A spin-off. Is Disassociating one thing from another bad? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 10-31-2007, 12:04 PM
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This sprang out of some thoughts I was having after reading the thread about the boyfriend who watched meet your meat and wasn't affected by it.



do you think that videos such as these should have the power to change all of th ose who watch them? Do you think they do?



If someone watches "meet your meat" or a video similar and is unaffected by it, do you think they are a terrible person, or that maybe a different teaching method would be more effective at changing that person's mind?



I think that everyone learns and processes things differently. Whether meet your meat can change a person's mind on eating meat products is debatable. for some here, it worked, for others, it wasn't the deciding factor. I don't think disassociating meat from an animal is a sign of an underlying psychiatric problem, but rather how as a society we are socialized to think. We go to a grocery store and see sterile packages of meat - beef, chicken, pork, turkey, etc. To many, that's all it is, it isn't a once living creature because we are not socialized to see it as such.



So, what are your opinions on this?
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#2 Old 10-31-2007, 12:07 PM
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I'd say "whatever works" plus "whatever is respectful toward all involved." This would rule out kidnapping someone for the rest of their life and only providing veg*n food to eat.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#3 Old 10-31-2007, 12:11 PM
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Lol
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#4 Old 10-31-2007, 01:39 PM
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watching meat your meat probably wouldn't get me either. i'm pretty used to horrific and distressing things appearing on a screen. i've watched a lot of horror movies, etc.



i think many people are like this, thats why we can flip past the news, or the amnesty international infomercials, and don't burst into tears or feel engulfed in sorrow or a desperate feeling or need to help/donate money constantly- its as if our brains process it as fiction, even though we know its not, or we're just desensitized from repeated exposure.



i'm sure coming face to face with a tortured and abused animal, or starving child, would affect me more... bacuase i haven't seen it a million times... well, i'm hopeful- i can be pretty detached generally in high stress situations (learned self preservation strategy). it doesn't make me a soleless person, its just a sign of the sad sorry state of affairs of ....mumble mumble something something...
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#5 Old 10-31-2007, 02:23 PM
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I think not being affected by MYM is pretty problematic. What happens on the screen is real. Even if it doesn't happen everywhere, it happened there. It's not a cartoon, they are real animals, and to not be affected by their suffering in any way is very sad.

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#6 Old 10-31-2007, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think not being affected by MYM is pretty problematic. What happens on the screen is real. Even if it doesn't happen everywhere, it happened there. It's not a cartoon, they are real animals, and to not be affected by their suffering in any way is very sad.



sad yes, but not everyone sees it for what it is, or sees it as propaganda and not real.
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#7 Old 10-31-2007, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think not being affected by MYM is pretty problematic. What happens on the screen is real. Even if it doesn't happen everywhere, it happened there. It's not a cartoon, they are real animals, and to not be affected by their suffering in any way is very sad.



So when everyone saw the death and suffering during Hurricane Katrina but did nothing, why are they not labeled as psychopaths?



When we see documentaries on disease-inflicted children in Africa, are we inhumane for not joining the Red Cross, moving to Africa, and doing what we can to save them?



Those are real situations. People have died and will continue to die, yet seeing it on TV doesn't cause everyone to move to action.



Similarly, watching MYM doesn't cause everyone to go vegan.



*shrug*
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#8 Old 10-31-2007, 05:35 PM
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Additionally, going vegan doesn't save animal lives or reduce the amount of current suffering on factory farms. Working to encourage responsible, sustainable farming does. Supporting and working with organic, truly "free range" farms makes a difference.



Simply stocking up on Boca burgers does little to reduce the way commercial farmers raise livestock. Do that because you feel it's the right thing for you, not because you're on some mission to save animals. Go work on an animal sanctuary if you want to do that.



/grumpy
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#9 Old 10-31-2007, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Libellula View Post

sad yes, but not everyone sees it for what it is, or sees it as propaganda and not real.

Thinking that it's not real -- i.e. thinking that it is staged -- constitutes such a heavy allegation that there should be some evidence for it.



One may very well believe that MYM only shows the worst abuses -- despite the fact that the slaughterhouse worker turned activist Virgil Butler (RIP) has stated that the abuse shown on MYM is pretty standard on factory farms -- but that doesn't mean that that abuse isn't real.



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Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

So when everyone saw the death and suffering during Hurricane Katrina but did nothing, why are they not labeled as psychopaths?



When we see documentaries on disease-inflicted children in Africa, are we inhumane for not joining the Red Cross, moving to Africa, and doing what we can to save them?



Those are real situations. People have died and will continue to die, yet seeing it on TV doesn't cause everyone to move to action.



Similarly, watching MYM doesn't cause everyone to go vegan.



*shrug*

1) Your analogy is very problematic. There is a distinction between supporting extreme cruelty with your money on the one hand, and not giving money to charity, on the other. The concept of animal rights is not about "doing good". It's not about benevolence or charity. It's about the obligation not to exploit.



2) I said that not being affected in any way is sad, I didn't say that not going vegan due to MYM is very sad (it is, though). Even if you won't give money to hunger relief, you can be affected by seeing starving people.



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Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

Additionally, going vegan doesn't save animal lives or reduce the amount of current suffering on factory farms. Working to encourage responsible, sustainable farming does. Supporting and working with organic, truly "free range" farms makes a difference.

Huh? Whether a group of people go vegan or support "humane" exploitation, they are not giving money to factory farms and thus the number of animals bred and exploited on factory farms is smaller. The difference is that the vegans aren't supporting a different kind of exploitation, and that the vegans are manifesting a political message that rejects the use of animals.

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#10 Old 11-01-2007, 09:48 AM
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The concept of animal rights is not about "doing good". It's not about benevolence or charity. It's about the obligation not to exploit.



OK then, when you see a documentary on TV about women being promised to work in the US, then end up on a small US territory island, living & working on a factory so clothes can be labeled "Made in the USA" - what do people do about it? Aren't they obligated not to exploit?



Quote:
2) I said that not being affected in any way is sad, I didn't say that not going vegan due to MYM is very sad (it is, though). Even if you won't give money to hunger relief, you can be affected by seeing starving people.



Several people have wondered on here how people can see MYM and still eat meat. And have mused that those people must be psychopathic. That's what I was addressing. Not you.



Quote:
Huh? Whether a group of people go vegan or support "humane" exploitation, they are not giving money to factory farms and thus the number of animals bred and exploited on factory farms is smaller. The difference is that the vegans aren't supporting a different kind of exploitation, and that the vegans are manifesting a political message that rejects the use of animals.



I agree with you. But, commercial farming practices don't change when people go vegan. Eating Boca burgers doesn't encourage large ag companies to change the way cattle are raised. And with population growth and increasing meat consumption in the US, I'd hardly suggest that going vegan alone makes enough of an impact on the meat industry to get them to change their ways.



I believe we need corporate financial incentives to get large companies to change the way livestock are raised. I don't think that any other method, including being vegan, is going to make substantial change.
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#11 Old 11-01-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

Several people have wondered on here how people can see MYM and still eat meat. And have mused that those people must be psychopathic. That's what I was addressing. Not you.



like this:

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...8&postcount=61



and the title of the thread - he has no soul.
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#12 Old 11-01-2007, 10:15 AM
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" I don't have to listen to you! You're a dog! You don't have a soul! " - Chris Griffin
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#13 Old 11-01-2007, 10:15 AM
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i don't understand how you can say a 4 y/o who eats meat unquestioningly, an otherwise inquisitive 4 y/o, is psychopathic (not amy, just a general question) or in denial. He knows nothing else. Many 14 y/os or 24 y/os are the same way.
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#14 Old 11-01-2007, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

Additionally, going vegan doesn't save animal lives or reduce the amount of current suffering on factory farms. Working to encourage responsible, sustainable farming does. Supporting and working with organic, truly "free range" farms makes a difference.



Simply stocking up on Boca burgers does little to reduce the way commercial farmers raise livestock. Do that because you feel it's the right thing for you, not because you're on some mission to save animals. Go work on an animal sanctuary if you want to do that.



/grumpy



You're saying that if 1 person stops eating meat, it has no effect on factory farming? By this logic, then if 240 Americans stop eating meat it also has no effect on farming.



1 person is close to zero, but 1 person is NOT zero. Supply and demand are real.
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#15 Old 11-01-2007, 11:45 AM
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I'm saying that it does not change the way large-scale commercial farming manages the way it raises livestock and does business.



I'm NOT saying that going vegetarian doesn't reduce demand. It may (though I think that increases in population offset any decreases made by vegetarians).



Reducing demand is not the same as changing how commercial farming is done.
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#16 Old 11-01-2007, 11:51 AM
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There's no right way to raise animals for slaughter. If demand drops to 0 for slaughtered animals, then there is no reason to try to convince commercial farmers to raise the animals "the right way."
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#17 Old 11-01-2007, 11:59 AM
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There is a huge difference, to me, between commercial farming and small-scale, local, open-range, organic farming.



But I'm not interested in getting into a AR/AW debate with anyone. I'm staunchly pro-AW and anti-AR and no one is going to change my mind about that.
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#18 Old 11-01-2007, 12:41 PM
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But I'm not interested in getting into a AR/AW debate with anyone. I'm staunchly pro-AW and anti-AR and no one is going to change my mind about that.



is that for the sake of effecting change and being pragmatic or, you just dont believe in ar
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#19 Old 11-01-2007, 01:11 PM
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Does it matter? I don't believe that animals have rights that are equatable to those of humans. But what I think doesn't matter. The world will never stop eating meat, so why not focus on eradicating commercial farming practices rather than eradicating consumption of meat all together?



Besides, there is a growing number of people who will choose organic meat that came from animals slaughtered by a local butcher over packaged conventional meat from Save-Mart. We should capitalize on that and encourage growing awareness of the sources of meat rather than demand people give it up. Baby steps.
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#20 Old 11-03-2007, 06:12 PM
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I remember when the movie Babe came out. It showed pigs in their concentration camps, and a great many children were horrified and no longer wanted to eat meat.



Good for them!
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#21 Old 11-03-2007, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Soy 6-Pack View Post

There's no right way to raise animals for slaughter. If demand drops to 0 for slaughtered animals, then there is no reason to try to convince commercial farmers to raise the animals "the right way."



I agree. I never got that argument that without factory farming there would be no animals at all.
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