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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz 
I understand now. We have been misinterpreting Lentil Burger when we hear the word "majority of people" and "how the majority think". We have been assuming Lentil Burger means "the larger number of human beings" when they actually mean this...
I understand now. We have been misinterpreting Lentil Burger when we hear the word "majority of people" and "how the majority think". We have been assuming Lentil Burger means "the larger number of human beings" when they actually mean this...
Oh, grow up. If you can't form a reasonable, coherent, intelligent argument, without resorting to childish insults, then you're pretty much demonstrated the idiocy of your position. Clearly you find the definitive dictionary definition of rape pretty hard to argue with, so I suppose I should sympathise with your need to descend into petty insults.
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Lentil Burger knows full well that both Swedish law and the majority (greater number of people) agree forced sex is rape.
Indeed. And I don't recall disagreeing with that at any point.
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Obviously they are insisting that it's only the majority (greater in terms of status or intellect, superior) person that disbelieves that forces, non-penile sex, is rape.
Is the dictionary definition too complex for you to understand? Given that you're the one resorting to personal insults, it's a little rich of you to accuse me of holding a superior attitude.
It never ceases to amaze me that people are incapable of disagreeing with one another on internet forums without discussions becoming personal and nasty as soon as one person proves incapable of backing up their position with logic and reason. You disagree with me... that's fine. Why the insults? We both agree that all forms of sexual assault are extremely serious and traumatic, so why do you feel the need to drag the discussion into the gutter?
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Veggie Regular
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
Why the insults?
Why the insults?
Maybe because your manner of disagreeing with people is extremely condescending and passive-aggressive?
Don't start crying if people give you what you ask.
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
Maybe because your manner of disagreeing with people is extremely condescending and passive-aggressive?
Maybe because your manner of disagreeing with people is extremely condescending and passive-aggressive?
Ah, psycho-babble to justify you rude attitude. Priceless.
Quote:
Don't start crying if people give you what you ask.
Do you come here just to find new people to fall out with? I suppose it must be a little easier that real-life rejection.
I understand that you have difficulty defending your point of view rationally, but as I've said before, childish name-calling simply undermines your argument. I know it's a stretch, but do you fancy debating this point politely and respectfully, or is such reasonable behaviour entirely beyond you?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
Ah, psycho-babble to justify you rude attitude. Priceless.
Do you come here just to find new people to fall out with? I suppose it must be a little easier that real-life rejection.
I understand that you have difficulty defending your point of view rationally, but as I've said before, childish name-calling simply undermines your argument. I know it's a stretch, but do you fancy debating this point politely and respectfully, or is such reasonable behaviour entirely beyond you?
Ah, psycho-babble to justify you rude attitude. Priceless.
Do you come here just to find new people to fall out with? I suppose it must be a little easier that real-life rejection.
I understand that you have difficulty defending your point of view rationally, but as I've said before, childish name-calling simply undermines your argument. I know it's a stretch, but do you fancy debating this point politely and respectfully, or is such reasonable behaviour entirely beyond you?
What exactly about your posts (especially the most recent ones) is respectful and polite? You have been insulting people left and right!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gillibean
What exactly about your posts (especially the most recent ones) is respectful and polite? You have been insulting people left and right!
What exactly about your posts (especially the most recent ones) is respectful and polite? You have been insulting people left and right!
That's what they call responding in kind. As soon as anyone wants to resume a polite and friendly discussion, I'll be happy to oblige. There's no reason to insult people simply because you disagree with them - especially when you agree on the most important principles, that all forms of rape and sexual abuse/assault are profoundly wrong and should be treated with the utmost seriousness.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Maybe because your manner of disagreeing with people is extremely condescending and passive-aggressive?
Maybe because your manner of disagreeing with people is extremely condescending and passive-aggressive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
Ah, psycho-babble to justify you rude attitude. Priceless.
Do you come here just to find new people to fall out with? I suppose it must be a little easier that real-life rejection.
I understand that you have difficulty defending your point of view rationally, but as I've said before, childish name-calling simply undermines your argument. I know it's a stretch, but do you fancy debating this point politely and respectfully, or is such reasonable behaviour entirely beyond you?
Ah, psycho-babble to justify you rude attitude. Priceless.
Do you come here just to find new people to fall out with? I suppose it must be a little easier that real-life rejection.
I understand that you have difficulty defending your point of view rationally, but as I've said before, childish name-calling simply undermines your argument. I know it's a stretch, but do you fancy debating this point politely and respectfully, or is such reasonable behaviour entirely beyond you?
q.e.d.
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
q.e.d.
q.e.d.
I've repeatedly offered to discuss the issue politely and reasonably. You're not interested in doing so. Go figure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
Oh, grow up. If you can't form a reasonable, coherent, intelligent argument, without resorting to childish insults, then you're pretty much demonstrated the idiocy of your position. Clearly you find the definitive dictionary definition of rape pretty hard to argue with, so I suppose I should sympathise with your need to descend into petty insults.
Indeed. And I don't recall disagreeing with that at any point.
Is the dictionary definition too complex for you to understand? Given that you're the one resorting to personal insults, it's a little rich of you to accuse me of holding a superior attitude.
It never ceases to amaze me that people are incapable of disagreeing with one another on internet forums without discussions becoming personal and nasty as soon as one person proves incapable of backing up their position with logic and reason. You disagree with me... that's fine. Why the insults? We both agree that all forms of sexual assault are extremely serious and traumatic, so why do you feel the need to drag the discussion into the gutter?
Oh, grow up. If you can't form a reasonable, coherent, intelligent argument, without resorting to childish insults, then you're pretty much demonstrated the idiocy of your position. Clearly you find the definitive dictionary definition of rape pretty hard to argue with, so I suppose I should sympathise with your need to descend into petty insults.
Indeed. And I don't recall disagreeing with that at any point.
Is the dictionary definition too complex for you to understand? Given that you're the one resorting to personal insults, it's a little rich of you to accuse me of holding a superior attitude.
It never ceases to amaze me that people are incapable of disagreeing with one another on internet forums without discussions becoming personal and nasty as soon as one person proves incapable of backing up their position with logic and reason. You disagree with me... that's fine. Why the insults? We both agree that all forms of sexual assault are extremely serious and traumatic, so why do you feel the need to drag the discussion into the gutter?
Pot meet kettle. Kettle, this is the pot, how do you do?
You've met with rudeness, yes, but that's what you put out there first, so don't be surprised when you get it back. These things go both way, hon, you can't start by being dismissive and condescending and then go all wide-eyed innocent when you get it back.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz
Pot meet kettle. Kettle, this is the pot, how do you do?
Pot meet kettle. Kettle, this is the pot, how do you do?
I see the level of maturity and civility has little chance of increasing then. I've repeatedly suggested polite and friendly discussion, but name-calling appears to be preferable to raising the tone of debate. Sad, but unsurprising.
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You've met with rudeness, yes, but that's what you put out there first
Where? Can you point me towards a post where I was rude without provocation please?
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These things go both way, hon, you can't start by being dismissive and condescending and then go all wide-eyed innocent when you get it back
How is it dismissive and condescending to disagree with someone's point of view? I don't recall insulting anyone, calling anyone names, or sneering at anyone. What I did do was argue a point of view strongly. Are you suggesting that people shouldn't post points of view that you disagree with?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
calling anyone names,
calling anyone names,
No one has called you names, either. Or if you think someone has, please provide a quote.
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
No one has called you names, either. Or if you think someone has, please provide a quote.
No one has called you names, either. Or if you think someone has, please provide a quote.
"Condescending" and "passive-aggressive" spring to mind.
Third time of asking... would you like to continue this debate in a civil and constructive fashion, with everyone respecting each other's opinions, regardless of whether they disagree with them or not? If you're happy to have a pleasant discussion, then how about demonstrating it rather than continuing with the bickering? Just a thought.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
"Condescending" and "passive-aggressive" spring to mind.
"Condescending" and "passive-aggressive" spring to mind.
Uh, you think those are "names"?
Umm..
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
Uh, you think those are "names"?
Umm..
Uh, you think those are "names"?
Umm..
Well three times I've suggested returning to a polite and friendly discussion, and three times you've ignored the request. I'm offering to try and hold a civilised dialogue, but you don't seem interested. Not sure what else I can realistically do.
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Stop trying to pretend you were all nice and polite through this whole thread?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gillibean
Stop trying to pretend you were all nice and polite through this whole thread?
Stop trying to pretend you were all nice and polite through this whole thread?
Or you could do the same? Here's a radical suggestion.... stop bickering and point-scoring, and just discuss the topic politely, appreciating that it's possible to respectfully disagree? We can either move on and act like adults, or continue this pointless and unproductive argument until the end of time. Your call.
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In the US, I think that forced oral and anal penetration is not classified legally as "rape" but "sodomy."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary
In the US, I think that forced oral and anal penetration is not classified legally as "rape" but "sodomy."
In the US, I think that forced oral and anal penetration is not classified legally as "rape" but "sodomy."
It depends on the state. Some states classify rape as any kind of forced sex (including oral).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
Look, let's try and clarify this with a little objectivity, courtesy of the Oxford English Dictionary.....
rape
verb 1 (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will. 2 spoil or destroy (a place).
sexual intercourse
noun sexual contact between individuals involving penetration, especially the insertion of a mans erect penis into a womans vagina culminating in orgasm and the ejaculation of semen.
I'm not sure how much clearer that can be!
Look, let's try and clarify this with a little objectivity, courtesy of the Oxford English Dictionary.....
rape
verb 1 (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will. 2 spoil or destroy (a place).
sexual intercourse
noun sexual contact between individuals involving penetration, especially the insertion of a mans erect penis into a womans vagina culminating in orgasm and the ejaculation of semen.
I'm not sure how much clearer that can be!
since your dictonary definition is the be all end all how agout this. If a woman performs oral sex on a man that is penatration is it not? the penis pentrates the mouth.hmm but then i guess he raped her damn. Not mention by your definition it impossible for a woman to rape a man since the only way for it to be done is by penile penetration.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinnesshero
since your dictonary definition is the be all end all how agout this. If a woman performs oral sex on a man that is penatration is it not? the penis pentrates the mouth.hmm but then i guess he raped her damn. Not mention by your definition it impossible for a woman to rape a man since the only way for it to be done is by penile penetration.
since your dictonary definition is the be all end all how agout this. If a woman performs oral sex on a man that is penatration is it not? the penis pentrates the mouth.hmm but then i guess he raped her damn. Not mention by your definition it impossible for a woman to rape a man since the only way for it to be done is by penile penetration.
Is it really to much to ask that people debate this without making it personal? It's not "my" definition. It's the definition of the word according to the world's primary reference dictionary. It's the definition most commonly understood by the vast majority of people. And the word "penetration" in this context is understood to refer to the penis. Nobody would (hopefully!) suggest that poking your finger up someone's nose is raping them.
Now you can argue that the word "rape" should be extended to include all kinds of diverse acts of sexual aggression, and there'd be a strong case for that. But currently, the commonly understood definition of rape doesn't stretch to that. Legal definitions may vary from country to country, but definitions of rape that extend the word's meaning beyond forced sexual intercourse are still in the minority.
What continues to puzzle me is why people seem to be taking this so personally and getting so worked up over it. Just to reiterate... all acts of sexual assault should be treated with the utmost seriousness, regardless of what we choose to call them.
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It's odd to me that this thread seems to be so rancorous due to a disagreement about terms. Is someone suggesting that the crime should be treated less seriously depending on what it is called? Is that the problem? Or is there something else going on?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary
It's odd to me that this thread seems to be so rancorous due to a disagreement about terms.
It's odd to me that this thread seems to be so rancorous due to a disagreement about terms.
Likewise.
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Is someone suggesting that the crime should be treated less seriously depending on what it is called?
Not me.
Quote:
Is that the problem? Or is there something else going on?
Internet forum syndrome. Arguments become polarised, with people seeing things in very black and white terms.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
It's the definition most commonly understood by the vast majority of people.
It's the definition most commonly understood by the vast majority of people.
If by "vast majority of people" we mean OSRVMJ, the Official Self-appointed Representative of the Vast Majority of People, Lentil Burger
"and I stand
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made of weak and useless men"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
If by "vast majority of people" we mean OSRVMJ, the Official Self-appointed Representative of the Vast Majority of People, Lentil Burger
If by "vast majority of people" we mean OSRVMJ, the Official Self-appointed Representative of the Vast Majority of People, Lentil Burger
You just can't manage to discuss topics politely, can you? And you call me passive-aggressive?
All you're doing now is trolling.
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No, I'm just saying maybe you should be a little more modest in your certainty about how well you represent most people. You know, your reaction to the amount of semantical disagreement you've received in this thread could be "well, gee, maybe this means something" and not "this is just some random message board, it doesn't mean anything, I'm right yeah".
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
No, I'm just saying maybe you should be a little more modest in your certainty about how well you represent most people.
No, I'm just saying maybe you should be a little more modest in your certainty about how well you represent most people.
Ah, now that's almost reasonable! Why couldn't you just say it like that in the first place?
Quote:
You know, your reaction to the amount of semantical disagreement you've received in this thread could be "well, gee, maybe this means something" and not "this is just some random message board, it doesn't mean anything, I'm right yeah"
But my honest opinion is that this isn't a representative sample of society. Just get out there and talk to some people. That's what I've been doing. They're pretty clear on what they believe "rape" means.
To satisfy your desire for modesty, I can't say that that proves my case 100%, because it's simply a straw poll. But combined with the Oxford English Dictionary and the predominant legal definition, it does seem to point towards a commonly accepted meaning. So maybe.... just maybe.... you should look at the evidence beyond one thread on an internet forum, and think "well, gee, maybe this means something".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentil Burger
You just can't manage to discuss topics politely, can you? And you call me passive-aggressive?
All you're doing now is trolling.
You just can't manage to discuss topics politely, can you? And you call me passive-aggressive?
All you're doing now is trolling.
Isn't name-calling against the rules?
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The "common legal definition" varies from state to state, country to country. As has been said before, some countries define this as rape. Some countries do not have rape at all, it's all sexual assault, some countries think that wives can't be raped, some countries think only females can be raped, some countries think that if the woman was alone with an unrelated man it can't be rape because she asked for it. What "predominant legal code" do you speak of?
What I find so utterly and inherently frustrating is your repeated insistence that you view is the "majority" one simply and only because you hold it. Look at the people who have posted in this thread. Look at them. Look at how many people agree with you to disagree with you. You are just not in the majority. And yes honey baby, the percentages amongst people in the outside world are pretty much the same. Simply because you believe one thing does not make it the majority. Life just doesn't work like that.
As you said "look outside one internet forum". I do. My legal code states quite clearly that what happened here was rape. It states very, very clearly that forced fellatio or cunnilingus, whether the person is being forced to do it or forced to submit, is rape. It even uses those words. Swedish law is evidently the same. The general consensus where I live is that forced sex (and yes, oral sex is included in that) is rape.
I agree that where you live the law and the general consensus may differ. Because I know for sure you don't speak for the "majority" amongst the sort of people I move in. You might speak for the majority where you live but certainly not everywhere, that's for sure.
What I find so utterly and inherently frustrating is your repeated insistence that you view is the "majority" one simply and only because you hold it. Look at the people who have posted in this thread. Look at them. Look at how many people agree with you to disagree with you. You are just not in the majority. And yes honey baby, the percentages amongst people in the outside world are pretty much the same. Simply because you believe one thing does not make it the majority. Life just doesn't work like that.
As you said "look outside one internet forum". I do. My legal code states quite clearly that what happened here was rape. It states very, very clearly that forced fellatio or cunnilingus, whether the person is being forced to do it or forced to submit, is rape. It even uses those words. Swedish law is evidently the same. The general consensus where I live is that forced sex (and yes, oral sex is included in that) is rape.
I agree that where you live the law and the general consensus may differ. Because I know for sure you don't speak for the "majority" amongst the sort of people I move in. You might speak for the majority where you live but certainly not everywhere, that's for sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gillibean
Isn't name-calling against the rules?
Isn't name-calling against the rules?
FWIW, this seems to have already been handled between Lentil Burger and Seven Seas.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz
The "common legal definition" varies from state to state, country to country. As has been said before, some countries define this as rape. Some countries do not have rape at all, it's all sexual assault, some countries think that wives can't be raped, some countries think only females can be raped, some countries think that if the woman was alone with an unrelated man it can't be rape because she asked for it. What "predominant legal code" do you speak of?
What I find so utterly and inherently frustrating is your repeated insistence that you view is the "majority" one simply and only because you hold it. Look at the people who have posted in this thread. Look at them. Look at how many people agree with you to disagree with you. You are just not in the majority. And yes honey baby, the percentages amongst people in the outside world are pretty much the same. Simply because you believe one thing does not make it the majority. Life just doesn't work like that.
As you said "look outside one internet forum". I do. My legal code states quite clearly that what happened here was rape. It states very, very clearly that forced fellatio or cunnilingus, whether the person is being forced to do it or forced to submit, is rape. It even uses those words. Swedish law is evidently the same. The general consensus where I live is that forced sex (and yes, oral sex is included in that) is rape.
I agree that where you live the law and the general consensus may differ. Because I know for sure you don't speak for the "majority" amongst the sort of people I move in. You might speak for the majority where you live but certainly not everywhere, that's for sure.
The "common legal definition" varies from state to state, country to country. As has been said before, some countries define this as rape. Some countries do not have rape at all, it's all sexual assault, some countries think that wives can't be raped, some countries think only females can be raped, some countries think that if the woman was alone with an unrelated man it can't be rape because she asked for it. What "predominant legal code" do you speak of?
What I find so utterly and inherently frustrating is your repeated insistence that you view is the "majority" one simply and only because you hold it. Look at the people who have posted in this thread. Look at them. Look at how many people agree with you to disagree with you. You are just not in the majority. And yes honey baby, the percentages amongst people in the outside world are pretty much the same. Simply because you believe one thing does not make it the majority. Life just doesn't work like that.
As you said "look outside one internet forum". I do. My legal code states quite clearly that what happened here was rape. It states very, very clearly that forced fellatio or cunnilingus, whether the person is being forced to do it or forced to submit, is rape. It even uses those words. Swedish law is evidently the same. The general consensus where I live is that forced sex (and yes, oral sex is included in that) is rape.
I agree that where you live the law and the general consensus may differ. Because I know for sure you don't speak for the "majority" amongst the sort of people I move in. You might speak for the majority where you live but certainly not everywhere, that's for sure.
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oh boy, what other definitions can we argue about??? we could have a websters thread! 
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