Hunter vs. Deer - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 05-24-2007, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

*which is what I think some are implying in the Falwell thread -- but for some reason I haven't seen you make this same criticism there

I just haven't been following that particular thread, maybe you have me confused for someone else, I haven't posted there yet.

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#32 Old 05-24-2007, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Kinda like 'harvesting' is euphemistic language. (And extremely commodifying language, too.)



Actually, it's not a euphemism. It's a term of art in population dynamics, is used consistently and pretty much universally worldwide among those who work with fish and wildlife populations, and is found in the scientific literature dating back well over a century.



OTOH - it may well be commidifying because, well, that's pretty much what you do when you model animal populations.
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#33 Old 05-24-2007, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

Actually, it's not a euphemism. It's a term of art in population dynamics, is used consistently and pretty much universally worldwide among those who work with fish and wildlife populations, and is found in the scientific literature dating back well over a century.

Yes, we've gone over this before. That a term is used in science doesn't mean that it's not euphemistic.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#34 Old 05-24-2007, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

Actually, it's (the term "harvesting")not a euphemism. It's a term of art in population dynamics, is used consistently and pretty much universally worldwide among those who work with fish and wildlife populations, and is found in the scientific literature dating back well over a century.



OTOH - it may well be commidifying because, well, that's pretty much what you do when you model animal populations.

(underlined text mine)



See, that's precisely the problem (for someone who is concerned about an animal's welfare or rights). Who really cares about a commodity's quality of life, or its life at all? Most criticism I've seen of the animal rights approach boils down to: AR is too extreme. But most other approaches aren't strong enough to reliably safeguard animals.



Sevenseas, I read Francione's blog entry about companion animals. I don't want to comment on it before I think about it a bit, but my first thought is, his essay is very consistent, or logical.

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#35 Old 05-24-2007, 05:10 PM
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i dont think its bloodthirsty at all.. if you dont consume the flesh of animals for the fact that a life is a life, and that their life is just as valuable as ours, then simply making a comment about how it woulda been better if the deer managed to do more damage is hardly bloodthirsty. things like this happens every day for no reason to helpless animals. All this animal was doing was defending his/her life and there is nothing wrong with that.



Thank you for that, exactly what I meant by my previous post. I didn't mean it seriously, like I wish the deer would have killed the poor guy. Believe me, I'm not some malicious bloodthirsty person who wishes anyone who harms animals dies a painful death themself. I guess some of you took it the wrong way. Never mind, just forget I said anything...
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#36 Old 05-26-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Yes, we've gone over this before. That a term is used in science doesn't mean that it's not euphemistic.



I know. But "A euphemism is an expression intended by the speaker to be less offensive, disturbing, or troubling to the listener than the word or phrase it replaces..."



Since the term has been in common use for well over 100 years, are you contending that society found discussion of hunting and fishing so "offensive, disturbing, or troubling" in the late 19th century that less emotionally charged language was adopted in response?



Really, I think your argument is more akin to some of the current pro-life rhetoric that claims the term "abortion" is a euphemism.
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#37 Old 05-26-2007, 02:18 PM
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Well then I'll say that it is an expression that is "less offensive, disturbing or troubling to the listener" than another word with the same reference. I'll make that concenssion with pleasure as I don't see much difference.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#38 Old 05-26-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

than another word with the same reference.



Which word(s)?
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#39 Old 05-26-2007, 03:38 PM
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Hunting, killing.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#40 Old 05-26-2007, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Hunting, killing.



Those won't work - you need more precision. A term that distinguishes quantifiable, directed, human controlled and induced death from other sources of mortality (including death that results from other human activities).
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#41 Old 05-26-2007, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

A term that distinguishes quantifiable, directed, human controlled and induced death from other sources of mortality (including death that results from other human activities).

Hunting and killing are such terms in context.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#42 Old 05-26-2007, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Hunting and killing are such terms in context.



Only if parsing the source of mortality is of no importance to you.
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#43 Old 05-26-2007, 04:18 PM
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Huh? If someone says "we went hunting and killed X birds", how is the source of mortality unclear?

"and I stand

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#44 Old 05-26-2007, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Huh? If someone says "we went hunting and killed X birds", how is the source of mortality unclear?

Now the you inserted the words into a phrase, it's a little more precise.



Let's see - next time I'm working with a population model, I'll have to consider recruitment, immigration, emigration, growth, natural mortality, and "we went fishing and killed X fish" mortality.
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#45 Old 05-26-2007, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

Now the you inserted the words into a phrase, it's a little more precise.

When 'harvest' isn't inserted in any kind of phrase, it doesn't mean much either.



Quote:
Let's see - next time I'm working with a population model, I'll have to consider recruitment, immigration, emigration, growth, natural mortality, and "we went fishing and killed X fish" mortality.

1) 'Harvest' isn't used only in scientific population studies 2) replacing expressions will be easy to find. They can be longer if necessary.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#46 Old 05-26-2007, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

When 'harvest' isn't inserted in any kind of phrase, it doesn't mean much either.

Yeah, but I was asking for a term to replace it. Not half a sentence. For instance, if I put together a table, and label one of the columns 'harvest', no further explanation is necessary.



Quote:
1) 'Harvest' isn't used only in scientific population studies

Of course not - it's used in law and regulation, biometrics, international treaties. Even the U.N. uses it.



Quote:
2) replacing expressions will be easy to find.

and... ?



Quote:
They can be longer if necessary.

But what's to be gained? e.g.



They (nominative plural of he, she, and it) can (to have the possibility) be (to take place; happen; occur) longer (Beyond a given boundary, limit, or goal) if (in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that) necessary (being essential, indispensable, or requisite).



Communications tend to get a little unwieldly if you start replacing words with their definitions.
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#47 Old 05-27-2007, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

Yeah, but I was asking for a term to replace it. Not half a sentence.

It's not replaced by "half a sentence". There are many contexts (of everyday use) in which 'harvest' is used but replacing it with 'killing' or 'hunting' will preserve the meaning.



Quote:
and... ?

So you will not have to find the replacement from an example I gave of a context in which 'hunting' has the same meaning.



Quote:
But what's to be gained? e.g.

Avoiding the extremely commodifying connotations of the word.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#48 Old 05-27-2007, 12:23 AM
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Provide an example of a sentence in which 'harvest' is used and 'hunt' will not do.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#49 Old 05-27-2007, 02:29 PM
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I am going to harvest the souls of the damned.
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#50 Old 05-27-2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie View Post

I am going to harvest the souls of the damned.

I am going to hunt the souls of the damned. Makes sense to me, like a vampire hunter or something.

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#51 Old 05-27-2007, 04:04 PM
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I don't understand why so many veg*ns hate hunters but not regular omnis. I mean, is a person who commits a murder really that much worse than a person who hires as assassin to murder for them? (I don't hate omnis.)
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#52 Old 05-27-2007, 04:11 PM
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I mean, is a person who commits a murder really that much worse than a person who hires as assassin to murder for them? (I don't hate omnis.)

To the extent that committing a murder directly requires vastly different psychological characteristics than hiring an assassin, yes.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#53 Old 05-27-2007, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

I am going to hunt the souls of the damned. Makes sense to me, like a vampire hunter or something.



Harvest just sounds better when it comes to souls.
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#54 Old 05-28-2007, 12:41 PM
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My 8yo nephew and a couple of his friends were telling other kids at school they were going to steal their souls. I guess they got it from a movie they saw or something. Anyway, he goes to a Catholic school so it didn't go over too well with the teacher. They ended up spending their recess the next 3 days cleaning up the playground.



Totally OT, but I thought it was funny.
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#55 Old 05-28-2007, 02:24 PM
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#56 Old 05-29-2007, 02:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Samantha* View Post

I don't understand why so many veg*ns hate hunters but not regular omnis. I mean, is a person who commits a murder really that much worse than a person who hires as assassin to murder for them? (I don't hate omnis.)




The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#57 Old 05-29-2007, 06:46 PM
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For what it's worth, I'd prefer meat be hunted than raised agriculturally.
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