CONFIRMED: Ohio 2004 Election Recount was RIGGED - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-04-2007, 07:21 AM
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First criminal convictions from Ohio's stolen 2004 election confirm recount was rigged



by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman



go to www.freepress.org for full story. . . . .



The first felony convictions of two Cleveland poll workers stemming from Ohio's stolen 2004 election confirm that the official recount in that contested vote was, in the words of county prosecutors, "rigged." The question now is whether further prosecutions will reach higher up in the ranks of officials who may have been involved in illegalities throughout the rest of the state.



The convictions have come down in Cuyahoga County, where Democratic candidates traditionally run up huge majorities. Suspicious vote counts and other irregularities cut deeply into John Kerry's margins in 2004. Official vote counts gave the state---and thus the presidency---to George W. Bush by about 118,000 votes out of 5.5 million counted.



In Athens and Auglaize Counties, Board of Elections workers who attempted to blow the whistle on apparent election irregularities were forced out of their jobs.



The question now is whether such prosecutions might include those who are likely to have ordered or approved the illegalities that marred the recount in Cleveland, and throughout the rest of the state.



--

Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman are co-authors of HOW THE GOP STOLE AMERICA'S 2004 ELECTION & IS RIGGING 2008

link to www.freepress.org
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#2 Old 06-04-2007, 10:21 AM
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. . . Now only if we could go back in time and place Kerry in the presidency.
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#3 Old 06-04-2007, 04:02 PM
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. . . Now only if we could go back in time and place Kerry in the presidency.



Too late for that, but our voting system is in serious trouble. We need to get rid of Diebold and others like them.



Without a reliable vote, democracy is gone.
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#4 Old 06-04-2007, 08:06 PM
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So who rigged the elections when Democrat Ted Strickland was elected governor of Ohio in November 2006?

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#5 Old 06-04-2007, 08:18 PM
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So who rigged the elections when Democrat Ted Strickland was elected governor of Ohio in November 2006?



IF voting is rigged or counts are played with it probably does not happen unless the race is close. Strickland won easily, didn't he? so, a Democratic win does not prove somehow that rigging didn't exist in 2004. there has been a lot of talk about what happened in Ohion in 2004, but the most blatant thing seems to have been the lack of working voting machines in many heavily Democrat election districts.
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#6 Old 06-04-2007, 08:38 PM
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IF voting is rigged or counts are played with it probably does not happen unless the race is close. Strickland won easily, didn't he? so, a Democratic win does not prove somehow that rigging didn't exist in 2004. there has been a lot of talk about what happened in Ohion in 2004, but the most blatant thing seems to have been the lack of working voting machines in many heavily Democrat election districts.



That's what they want you to think. Yeah, see, it really was a close election that was rigged, but they said it wasn't close to throw everyone off.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#7 Old 06-04-2007, 09:12 PM
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Here are some interesting snippets from the newspapers concerning Ohio's 2004 election compiled at this website:



http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/c...4_timeline_154



"...November 2, 2004 A dozen precincts in the southwest part of Merced County, Ohio experience problems with electronic voting machines that were purchased in 2001 from UniLect Corp. Machine malfunctions in these precincts are compounded by problems with the paper ballots that are used as a back-up. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004; Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/9/2004] All of the precincts experiencing these problems have a Democratic majority. [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/9/2004] Some of the problems that voters experience include:

20 to 30 of the machines need to be recalibrated when votes intended for one candidate are instead counted for another. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004]

About twelve machines freeze up and have to be restarted. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004]

In the precincts of Hermitage, Farrell, Wheatland, West Middlesex, Shenango Township and Sharon, some machines never operate or offer only black screens while others display the ballot backwards, requiring the voter to start with the last page of the ballot and work towards the beginning. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004]

In polling places where the machines are inoperable, election officials have to provide a back-up supply of paper ballots. But the county only has an emergency stock of 2,000 paper ballots, and as a result they have to print a couple thousand more. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004] But this creates new problems. Some of the paper ballots are missing candidates names and in some precincts there are complaints that poll workers require people to sign their paper ballots. [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/9/2004] Additionally, critics later note that the failure to have had enough paper ballots on hand may have disenfranchised voters. Some people who left the polls when voting was not possible may not have returned to vote when the new supply of paper ballots arrived. [Vindicator, 11/6/2004]

At the Farrell municipal building, where 289 people are known to have voted, the voting machines record only 51 votes for president48 votes for John Kerry and 3 for George W. Bush. Missing presidential votes are a problem in other precincts as well, as the county reports a few days later that 51,818 people cast ballots but only 47,768 of those included a vote for president. [Vindicator, 11/6/2004] About a month later, the total undervote in Mercer County is determined to have been 7.29 percent. Typically, candidates will challenge results when the undervote exceeds 2 percent . [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/9/2004]

For some races machines tabulated negative 25 million votes. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004]

Finally, there is at least one incident involving the harassment of voters. Challengers from both the Democratic and Republican parties assigned to Warren 2E are ordered to leave the polling station after precinct judges say they are being disruptive. [Vindicator, 11/3/2004]

Timeline Tags: US Election 2004



(Morning) November 2, 2004 In Franklin County, Ohio, four additional electronic voting machines are delivered to precincts in inner city Columbus. However 51 machines remain in a warehouse. [Columbus Dispatch, 12/11/2004]

Timeline Tags: US Election 2004



Morning-early afternoon, November 2, 2004 In some heavily democratic Columbus, Ohio precincts, people wait 2-7 hours in long lines to cast their votes because of a shortage of voting machines. Machines delivered the previous day were distributed unevenly throughout the county, with a greater concentration (machine to registered voter) being placed in the higher-income suburbs (See November 1, 2004). 51 machines remain in a warehouse (See Afternoon November 2, 2004). [Columbus Dispatch, 12/11/2004; Free Press, 12/16/2004] After the elections, statistics show that the voter-to-machine ratio was higher in Columbus than in its surrounding suburbs where income levels are higher. In the affluent Republican stronghold of Upper Arlington not one of its 34 precincts had a voting machine which cast more than 200 votes. Only one machine, in ward 6F, came close to the maximum. It was used by 194 voters. However, in the Democratic city of Columbus, there were 34 polling machines which logged on more than 200 votes per machine and 42 machines that were over 190 votes per machine. In another words, in Columbus, 17 percent of the citys machines were operating at 90-100 percent over the optimum capacity while in Upper Arlington the figure was 3 percent. The high voter ratios in Columbus were due to a combination of increased voter participation and fewer voting machines. In Columbus, despite increased voter registration in the city, 139, or 29 percent, of the 472 precincts had fewer machines than in the 2000 presidential election. In some precincts, the number of machines was reduced by as many as five. This contrasted sharply with Upper Arlington, where only two precincts had fewer machines. In one of those precincts, voter registration had declined by 25 percent. [Columbus Dispatch, 12/11/2004; Free Press, 12/16/2004]

Timeline Tags: US Election 2004



Afternoon November 2, 2004 In Franklin County, election officials call the county warehouse where 51 electronic voting machines are being kept to see if additional machines are available and can be delivered to some of Columbuss inner city precincts where voters are experiencing long lines (See November 1, 2004). But they are reportedly told that only 29 machines are there. Workers then program counting cartridges for the 29 machines and attempt to deliver the machines to the inner-city precincts. But for some reason, 17 of the machines are never activated. As a result, these 17 machines, in addition to the 22 machines that were apparently left at the warehouserepresenting 1.4 percent of the countys 2,840 machinesare never used. Officials later are at a loss to explain what happened, saying only that perhaps the polls were closed when the machines arrived or poll workers told those making the delivery that additional machines were not needed. [Associated Press, 12/11/2004; Columbus Dispatch, 12/11/2004]

Timeline Tags: US Election 2004



After 7:30pm, November 2, 2004 In Lebanon, Ohio, Warren County officials close the county administration building to the public where the vote is being tallied. The lockdownthe only one to occur in the stateis a result of a decision that was made during a closed-door meeting the previous week (See October 28, 2004). Warren County Emergency Services Director Frank Young had recommended the increased security because of information received from the US Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. [Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/5/2004] An FBI agent reportedly said that Warren County ranked a 10 on a terrorism scale of 1 to 10. The threat was said to be of domestic origins. [Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/10/2004] But these claims are later challenged when officials from the FBI and DHS say that they were not aware of any such threats. Media organizations protest the lockdown, arguing that the officials are violating the law and the publics rights. The media should have been permitted into the area where there was counting, Enquirer attorney Jack Greiner complains. This is a process that should be done in complete transparency and it wasnt. In other Ohio counties, such as Butler County, people are permitted to observe ballot checkers through a window. In past elections, the Warren County commissioners room was open to the public so they could observe the process. [Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/3/2004; Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/5/2004] The news director at WCPO-TV, Bob Morford, says hes suspicious of the decision to close the building to the public. Ive never seen anything like it, he says. Frankly, we consider that a red herring. Thats something thats put up when you dont know what else to put up to keep us out. [Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/5/2004] Additionally, election officials fail to set up an area with telephones for the media as they were supposed to. When reporters attempt to enter the building, they are refused, although they are later permitted into the buildings lobby located two floors below the elections office. The Associated Press, which has reporters at every Ohio board of elections site, says that Warren County is the only county to implement such tight restrictions. County Prosecutor Rachel Hutzel claims that having reporters and photographers around could interfere with the vote count. [Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/5/2004] It is later explained that these restrictions were also due to homeland security concerns. [Cincinnati Enquirer, 11/10/2004]

Timeline Tags: US Election 2004



November 5, 2004 In Ohio, Matthew Damschroder, director of Franklin County Board of Elections, reports that an error with its electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in Precinct 1B in Gahanna where only 638 voters were known to have cast ballots. The actual tally of Bush votes was 365. [Associated Press, 11/5/2004; Columbus Dispatch, 11/5/2004; Associated Press, 11/6/2004] Franklin is the only Ohio county where the older-style touchscreen voting system manufactured by Danaher Controls Inc.s ELECTronic 1242 is used. [Associated Press, 11/5/2004]

Timeline Tags: US Election 2004...."
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#8 Old 06-04-2007, 11:52 PM
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IF voting is rigged or counts are played with it probably does not happen unless the race is close. Strickland won easily, didn't he? so, a Democratic win does not prove somehow that rigging didn't exist in 2004. there has been a lot of talk about what happened in Ohion in 2004, but the most blatant thing seems to have been the lack of working voting machines in many heavily Democrat election districts.

Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell was pointed to as the main figure behind the supposed rigged vote of 2004.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...lection_stolen

Yet when he was going up against Ted Strickland in the gubernatorial elections he lost by a significant margin. I believe thats the paradox that Skylark was trying to point out.



Bob Fitrakis was also in the governor race so he should probably shut the **** up because he knows this simple paradox more than anybody else.

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#9 Old 06-05-2007, 07:28 AM
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"November 5, 2004 In Ohio, Matthew Damschroder, director of Franklin County Board of Elections, reports that an error with its electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in Precinct 1B in Gahanna where only 638 voters were known to have cast ballots. The actual tally of Bush votes was 365. [Associated Press, 11/5/2004"



This is an example of why so many, many people believe Bush stole the presidency. This is why he is the only president who did not WALK down the avenue to the white house. He had to take refuge inside a car because of so many outraged citizens booing him.
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#10 Old 06-05-2007, 07:37 AM
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Republicans prevented more than 350,000 people in Ohio from voting, more than enough to have put Kerry in the White House . . .



http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...lection_stolen
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#11 Old 06-05-2007, 10:53 AM
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well, Bush flat out lost the first time and still managed to get in; I'm not really surprised anymore by the administration taking every possible step to maintain their rule.





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#12 Old 06-05-2007, 11:38 AM
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In terms of Blackwell being crushed by Strickland, that was an election that couldn't have been rigged. The basic premise that you can't rig an election that isn't close is correct. Without polls, though, the premise that they wanted us to think it wasn't close would have merit.



What clarifies the issue is that countless polling agencies consistently found Strickland beating Blackwell by large margins, WAY outside of the margin for error, for many months leading up to the election. This wide margin was confirmed by all exit polls on election day. A Blackwell win on election day would have been statistically impossible.
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#13 Old 06-05-2007, 12:53 PM
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This makes me ill. I actually cried the day Kerry conceded. The only thing that gives me comfort is the fact that my vote was counted and my state was blue.
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#14 Old 06-05-2007, 01:10 PM
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This makes me ill. I actually cried the day Kerry conceded. The only thing that gives me comfort is the fact that my vote was counted and my state was blue.



I felt awful too. I think our electoral system is outmoded and dangerous. Other countries ponder why the U.S. would have such a voting system, instead of one vote one person, with every vote counted. With the electoral college in place, voter fraud is much more likely to happen in those "important" states. EVERY state should be important. EVERY vote should count equally.
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#15 Old 06-05-2007, 01:14 PM
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"Netcraft is showing that an event happened in the Ohio 2004 election that is difficult to explain. The Secretary of State's website, which handles election reporting, normally is directed to an Ohio-based IP address hosted by the Ohio Supercomputer Center. On Nov. 3 2004, Netcraft shows the website pointing out of state to a server owned by Smartech Corp. According to the American Registry on Internet Numbers, Smartech's block of IP addresses 64.203.96.0 64.203.111.255 encompasses the entire range of addresses owned by the Republican National Committee. Smartech hosted the recently notorious gbw43.com domain used from the White House in apparent violation of the Presidential Records Act, from which thousands of White House emails vanished. Can anyone suggest a good explanations for this seemingly dubious election-eve transfer?"



link to politics.slashdot.org
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#16 Old 06-05-2007, 08:38 PM
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I felt awful too. I think our electoral system is outmoded and dangerous. Other countries ponder why the U.S. would have such a voting system, instead of one vote one person, with every vote counted. With the electoral college in place, voter fraud is much more likely to happen in those "important" states. EVERY state should be important. EVERY vote should count equally.

Silver, honestly I think most people would prefer it if their vote counted more than other peoples, especially yours. The fact that George Bush got the popular vote in 2004 also takes the piss out of your argument. Do you still love the popular vote system if it means George Bush got the most votes of any candidate in history?



George W. Bush \tRepublican 62,040,610 50.7%

John F. Kerry 59,028,111 48.3%

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#17 Old 06-06-2007, 10:37 AM
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well, there certainly were things that went wrong in Ohio in 2004 and on the surface they look pretty damning as far as electoral fairness is concerned. for a nation that claims to be the 'beacon of democracy' for the world we sure do have a tough time letting people vote. it would have been ironic if Bush had lost to Kerry in the electoral college while winning the popular vote just like Gore lost to him in the Electoral College in 2000 while winning the popular vote.



in both Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 there was ample evidence to make one at least strongly suspect that the people in power in those states were trying to make it very difficult for voters with certain profiles when they went to vote. that should outrage everyone of every political persuasion, but appears to be happening is that the topic is of little concern until right before election day. by then it is too late to change things.
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#18 Old 06-06-2007, 11:30 AM
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well, there certainly were things that went wrong in Ohio in 2004 and on the surface they look pretty damning as far as electoral fairness is concerned.

You can quote a bunch of anecdotal evidence and still have nothing, it's the same as the "proof" of 9/11 conspiracy theories.

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#19 Old 06-06-2007, 12:21 PM
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there is no similarity between the 9/11 conspiracy theories and what happened in Ohio. what a bogus analogy.



there were many many newspaper reports that i posted above. in addition, there was sworn testimony at hearings in Ohio. this isn't mere anecdotal evidence; rather, it is observation and testimony that hits upon recurring themes that is not so easily dismissed. just because the people in charge wished to make it appear nothing was wrong and did not follow up doesnt mean that wrongs did not occur. or, do you believe every governmental official never lies? lol:





http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm





At the Columbus hearings, witness after witness under oath gave testimony to an election riddled with discrimination and disarray. Among them:



Werner Lange, a pastor from Youngstown, Ohio, who said in part:





In precincts 1 A and 5 G, voting as Hillman Elementary School, which is a predominantly African American community, there were woefully insufficient number of voting machines in three precincts. I was told that the standard was to have one voting machine per 100 registered voters. Precinct A had 750 registered voters. Precinct G had 690. There should have been 14 voting machines at this site. There were only 6, three per precinct, less than 50 percent of the standard. This caused an enormous bottleneck among voters who had to wait a very, very long time to vote, many of them giving up in frustration and leaving. . . . I estimate, by the way, that an estimated loss of over 8,000 votes from the African American community in the City of Youngstown alone, with its 84 precincts, were lost due to insufficient voting machines, and that would translate to some 7,000 votes lost for John Kerry for President in Youngstown alone. . . .





Boyd Mitchell, Columbus:



What I saw was voter intimidation in the form of city employees that were sent in to stop illegal parking. Now, in Driving Park Rec Center there are less than 50 legal parking spots, and there were literally hundreds and hundreds of voters there, and I estimated at least 70 percent of the people were illegally parked in the grass around the perimeter of the Driving Park Rec Center, and two city employees drove up in a city truck and said that they had been sent there to stop illegal parking, and they went so far as to harass at least a couple of voters that I saw, and when they were talking to us, they were kind. But when they didn't realize we were overhearing them talking to voters, they were trying to keep people from parking where they were parking. They went so far as to set up some cones, trying to block people from getting into a grassy area...



I calculated that I maybe saw about 20 percent of the people that left Driving Park D and C, I personally saw and talked to about 20 percent of them as they left the poll between 12:30 and 8 p.m. And I saw 15 people who left because the line was too long. The lines inside were anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 hours. Most everybody said 4 hours, and I saw at least 15 people who did not vote, and I heard a gentleman who was earlier making some mathematical calculations, well, if this is going on across town, and, you know, in a precinct where it was going so heavily for Kerry, and me only seeing 20 percent of the people coming out, I saw 15. We could just do the math and extrapolate that out into a huge number of people who might have voted had they had a chance.

Joe Popich (entered into the record copies of the Perry County Board of Election poll book):





There are a bunch of irregularities in this log book, but the most blatant irregularity would be the fact that there are 360 signatures in this book. There are 33 people who voted absentee ballot at this precinct, for a total of 393 votes that should be attributed to that precinct. However, the Board of Elections is attributing 96 more votes to that precinct than what this log book reflects.

Derek Winsor, Columbus:





Out of the six total voting machines that were at 14 C, three of them showed some type of malfunction that at one point or another during the three our so hours that we were waiting, and between my wife and me, we had asked poll workers individually if they could explain what was going on and what kind of reassurances they could give us that, for one machine in particular that the votes had already been posted on, that machine would be counted, and the response was just, oh, they will be counted. And how can you be sure of that? What storage mechanism do they use to ensure that the votes are stored, and, again, the response was just, well, they just are. And that was a bit of a concern here.

Carol Shelton, presiding judge, precinct 25 B at the Linden Branch of the Columbus Metropolitan Library:





The precinct is 95 to 99 percent black. . . . There were 1,500 persons on the precinct rolls. We received three machines. In my own precinct in Clintonville, 19E, we always received three machines for 700 to 730 voters. Voter turnout in my own precinct has reached as high as 70 percent while I worked there. I interviewed many voters in 25 B and asked how many machines they had had in the past. Everyone who had a recollection said five or six. I called to get more machines and ended up being connected with Matt Damschroder, the Director of the Board of Elections. After a real hassle -- and someone here has it on videotape, he sent me a fourth machine which did not dent the length of the line. Fewer than 700 voted, although the turnout at the beginning of the day would cause anyone to predict a turnout of over 80 percent. This was a clear case of voter suppression by making voting an impossibility for anyone who had to go to work or anyone who was stuck at home caring for children or the elderly while another family member voted.

Allesondra Hernandez, Toledo:





What I witnessed when I had gotten there about 9 A.M. was a young African American woman who had come out nearly in tears. She was a new voter, very first registered, very excited to vote, and she had said that she had been bounced around to three different polling places, and this one had just turned her down again. People were there to help her out, and I was concerned. I started asking around to everyone else, and they had informed me earlier that day that she was not the only one, but there were at least three others who had been bounced around. Also earlier that day the polls had opened an hour late, did not open until about 7:30 A.M. The polling machines were locked in the principal's office. Hundreds of people were turned away, were forced to leave the line because they needed to be at school, they needed to be at work, or they needed to take their children to school. The people there who were assisting did the best they could to take down numbers and take down names, but I am assuming that a majority of those people could not come back because of work and/or because of school, because they had shown up to vote, and that was the time that they could vote, and that is why they were there. Also along the same lines, they ran out of pencils for those ballots.

Erin Deignan, Columbus:





I was an official poll worker judge in precinct Columbus 25 F, at the East Linden School. We had between 1100 and 1200 people on the voter registry there. We had three voting machines. We did the math. I am sure lots of other people did too. With the five-minute limit, 13 hours the polls were open, three machines, that is 468 voters, that is less than half of the people we had on the registry. We stayed open three hours past 7:30 and got about 550 people through, but we had one Board of Elections worker come in the morning. We asked if he could bring more machines. He is said more machines had been delivered, but they didn't have any more. We had another Board of Elections official come later in the day, and he said that in Upper Arlington he had seen 12 machines.

Matthew Segal, Gambier:





In this past election, Kenyon College students and the residents of Gambier, Ohio, had to endure some of the most extenuating voting circumstances in the entire country. As many of you may already know, because they had it on national media attention, Kenyon students and the residents of Gambier had to stand in line up to 10 to 12 hours in the rain, through a hot gym, and crowded narrow lines, making it extremely uncomfortable. As a result of this, voters were disenfranchised, having class to attend to, sports commitments, and midterms for the next day, which they had to study for. Obviously, it is a disgrace that kids who are being perpetually told the importance of voting, could not vote because they had other commitments and had to be put up with a 12-hour line.
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#20 Old 06-06-2007, 01:34 PM
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Silver, honestly I think most people would prefer it if their vote counted more than other peoples, especially yours. The fact that George Bush got the popular vote in 2004 also takes the piss out of your argument. Do you still love the popular vote system if it means George Bush got the most votes of any candidate in history?



George W. Bush \tRepublican 62,040,610 50.7%

John F. Kerry 59,028,111 48.3%



Otomik, put on your reading glasses. I said one person, one vote, all counting equally. You are not reading with comprehension.
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#21 Old 06-06-2007, 08:32 PM
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there were many many newspaper reports that i posted above. in addition, there was sworn testimony at hearings in Ohio. this isn't mere anecdotal evidence; rather, it is observation and testimony that hits upon recurring themes that is not so easily dismissed. just because the people in charge wished to make it appear nothing was wrong and did not follow up doesnt mean that wrongs did not occur. or, do you believe every governmental official never lies? lol:

so you're just going to spam more Bob Fitrakis anecdotes? nice how you and silver like to edit out authorship.

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#22 Old 06-06-2007, 08:49 PM
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Otomik, why dont you try leaving out the silly commments and instead address the point or do you have nothing of substance to say?



a couple of posts back I posted a compilation of snippets from NEWSPAPERS that reporters reported upon the situation in 2004. that has nothing to do with this dude you seem obsessed with. secondly, i didn't edit the author, i posted the excerpts of TESTIMONY from the HEARINGS which came from his article and gave a LINK to the entire article. what is the problem with that? lol really, get a grip.



like i said, taken together, the reporter's observations and the testimony of the individuals quoted above reveal a pattern of voting lines that were hours long and insufficient voting machines, insufficient poll workers and machine malfunctions in largely minority or Democrat districts. do try to find similar reports of the same kind of problems in affluent or Republican Ohio districts if you can.



that is the point, i dont think it is even necessary to speculate on whether the machines were rigged when there appears to be a lot of evidence that districts with certain profiles were subjected to insufficient provision of working machines. then there also was, of course, the Republican party's voter challenge effort in minority districts which was apparently designed to slow down voting in minority districts too. yeah, democracy in action in Ohio right?
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#23 Old 06-06-2007, 08:59 PM
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In my experience, it doesn't seem to matter what amount of fact is presented, supporters of a certain administration will always count it as opinion and dismiss it as such.



I really like the bumper sticker I've seen around a lot that says, "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention."
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#24 Old 06-06-2007, 09:32 PM
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how can a liberal reconcile the 2000 election fraud claims with the 2004 fraud claims. specifically, "it's the popular vote that really matters", etc.



obviously widespread voter fraud in ohio doesn't really matter unless it's enough to change the nation wide popular vote? there were states that were closer than ohio, but liberals don't focus on them because it's not enough to change the electoral totals.



think it was that huge? it's like 9/11 conspiracy ****.

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#25 Old 06-06-2007, 09:44 PM
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otomik, to whom are you speaking? 1) i have posted things supporting retaining the electoral college; 2) your saying that Ohio's problems are like 9/11 conspiracy theories doesn't make it so. in fact, you're full of it. 3) the 'liberal' label is ridiculous, do try to stop talking in code.



check out this link to the House Judiciary Committee Democrat Staff report regarding Ohio in 2004 (with the Republicans in majority, they had to issue a minority staff report because investigation just wasn't in fashion in the Congress when the other party was in power)



http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml



maybe Ohio's problems might not have been enough to change the outcome, but there certainly were major problems and it seems to be at least possible that the outcome could have been affected. but most importantly, what I said is definitely true: for a nation that likes to be called the beacon of democracy for the world, we sure do make it hard for some people to vote.
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#26 Old 06-06-2007, 10:07 PM
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My point is that I live and vote in Franklin county, Ohio. There were problems on 2004 election day. There were states that were closer, the focus on Ohio is politically charged with bull****.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Savannah View Post

for a nation that likes to be called the beacon of democracy for the world, we sure do make it hard for some people to vote.

**** that, i don't sympathize. ohio has mail-in ballots and no threats of suicide bombers. if you're too chicken **** to wait and vote, even when the exit polls or conspiracy theorists are telling you it won't matter, etc. then please don't, that way my vote counts more.

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#27 Old 06-06-2007, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savannah View Post

that has nothing to do with this dude you seem obsessed with.

bob fitrakis and harvey wasserman, they always panel on this local political debate show called Columbus on the Record (comes on after NOW and McLaughlin on the local pbs affiliate). Their smugness gets really annoying.

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#28 Old 06-07-2007, 07:31 AM
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Not like I'm surprised to hear this.



This is the past and there's nothing we can do about it. What can we do in the future? I'm sick of feeling powerless.
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#29 Old 06-07-2007, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otomik View Post

My point is that I live and vote in Franklin county, Ohio. There were problems on 2004 election day. There were states that were closer, the focus on Ohio is politically charged with bull****.



**** that, i don't sympathize. ohio has mail-in ballots and no threats of suicide bombers. if you're too chicken **** to wait and vote, even when the exit polls or conspiracy theorists are telling you it won't matter, etc. then please don't, that way my vote counts more.



really, take off the blinders: nobody goes down to vote anticipating lines of 2 to 7 hours. people have jobs, kids, school, etc. to take care of and to be suddenly faced with the proposition of interminable lines is ridiculous. if the USA was serious about democracy, it would make it as easy as possible for all those eligible to vote to be able to exercise their RIGHT to vote.



and, wtf is it with the Republican party of Ohio and their 'voter challenge' campaign in 2004 that was designed to focus upon minority voters, which the party admitted would necessarily cause chaos and delay at polling places. that kind of crap should be prevented too.
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