Are you getting a Flu Shot? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 11-05-2007, 12:40 PM
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People can do whatever they wish in regards to the flu shot. The flu is very unlikely to kill them, especially if they are not high risk. But the idea that getting the flu will make your immunity stronger vs the idea that getting a vacination will not, is nonsense. There is also a misunderstanding between associating an overuse of antibiotics leading to stronger strains and a belief that vaccination would lead to stronger strains as well. That is wrong.



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Originally Posted by bethanie View Post

Germs and illness actually can help to build our immunity if they are met with a body that has been primarily active and well, and also had a nutritious diet.



What happens when you naturally acquire an illness is that your body is exposed to an antigen and develops its own antibodies against the pathogen, retains a memory of this antigen so that in the future it can quickly produce more antibodies upon a future exposure to the antigen.



In the case of vaccination or artificial immunity the EXACT same thing happens in the body. It is exposed to a weakened or dead pathogen which forces the body to develop the exact same antibodies, retain the exact same memory so that if the body comes in contact in the future it can quickly produce more antibodies from a future exposure and quickly fight it off.



So a vaccination will help build your immunity the same way as exposure will. The only difference is that you don't get sick. Getting sick doesn't strengthen your immune system - developing antibodies does. When it comes to making antibodies it doesn't matter whether the antigen was strong, weak or dead. You are no stronger or better prepared to fend off the world because on top of developing antibodies you also had a fever, cough, diarrhea etc.



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It was funny that her body knew what she needed.



Just because the body has evolved a defence mechanism doesn't mean that the body benefits from having that mechanism strained. Yes the body can in most cases fight off the flu, but it also used the same defence mechanism to try to fight off things like smallpox with a much worse success ratio. People who survived smallpox in the past were no stronger from the ordeal - they simply had immunity from smallpox in the future. People who were vaccinated against smallpox were no weaker from not going through the ordeal, they had the same immunity.



Our body also knows what is needed in the case of massive blood loss - it shunts blood to the core trying to save the most vital organs and doesn't worry about all of the rest of the organs. If you are lucky and you naturally manage to clot the place where you were losing blood you might survive, but you will never be stronger from the ordeal, in fact you will probably suffer for the rest of life. The unnatural way to do it is to give the patient IV fluids, blood, inotropic and vasopressor drugs to ensure that all of their organs are being perfused with oxygen so those organs do not become necrotic and then fix the "leak." Those people are not weaker because they were healed in an unnatural way.



I was a student when there was an ecoli outbreak years ago. I have met a couple of the children who survived. They no longer have a functioning liver or kidneys and will be on dialysis for the rest of their lives. They are not stronger from the ordeal.



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One of my big issues with modern medicine is that we have overmedicated. Antibiotics for every infection...which happen to cause diseases to mutate into more difficult to treat diseases.



This is true. Modern medicine is concerned with the overuse of antibiotics. But, just as concerned with the underuse of antibiotics. A lot of cases of mutation are due to patients not finishing their treatment. Plus the overuse of antibiotics is far more prevalent in agriculture than in humans. But this has little to do with vaccinations. Viruses etc that we vaccinate against do not mutate more because they come in contact with more people who are protected by antibodies, in fact they should mutate far less because they are finding fewer hosts and reproducing less.



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We've lost faith in the bodies fervent impulse to heal itself...when it kind of does quite well...particularly from viral issues.



I would argue that we have come to understand the limitations of body to heal itself. Faith didn't protect people against smallpox, antibodies did.
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#32 Old 11-05-2007, 12:43 PM
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Nope. My immune system is fine. I'd rather leave the vaccinations for those whose immune systems are compromised.
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#33 Old 11-05-2007, 12:53 PM
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I have bad athsma so I could get it free if i wanted and its recommended.

I won't though

my athsma isnt bad enough for flu to kill me! ive had it once before and recovered!

I dont want it done, I'll cope without. Doesnt it now only protect against a small % of flu viruses anyway?



on a side note, im SO glad people in this thread actually know what flu is! Loads of people seem to think they have flu when it is actually a cold
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#34 Old 11-05-2007, 01:06 PM
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Sorry vegimedic...I wasn't comparing vaccination with antibiotics...I was merely pointing at our need to medicate everything to death as a problem...both in the case of flu shots AND antibiotics. i don't know that flu shots cause mutant strains of flu to exist or not, though I do know that different flu strains do crop up yearly and that having a flu shot does not always mean immunity.



I already understood the whole antibody thing...but thanks for the explination anyway.



There are also issues with vaccinations that are very valid.



I never questioned at all the limitations of the body's propensity to heal itself. As I mentioned, we visit a doctor when self healing strategies don't work. But also...there's a larger issue, that medicine puts it's energies into keeping folks from getting sick and/or dying. Which in a way can be seend as a noble goal. Definitely. But I'm looking at our population and our planet's current state and thinking about overpopulation problems. In other species, diseases, famine, drout...etc. These things combine to keep populations in check. When ther's drout/famine, species even reproduce at lower rates. But we...in our infinite wisdom have created a system that tries to cure every disease. People are thus living a LOT longer...often into severe states of senility and becoming completely dependent on others. Sometimes I just wonder at the ramifications of keeping people alive, simply because we can. Anyway....just opinions. The things I said before, they were just opinions....



I won't be getting a flu shot.



B
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#35 Old 11-05-2007, 01:07 PM
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I get the flu every year and they are having a free clinic at work next week...so I've been considering it, but still undecided.

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#36 Old 11-05-2007, 01:17 PM
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I am getting it for 2 reasons:



1) I work with children

2) if I get sick and miss work I am really screwed.
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#37 Old 11-05-2007, 02:22 PM
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Yeah, I'm getting one, too, this year, mainly because I've got little kids at home, and if they get sick, someone's got to take care of 'em. It's absolutely a chore taking care of sick kids when you're sick, too. They're getting flu shots, too, since they're miserable enough just when they get colds. I'd rather do what I can to attempt to avoid the flu.
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#38 Old 11-05-2007, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

Nope. My immune system is fine. I'd rather leave the vaccinations for those whose immune systems are compromised.



I agree completely. No shot for me.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#39 Old 11-05-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethanie View Post


One of my big issues with modern medicine is that we have overmedicated. Antibiotics for every infection...which happen to cause diseases to mutate into more difficult to treat diseases. We've lost faith in the bodies fervent impulse to heal itself...when it kind of does quite well...particularly from viral issues. As a parent and a person I always live under the philosophy that my body...and my daughter's, is mostly strong enough to heal itself. In the case that it can't, a doctor/medicine may be needed. But in the last six years, neither of us has needed anything other than time, rest and very occasionally, some OTC treatment.



B



I agree. Some vaccines are good and necessary, but IMO we over-vaccinate, at least in this country. Humans and pets both.



I actually had to sign a paper at work that made anyone who didn't take the flu shot sound evil and horrible.
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#40 Old 11-05-2007, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bethanie View Post

I think that my take on it beachbunny is that we have received a false impression that nobody is ever supposed to get sick or die. In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth. We are neither supposed to be always healthy or always ill. Germs and illness actually can help to build our immunity if they are met with a body that has been primarily active and well, and also had a nutritious diet. I've been at home with my daughter all weekend. She's been ill with cold/flu symptoms which have included everything from congestion, coughing and sore throat to vomiting. Normally she is immensely healthy. When she got sick she simply laid down and rested, blowed her nose, coughed and occasionally....cried. Then yesterday evening I saw her turning a corner and returning to health again. Her energy returned, she wanted to eat and be outside a bit. We're at home today again so she can have another day of rest before returning to school. It was funny that her body knew what she needed. Once I tried to get her to eat and take some medicine and it was after this that she simply threw up.



One of my big issues with modern medicine is that we have overmedicated. Antibiotics for every infection...which happen to cause diseases to mutate into more difficult to treat diseases. We've lost faith in the bodies fervent impulse to heal itself...when it kind of does quite well...particularly from viral issues. As a parent and a person I always live under the philosophy that my body...and my daughter's, is mostly strong enough to heal itself. In the case that it can't, a doctor/medicine may be needed. But in the last six years, neither of us has needed anything other than time, rest and very occasionally, some OTC treatment.



B



Oh I hear ya on everything in this post! My best-friend litteral has called me the Queen of the "Do-Not-Take-Pills" movement. I recently went through a serious back injury and had quite a few doctors wanting to play "chemistry set" with my body. Well I didn't let them and my Pysical Therapist said I recovered much faster than anyone she'd ever treated. I don't do drugs. Period. lol



That said, I do worry about being a carrier of illnesses. My Grandmother, who I just got back from visiting , is... not doing well and there are so many babies that I'm around since all my friends are in that stage. I just worry about it and had never thought about it from the angle of personal responsibility to others. Though I'm still not taking the shot.
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#41 Old 11-05-2007, 03:52 PM
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I've been told I need one for the past 4 or 5 years because I'm a "high risk group" I've never had one though. I would never be able to have it done because I always manage to have a cold and it's a live vaccine so I would end up getting flu because my immune system is weakened.
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#42 Old 11-05-2007, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate Ferret View Post

I have bad athsma so I could get it free if i wanted and its recommended.

I won't though

my athsma isnt bad enough for flu to kill me! ive had it once before and recovered!

I dont want it done, I'll cope without. Doesnt it now only protect against a small % of flu viruses anyway?



on a side note, im SO glad people in this thread actually know what flu is! Loads of people seem to think they have flu when it is actually a cold



I think it prevents against the most common strain that year or something.
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#43 Old 11-05-2007, 04:25 PM
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the flu shot isn't a live vaccine here in ontario. i keep coming across people locally who are of the belief that the vaccine will give them the flu, and i struggle to convince them that its impossible for dead flu germs to give you flu. sore arm- yeah.... mild immune response- quite possibly... allergic reaction- maybe... flu...erm... no. i think quite a few people co-incidently get a cold a bit after they've had the shot, it is the cold season after all, and there seem to be a lot of people around who think they have flu when they have a cold.



i wasn't going to get a flu shot, but its free here, and after reflecting on how unpleasant the flu was the one time i had it (ok, i didn't die, but i was in bed for a week, weak for a week more, and didn't enjoy it much at all) i thought i might as well mooch over the the mall and get stabbed in the arm (much preferable to the risk of a week in bed staring at the ceiling and wailing and bemoaning my sickly lot). i'm on the special list in the uk as an asthmatic, and not having OHIP here, flu could get expensive if i got complications (not likley, but anyway, no flu is preferable to flu in my books).
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#44 Old 11-05-2007, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

the flu shot isn't a live vaccine here in ontario.



The nasal spray is live, but as far as I know it is not available in Canada. No flu vaccination injections are live.
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#45 Old 11-05-2007, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fona View Post

I think it prevents against the most common strain that year or something.



Generally it protects against 3 strains of influenza which they predict will be the most common in the upcoming flu season.
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#46 Old 11-05-2007, 05:27 PM
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#47 Old 11-07-2007, 06:43 PM
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No flu shot for me!! Shots hurt...I have hardly ever gotten the flu...and shots are evil poisons that they are injecting into our bloodstream...plus, as mentioned, they aren't vegan.
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#48 Old 11-07-2007, 08:19 PM
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I won't get one this year. I have not had one in the past either, even though my boss pays for the staff and cast of our theater to get them every year.

Our actors just can't get sick!!!!

The show must go on



Anyway... I'm not afraid of needles or even against the idea, but I just really don't feel inclined to bother.

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#49 Old 11-07-2007, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by troub View Post

Nope, do not see a reason to get one.



I mean . . . it's the flu . . . On the rare chance to catch it, a bowl of soup, some hot tea, and a day laying in bed will suffice.



That's not the real flu.



The real flu is a very serious and life threatening illness. That's why there's such pressure to get vaccinated for it. The epidemic that occured some time ago killed quite a few people.



When people say they have the flu, it's probably not really it. It's so serious that many must be taken to a hospital to get better :/



source=Mommy, who's a doctor :]
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#50 Old 11-07-2007, 11:41 PM
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The epidemic that occured some time ago killed quite a few people.





The 1918 pandemic killed 50 million people! (Wiki told me that)
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#51 Old 11-08-2007, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrrple View Post

That's not the real flu.



The real flu is a very serious and life threatening illness. That's why there's such pressure to get vaccinated for it. The epidemic that occured some time ago killed quite a few people.



When people say they have the flu, it's probably not really it. It's so serious that many must be taken to a hospital to get better :/



source=Mommy, who's a doctor :]



Very true (source: work at the Health Dept).



Many times someone has a fever for a day or two, maybe a stomach bug and they feel really sick but it's just a virus. Supposedly you need a doctor to diagnose the actual 'flu'...I think there is a test for it. The flu usually lasts longer than that.



It's going to be interesting to see if anything comes of this Bird Flu...I keep hearing that another pandemic will happen, doesn't have to be the Bird Flu... it's just a matter of when.
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#52 Old 11-08-2007, 05:11 AM
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Iv`e just had the flu,but i still wouldn`t have a flu jab i`m to scared of needle`s what a wimp i guess,lol
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#53 Old 11-08-2007, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by troub View Post

Nope, do not see a reason to get one.



I mean . . . it's the flu . . . On the rare chance to catch it, a bowl of soup, some hot tea, and a day laying in bed will suffice.

Same here lol
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#54 Old 11-08-2007, 09:09 AM
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I've never had the shot and have no intention of getting one in the near future. I'm not sure I've ever had the flu.
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#55 Old 11-08-2007, 09:55 AM
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It's going to be interesting to see if anything comes of this Bird Flu...I keep hearing that another pandemic will happen, doesn't have to be the Bird Flu... it's just a matter of when.



Another pandemic is always possible. I don't know the chances, but it is enough that it worries a lot of people who are experts on the matter. The genetic difference inbetween the spanish flu which killed at least 50 million people and one of the current strains of flu (H1N1 I think) is only a couple base pairs. Currently the vaccine makers make about 300 million flu shots worldwide as they will only make as many as they think they can sell. If a particularly nasty mutation occurs they might be able to ramp up vaccinations to 400 or 500 million, but most will have to go without. A couple people who have told me that they will not get a flu shot (for themselves or there children) because the flu won't kill them, but if there is a deadly mutation and there is a vaccination available they would get it. What they don't realize is that because so many people don't get a flu shot the industry won't have the capacity to provide everyone with immunity.
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#56 Old 11-08-2007, 05:03 PM
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So are you arguing we all should vaccinate against the flu, just to 'up' the production of the industry?
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#57 Old 11-09-2007, 08:46 AM
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Beware of pharmaceutical medicine.



TRENTON, N.J. - Merck & Co. said Friday it will pay $4.85 billion to end thousands of lawsuits over its painkiller Vioxx in what is believed to be the largest drug settlement ever.



Merck faced personal injury lawsuits representing 47,000 plaintiffs, and about 265 potential class action cases, filed by people or family members who claimed the drug proved fatal or injured its users. The agreement covers cases filed in both federal and state courts.
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#58 Old 11-09-2007, 08:47 AM
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This goes for vaccines. It turns out that they last much, much longer than doctors tell you. Even a tetanus vaccine has been found to last 30 years!



By the way, this goes for vaccinating your dogs and cats too often. It's bad for them!



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1107170749.htm
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#59 Old 11-09-2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
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Beware of pharmaceutical medicine.



TRENTON, N.J. - Merck & Co. said Friday it will pay $4.85 billion to end thousands of lawsuits over its painkiller Vioxx in what is believed to be the largest drug settlement ever.



Merck faced personal injury lawsuits representing 47,000 plaintiffs, and about 265 potential class action cases, filed by people or family members who claimed the drug proved fatal or injured its users. The agreement covers cases filed in both federal and state courts.



1) This has nothing to do with vaccinations.



2) Despite evidence that Vioxx increases risk of cardiovascular disease, panels in Canada and the US have voted for the return of Vioxx to the market stating in both cases that its benefits outweigh its risks for many patients. The Canadian panel voted 12 -1 in favor noting that cardiovascular risks from vioxx are no worse those from ibuprofen. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodp...re_cox2_e.html



3) The number of legal suits speaks more to the litigious atmosphere in the US and to the fact that merck scientists reported their findings from the initial studies poorly, then to the actual danger from the drug. For instance the first legal case that Merck lost, the family was awarded over $250 million in damages despite the patient dying from cardiac arrhythmia which is not a side effect shown to have ever been caused by Vioxx. Merck had won the vast majority of cases, but considering that Merck was being sued for deaths that there is no evidence which Vioxx causes (believe it or not people do die, especially old people and Vioxx was only shown to increase risks of strokes and cardiovascular disease), and considering juries were in some cases wrongly awarding hundreds of millions of dollars despite the evidence showing that Vioxx doesn't cause what killed the patient, Merck was smart to settle.
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#60 Old 11-09-2007, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver View Post

This goes for vaccines. It turns out that they last much, much longer than doctors tell you. Even a tetanus vaccine has been found to last 30 years!



The fact that vaccinations last longer than was intially suspected is a good thing. The article you posted said as much (although I highly doubt you read any more than the title)



From the article:



Quote:
We want to emphasize that proper vaccination is vital for protecting people against infectious disease. We also need to mention that over-vaccinating the population poses no health or safety concerns -- it may just be unnecessary under certain circumstances. What our study found was that the lifespan of protective immunity for certain vaccines is much longer than previously thought.



From a biological standpoint, their is no risk of over-vaccination. It is no different then hundreds of years ago surviving smallpox and then coming in contact with the virus again in the future. The immune system really couldn't care less.



Quote:
By the way, this goes for vaccinating your dogs and cats too often. It's bad for them!



Showing once again that you have no idea what you are talking about.
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