from about 24 years to 8 years.



Correct. And true humane farms don't do that either.
Sangiovese is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 Old 06-10-2008, 07:24 PM
Veggie Regular
 
pandora9kry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMonkey View Post

That is a silly argument. Cinders fails to take into account all the animals that will die in the process of making food for the cows/hens producing the milk/eggs.



But you are not Cinders, and you have not had their experiences. So maybe to Cinders, it is not silly. You can't really make that judgement.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

I don't know any vegans who either ignore it, or like to ignore it. That's a very unfair statement.



My apologies, I didn't mean to seem rude or unfairly judgemental. But a lot o the vegans I know personally seem to think they live a cruelty-free lifestyle, which is not the case. It is very close, and I commend vegans for their diligence and commitment, but it is not 100% cruelty-free.
pandora9kry is offline  
#33 Old 06-10-2008, 09:27 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Irizary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by um whatever View Post

There are farms that do not separate the calf from it's mother. (My grandfather's farm, for one.) It's good to go visit them and see what they actually do.



Is this farm still in existence? Is it a commercial farm?



Please give very specific contact info about this farm (which you should be able to do if it's a commercial farm). I will check it out.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

Every animal you eat
was running for her life

Irizary is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#34 Old 06-10-2008, 09:33 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Irizary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libera Mentis View Post

As stated before, not all do.



Try driving from say... San Antonio to Houston, I'm pretty sure there's a few milk farms that way. You see grazing cows, and tons of calves. It's one of the only things that makes traveling around Texas fun.



Now, I can't vouch for what happens to them after that grazing part of their lives, so that is a valid concern.



Are you sure they're dairy farms, or are they being farmed for their flesh (in which case they can stay together until they're trucked off to slaughter)?



"I'm pretty sure" doesn't cut it.



Please provide the specific contact info of a commercial dairy farm in which this is not done, before you make that claim. There may be a Hare Krishna one that doesn't remove them (but still slaughters them), but I assure you, anything like this is not common, and you will not find these products in regular stores.



I've talked to many small, family-farm, free-range, organic, etc. dairies and this is common practice. I think the burden is on people who insist that they are finding dairy in which this is not the case to provide contact info (which shouldn't be hard to do) for dairy farms that do not do this.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

Every animal you eat
was running for her life

Irizary is offline  
#35 Old 06-11-2008, 02:05 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutomaticMan View Post

Veganism is the way of living your ethical boycott of products of animal slavery.

To suggest that anything is "the" way is simplistic. Life is far more complex than that. Veganism is extremely laudable and has a strong moral consistency... but it is not "the" way. It is "a" way. What's more ethical? Eating food that's been grown as a cash crop in Africa (causing starvation and environmental destruction), then flown half way round the world, packed in plastic and driven thousands of miles to your local shop - or eating a locally caught fish?



Granted, the ideal solution in this situation is to eat locally sourced vegan food, then you can have the best of both worlds. This isn't intended as an argument against veganism (which I fully support) - just illustrating that veganism isn't the whole picture.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#36 Old 06-11-2008, 04:19 AM
Veggie Regular
 
cinders7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 556
Thank you for your comments.I still fairly new to veganism,and fully aware its not cruelty free.I know areas are being destroyed which destroys animals to provide soya and such like, but don't know enough to comment.I'm interested in being as cruelty free as possible,by growing my own, foraging and buying local while suppling me with all i need.I'm experimenting with herbs in my garden to make cleaning products such as disinfectants for my home.I have a long way to go,and don't want to go about it with my eyes shut.My ideal life is to be self sufficient.



I will continue to strive towards being vegan
cinders7 is offline  
#37 Old 06-11-2008, 06:09 AM
Veggie Regular
 
AutomaticMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

To suggest that anything is "the" way is simplistic. Life is far more complex than that. Veganism is extremely laudable and has a strong moral consistency... but it is not "the" way. It is "a" way. What's more ethical? Eating food that's been grown as a cash crop in Africa (causing starvation and environmental destruction), then flown half way round the world, packed in plastic and driven thousands of miles to your local shop - or eating a locally caught fish?



Granted, the ideal solution in this situation is to eat locally sourced vegan food, then you can have the best of both worlds. This isn't intended as an argument against veganism (which I fully support) - just illustrating that veganism isn't the whole picture.



Well, I was talking about animal slavery, specifically nonhuman animal slavery. I'm well aware there are other concerns about consumption (fair trade, environmental issues etc) but wrt animal liberation, veganism is /the/ way. Of course, all the issues are connected, and one cannot really support one without supporting the others. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.
AutomaticMan is offline  
#38 Old 06-11-2008, 06:38 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutomaticMan View Post

Well, I was talking about animal slavery, specifically nonhuman animal slavery. I'm well aware there are other concerns about consumption (fair trade, environmental issues etc) but wrt animal liberation, veganism is /the/ way. Of course, all the issues are connected, and one cannot really support one without supporting the others. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

I still don't agree that it's "the" way - more a step on the path.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#39 Old 06-11-2008, 08:07 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Veganism isn't "the way", but it is the necessary condition for expressing AR in your life.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#40 Old 06-11-2008, 08:32 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Veganism isn't "the way", but it is the necessary condition for expressing AR in your life.

That's a better way of expressing it, but still a little too absolute for my liking.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#41 Old 06-11-2008, 08:59 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Well that depends on one's view about exploitation.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#42 Old 06-11-2008, 09:07 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Well that depends on one's view about exploitation.

Well no, I think it rather depends on whether you believe in the notion of moral absolutes. I suspect this could become a rather convoluted discussion though, so maybe we should just agree to differ.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#43 Old 06-11-2008, 09:19 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
In my view, talk of "moral absolutes" is not much more than rhetoric.



For some people, the most central issue is that we should change our commodifying attitude towards non-humans. The fish one kills from a local lake is exploited and commodified, whereas the animals harmed by shipping some product from overseas are not.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#44 Old 06-11-2008, 09:29 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

In my view, talk of "moral absolutes" is not much more than rhetoric.

How do you mean?



Quote:
For some people, the most central issue is that we should change our commodifying attitude towards non-humans. The fish one kills from a local lake is exploited and commodified, whereas the animals harmed by shipping some product from overseas are not.

I guess that's where we differ. I don't see that as the central issue... I see it as one aspect of a whole range of changes that humans need to make to the way we live.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#45 Old 06-11-2008, 09:41 AM
Veggie Regular
 
rainforests1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinders7 View Post

but also aware animals die to provde me veg, fruit etc Ie rabbits,deer,pigeon etc are culled to keep them from destroying crops and the compost, manure used is from animal by products.

I haven't read much about this. Could you go into more detail or give a link to articles that do?
rainforests1 is offline  
#46 Old 06-11-2008, 10:28 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post

How do you mean?

I mean that to the extent that an expression like "a moral absolute" has some actual meaning, it means a moral norm that applies in all imaginable circumstances, universally. Saying that veganism is "the" expression of AR, or that it is a necessary condition for AR, is not a moral absolute in this sense.



Quote:
I guess that's where we differ. I don't see that as the central issue... I see it as one aspect of a whole range of changes that humans need to make to the way we live.

I don't see exploitation as the only aspect to take into consideration, either. I just see it as the most important one. But yes, this is where we differ.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#47 Old 06-11-2008, 01:52 PM
 
IamJen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandora9kry View Post

Whether or not you believe it's a "silly" argument, at least cinders7 has taken those animals (the ones killed in fruit/veggie harvesting) into account, which a lot of vegans like to ignore. Reducing animal suffering through one's diet is wonderful, and veg*ns of any type certainly do that. I applaud all veg*ns in this regard.



Whatever you decide to do, cinders7, you are making a difference. And do what's right for you. I'm a vegetarian, and I know that being vegan is not something I am comfortable with. I'm totally okay with that.

Please don't misunderstand. The silly part is not the consideration of the animals killed during harvest, etc. It's that those animals would likely still be killed if she were a lacto/ovo vegetarian (since she would likely continue to consume plant products). My criticism was wrt her logic, not her compassion.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
IamJen is offline  
#48 Old 06-11-2008, 04:36 PM
Newbie
 
thalestral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by froggythefrog View Post

You hurt more animals by consuming animal products because it takes plants to feed animals, so you have the plant products you're consuming that hurt animals + the plant products the animal consumed that hurt animals + the animal itself. Make sense?







"It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh. According to the USDA and the United Nations, using an acre of land to raise cattle for slaughter yields 20 pounds of usable protein. That same acre would yield 356 pounds of protein if soybeans were grown insteadmore than 17 times as much!" - http://www.earthoria.com/global-hung...-can-feed.html



By eating a vegan diet which requires no animals to be farmed, far less land is used agriculturally to feed you - this means less wild animals harmed in the process.
thalestral is offline  
#49 Old 06-11-2008, 04:48 PM
Newbie
 
meganmetz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1
Go vegan. I live near one of the large egg producers. It is grim to say the least. And all of the egg producers, even the small ones, get rid of the male chicks b/c there is no use for them. And I have personally questioned several free range farmers and many of them give the hens to other large scale farms or to slaughterhouses when they are done with them. So it's all bad, if you ask me. Unless you have your own hens who are lifetime loved pets and who happen to lay eggs, just say no to eggs altogether. If you need convincing on the dairy issue, visit www.notmilk.com. There's enough there to keep you away from dairy for a million lifetimes ; )
meganmetz is offline  
#50 Old 06-11-2008, 05:14 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Savannah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,908
here at home in NJ we have neighbors that do indeed have their own hens that are pets and they do eat their eggs. if i take an egg from them i don't feel like I am exploiting a hen because those hens will never be destroyed. they will be cared for until they pass away from old age or whatever.



i sent an email not long ago to an organic dairy farmer and asked him what became of his cows at the end of their productive years and also what became of the male calfs. he was very straightforward and said that he felt he treated his cows very humanely at his farm because they weren't penned in and grazed, etc., but he admitted that they end up being sold at auctions and end up as food somewhere. he said he didn't like it but it was his economic reality and that he sympathized with my perspective. but for commercial dairies like his, there's no choice. so the only way to not support that practice is to use as little dairy as possible (or no dairy if you can.) i guess if my friend's family had a cow i would feel alright about milk from their cow, but they don't.
Savannah is offline  
#51 Old 06-11-2008, 06:16 PM
Veggie Regular
 
RoboMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 944
If you buy pet hens/cows that is still contributing to the problem. For every pet you buy one animal had to die.



I think adoption is okay though.
RoboMonkey is offline  
#52 Old 06-12-2008, 03:43 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I mean that to the extent that an expression like "a moral absolute" has some actual meaning, it means a moral norm that applies in all imaginable circumstances, universally.

All reasonably imaginable circumstances relating to that particular moral code, yes.



Quote:
Saying that veganism is "the" expression of AR, or that it is a necessary condition for AR, is not a moral absolute in this sense.

Sounds it to me. A matter of perspective, I suppose.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#53 Old 06-12-2008, 05:58 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger View Post


Sounds it to me. A matter of perspective, I suppose.

Or a matter of you using empty rhetoric.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#54 Old 06-13-2008, 04:58 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lentil Burger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Or a matter of you using empty rhetoric.

Personally, I'm quite happy to accept that we simply have different perspectives and opinions on this issue. It's a shame that you seem to feel it necessary to continue in your usual obnoxious and insulting vein, rather than simply agreeing to differ.
Lentil Burger is offline  
#55 Old 06-13-2008, 12:44 PM
 
IamJen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,134
Saying that someone is using "empty rhetoric" isn't being "obnoxious and insulting", just critical.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
IamJen is offline  
#56 Old 06-13-2008, 08:27 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Yeah my point was just that labels like "black & white" or "absolutist" etc. do not really contribute much to discussion, because they're, well, just rhetoric. They are subjective impressions about someone's views, not actual arguments against those views.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#57 Old 06-13-2008, 09:00 PM
Beginner
 
Luxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 104
I wouldn't be happy just being vegetarian.



To be honest I get a little annoyed at certain vegetarians I know who preach about not eating meat, but then are happy to stuff themselves with the poor animal's labour like (eggs and milk, etc), and its body parts (pate and liver, etc) and carry their purses in a dead animal skin and wear the skin of dead animal on their feet

ÂOur prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. Dalai Lama
Luxe is offline  
#58 Old 06-14-2008, 03:01 AM
Vegan Police Officer
 
Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxe View Post


To be honest I get a little annoyed at certain vegetarians I know who preach about not eating meat, but then are happy to stuff themselves with the poor animal's labour like (eggs and milk, etc), and its body parts (pate and liver, etc) and carry their purses in a dead animal skin and wear the skin of dead animal on their feet



Tell me about it....



I don't get a little bit annoyed. I have in fact little respect for these people at all. I prefer hanging out with omnivores.
Diana is offline  
#59 Old 06-14-2008, 04:16 AM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMonkey View Post

Being pregnant constantly reduces a cow's lifespan from about 24 years to 8 years.



What? Really?? Where'd you hear that?
GhostUser is offline  
#60 Old 06-14-2008, 04:23 AM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Veganism isn't "the way", but it is the necessary condition for expressing AR in your life.



sorry for my ignorance, seven! what does AR stand for?
GhostUser is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off