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#31 Old 04-06-2007, 11:18 AM
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In that case, why not up the ante and ban free speech, freedom of religion and freedom of association while you're at it?



Those bans would all serve to give more social control (obviously a good thing), and none of them would limit a persons "right to life", either.

Drugs would make a much better comparison. I take it you are for the decriminalization of all drugs.

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#32 Old 04-06-2007, 11:26 AM
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On the topic of firearms, I wrote an interesting story yesterday about an unarmed burglar and an armed homeowner.



(Mind you, this is all according to the police report. So insert "allegedly" in all the right places.)



The homeowner suspected the man he hired to do lawn work was stealing stuff from the house when the homeowner would go out of town. He couldn't prove it, so he decided to set a trap. He told the lawn worker he would be out of town last weekend. Instead, he and a friend hid inside the house and waited for the burglary. Sure enough, the lawn worker use a key he wasn't supposed to have and came inside the house. When the burglar went into the homeowner's den, the homeowner and the friend confronted him. The homeowner pulled a gun on the unarmed burglar and called the police. He held the gun on him until the police arrived and arrested the burglar.



Here's where it gets more complicated. Though the burglar wasn't carrying any weapons, he does have a concealed-carry permit. Felonies and violence-related convictions would revoke the permit, the sheriff told me. As of yesterday the permit was revoked because of a charge from March of forgery and attempt to illegally procure prescription drugs, which the sheriff didn't know about until the burglary came up.



Concealed-carry is part of the whole bearing-arms issue, but it's obviously not the whole thing.

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#33 Old 04-06-2007, 11:30 AM
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In my state it would be illegal for the homeowner to hold him at gun point until the police got there and I suspect the "trap" waiting with a gun would also be illegal.
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#34 Old 04-06-2007, 11:37 AM
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I'm from the UK so the second amendment seems madness to me in the first place. I often wonder why so many Americans think their country would be overtaken by criminals and descend into chaos if the second amendment was abolished when other countries are clearly fine without such a law.



That being said, I don't know if abolishing would achieve anything positive. I personally find the thought of people in the street having concealed weapons disturbing, permit or no, but I don't plan on living in the US anytime soon.
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#35 Old 04-06-2007, 11:58 AM
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The homeowner suspected the man he hired to do lawn work was stealing stuff from the house when the homeowner would go out of town. He couldn't prove it, so he decided to set a trap. He told the lawn worker he would be out of town last weekend. Instead, he and a friend hid inside the house and waited for the burglary. Sure enough, the lawn worker use a key he wasn't supposed to have and came inside the house. When the burglar went into the homeowner's den, the homeowner and the friend confronted him. The homeowner pulled a gun on the unarmed burglar and called the police. He held the gun on him until the police arrived and arrested the burglar.



Here's where it gets more complicated. Though the burglar wasn't carrying any weapons, he does have a concealed-carry permit. He also had a DUI on his record, which the sheriff told me doesn't disqualify him from state concealed-carry standards. Felonies and violence-related convictions would revoke the permit. As of yesterday the permit was revoked because of a charge from March of forgery and attempt to illegally procure prescription drugs, which the sheriff didn't know about until the burglary came up.



Concealed-carry is part of the whole bearing-arms issue, but it's obviously not the whole thing.



I think the homeowner behaved a bit foolishly in personally confronting a burglar who could have been armed. Getting the same information by installing a hidden camera would have been a lot more prudent IMHO.
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#36 Old 04-06-2007, 12:00 PM
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Summer is almost here........Don't worry it will wash out in the pool or ocean.
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#37 Old 04-06-2007, 12:08 PM
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In my state it would be illegal for the homeowner to hold him at gun point until the police got there and I suspect the "trap" waiting with a gun would also be illegal.



I am not a lawyer. But it is my impression that most states have laws that allow a citizen to make a "citizen's arrest" of another person if the citizen witnesses that person committing a felony.



I don't see how the "trap" of waiting with the gun would be considered illegal.

There are laws (actually court decisions) against "entrapment," but this only applies when the person has no pre-existing disposition to commit a crime and the police (or whomever) supposedly "entice" him into comitting a crime he otherwise would not have comitted. Just telling the lawn guy that the owner would not be home would not be considered "enticing" him to comit a burglary.
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#38 Old 04-06-2007, 12:23 PM
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NC has no citizens arrest and it's (afaik) illegal to hold people at gun point if you're not law enforcement. You're allowed to pull a gun only in instances where it would be legal to shoot someone. You can shoot someone only if you have reasonable fear for you life or the life of someone else, or a rape, severe beating, etc. will take place if you don't shoot. Protecting the stuff in your house isn't something you can legally shoot a criminal over.



You're not even allowed to shoot "warning shots" here because if you have time to shoot and aim for knees, etc. you're not really in danger of your life and you had time to do something else.



Waiting for a non-violent criminal with a gun and then holding him at gun point would put you on shakey legal ground here.





ETA: in NC one can "detain" a person caught committing a felony but the law is not quite a generous to the person doing the "detaining" as a citizens arrest law.
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#39 Old 04-06-2007, 12:34 PM
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If you are in a restaurant and some gunman starts shooting everyone in sight and you are next, aren't you hoping someone in the room has a gun and is going to shoot him?



When you make it criminal to carry a gun, then only criminals will carry guns.



Yes, because things like that happen every day. And as to your second bit of logic, well, that could go for anything. If you make it criminal to have long hair, then only criminals will have long hair.

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#40 Old 04-06-2007, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Shantih View Post

I'm from the UK so the second amendment seems madness to me in the first place. I often wonder why so many Americans think their country would be overtaken by criminals and descend into chaos if the second amendment was abolished when other countries are clearly fine without such a law.





Ok. so we have gun crime here in the UK but I bet it isn't as much percentage wise as the US. If someone can show me proof that percentage wise to the population that the US has less gun crime that the UK I will happily withdraw that comment.

It does get pretty stupid here sometimes though. There was a farmer who used he shotgun (he had a license) to stop a burglar armed with a knive. The burglar then sued the farmer for shooting him and won!
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#41 Old 04-06-2007, 12:58 PM
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There was a farmer who used he shotgun (he had a license) to stop a burglar armed with a knive.

One thing that would worry me about guns is that -- and I base this largely on VB -- the notion of private property seems to be so strong in the US that there are many dangerous people who would be ready to shoot everyone for the slightest trespassing. (Not that the particular example you cite is necessarily like this.)

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#42 Old 04-06-2007, 12:59 PM
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Drugs would make a much better comparison. I take it you are for the decriminalization of all drugs.



I am.
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#43 Old 04-06-2007, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Shantih View Post

I'm from the UK so the second amendment seems madness to me in the first place. I often wonder why so many Americans think their country would be overtaken by criminals and descend into chaos if the second amendment was abolished when other countries are clearly fine without such a law.



The 2nd Amendment wasn't writen to protect the citizens from criminals. It was written to protect the citizens from the government.
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#44 Old 04-06-2007, 01:08 PM
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I am.

Yeah I didn't intend it as a reductio ad absurdum (since I don't have a position on drugs that would make decriminalization of drugs an absurdity), more as a question of internal consistency.

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#45 Old 04-06-2007, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Shantih View Post

I'm from the UK so the second amendment seems madness to me in the first place.

The for the 2nd amendment came from the English Bill of Rights 1689.



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Originally Posted by Joe View Post

I am not a lawyer. But it is my impression that most states have laws that allow a citizen to make a "citizen's arrest" of another person if the citizen witnesses that person committing a felony.

cops can use deadly force as part of enforcing law (minor things like holding people at gunpoint). citizens can only use deadly force to protect a life, no brandishing or threatening, an average joe should only draw when they intend to shoot. attempting a citizens arrest is likely to get you sued, it's an anachronism worth forgetting.



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Yeah I didn't intend it as a reduction ad absurdum (since I don't have a position on drugs that would make decriminalization of drugs an absurdity), more as a question of internal consistency.

A lot of people for gun rights are somewhat libertarian, as am I. But doesn't that just come back to you saying that people can live with the consequences of drug misuse yet not the consequences of gun misuse? (especially considering that most deaths where guns are used are suicides).

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#46 Old 04-06-2007, 01:16 PM
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To comment further on the "why not ban free speech" post, I'm not sure what "banning free speech" means. You can restrict freedom of speech in various ways. Preventing people from possessing a particular product -- guns -- is comparable to a specific restriction on free speech, not anything more. And there are specific restrictions on free speech, at least where I come from, that I accept.

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#47 Old 04-06-2007, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

To comment further on the "why not ban free speech" post, I'm not sure what "banning free speech" means. You can restrict freedom of speech in various ways. Preventing people from possessing a particular product -- guns -- is comparable to a specific restriction on free speech, not anything more. And there are specific restrictions on free speech, at least where I come from, that I accept.

I disagree and your post made me throw up in the back of my mouth just a bit.

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#48 Old 04-06-2007, 01:32 PM
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But doesn't that just come back to you saying that people can live with the consequences of drug misuse yet not the consequences of gun misuse? (especially considering that most deaths where guns are used are suicides).

Even if most gun-related deaths are suicides, seems to me that an object shooting a lethal projectile at a target is much more oriented towards harming others than LSD or heroin which primarily harm the user him/herself.



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With what part?

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#49 Old 04-06-2007, 01:45 PM
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Yes, because things like that happen every day. And as to your second bit of logic, well, that could go for anything. If you make it criminal to have long hair, then only criminals will have long hair.



It happens enough for me to want to protect myself and my loved ones, and not to mention innocent bystanders. Brakes rarely fail, but every vehicle is still equipped with an emergency/parking brake. Houses rarely catch on fire, but will still use smoke detectors, fire alarms, sprinklers, etc.



Your logic suggests that we should never be preapred for the worst because the worst rarely happens. Good luck with that.



As for the second part, you are correct. If long hair was made criminal, then the law abiding citizens would cut their hair and only criminals would have long hair. Unless of course they didn't want to be harassed by police, so they would tuck it under a ball cap and no one would know they are criminals.



Should we ban martial arts as well? How about pepper spray and mace? Lets just make everything out of soft cushy stuff. Then no one will get hurt, right?



Guns are a deterrent to crime. Criminals, armed or not, will think twice about holding up a store if they think someone may be armed and ready to shoot them. I have a laser site on my gun. Not so that I am better able to hit my target, because I can hit it fine without it, but rather that it is another level of deterrence. A criminal who sees a pulsating dot on their chest is likely to give up right away if they value their life.
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#50 Old 04-06-2007, 01:48 PM
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Even if most gun-related deaths are suicides, seems to me that an object shooting a lethal projectile at a target is much more oriented towards harming others than LSD or heroin which primarily harm the user him/herself.

I don't want to get bogged down in the minutiae of what drugs should be decriminalized so lets just switch our example self destructive drug to crack cocaine. smoking crack is taking a gun to your head and pulling the trigger, there is no positive use. an actual firearm can be used in suicides and most gun deaths are suicides but it has other positive uses like hunting, shooting sports, self defense and even collective defense.

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#51 Old 04-06-2007, 01:57 PM
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It happens enough for me to want to protect myself and my loved ones, and not to mention innocent bystanders. Brakes rarely fail, but every vehicle is still equipped with an emergency/parking brake. Houses rarely catch on fire, but will still use smoke detectors, fire alarms, sprinklers, etc.



Your logic suggests that we should never be prepared for the worst because the worst rarely happens. Good luck with that.



One thing that concerns me about your example earlier, about hoping someone in the restaurant has a gun in case a crazed gunman enters and starts shooting the place up, is, what if your hero/heroine messes up? What if they miss, the shot ricochets, and kills one of the innocent bystanders? It's rare for someone to die from a misfire of mace, or using martial arts, but a misfired gun is deadly. Also, I'd rather hope someone had a cell phone and was calling the police.
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#52 Old 04-06-2007, 02:05 PM
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shooting sports, self defense and even collective defense.

Or Timmy getting back at the boys at school, or Bubba capping some hippies in his yard.

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#53 Old 04-06-2007, 02:07 PM
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One thing that concerns me about your example earlier, about hoping someone in the restaurant has a gun in case a crazed gunman enters and starts shooting the place up, is, what if your hero/heroine messes up? What if they miss, the shot ricochets, and kills one of the innocent bystanders? It's rare for someone to die from a misfire of mace, or using martial arts, but a misfired gun is deadly. Also, I'd rather hope someone had a cell phone and was calling the police.

The crazed gunman shot you in the head either before you called the police or after while the police were en route. Game Over

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#54 Old 04-06-2007, 02:09 PM
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that said, I'm not sure how I feel.
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#55 Old 04-06-2007, 02:11 PM
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Or Timmy getting back at the boys at school, or Bubba capping some hippies in his yard.

so you forfeit your argument?

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#56 Old 04-06-2007, 02:11 PM
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The crazed gunman shot you in the head either before you called the police or after while the police were en route. Game Over

speculative scenario #2: an armed robber enters a store. Instead of him being arrested by the police on the way out, he sees the clerk take the gun from under the desk, panics and shoots everyone in sight.

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#57 Old 04-06-2007, 02:13 PM
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so you forfeit your argument?

What argument? That guns are more oriented toward harming others than drugs, and so banning them is somewhat different? No, why?

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#58 Old 04-06-2007, 02:25 PM
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What argument? That guns are more oriented toward harming others than drugs, and so banning them is somewhat different? No, why?

you're going to have to return to it and explain it in depth responding to my explanation of my views on the same subject but instead of that you appear to be moving on into other examples. cut n run

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#59 Old 04-06-2007, 02:38 PM
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If you're referring to your comment about crack, I'd either like some source for the claim that it kills you on the spot (which is what shooting yourself in the head does) or then a clarification of what you mean by "no positive use". But even then, something being necessarily harmful to the user is different from something commonly used to harm non-users: it is possible to ban only the latter by opposing paternalism.

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#60 Old 04-06-2007, 03:09 PM
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One thing that concerns me about your example earlier, about hoping someone in the restaurant has a gun in case a crazed gunman enters and starts shooting the place up, is, what if your hero/heroine messes up? What if they miss, the shot ricochets, and kills one of the innocent bystanders? It's rare for someone to die from a misfire of mace, or using martial arts, but a misfired gun is deadly. Also, I'd rather hope someone had a cell phone and was calling the police.



It is possible that a hero/heroine misses and kills an innocent bystander, but if the gunman was going to kill everyone anyway, then many people still have the opportunity to live. Most people who obtain CCW's are responsible enough to practice with their firearm and keep their accuracy up. The same can't be said for most people who drive cars.



Most people who carry concealed realize that they are likely only to draw when someone else is in danger. If someone has a gun on me, I will never be able to draw my weapon. I would be shot dead before I got my shirt untucked. If I felt that killing people was not their intent, such as in a robbery, I would do all I could to help them get what they want and leave. Then call the police. If they are unstable and they have already killed people, then I rush them to disarm. A knife is a different story.



I hope that if i ever have to draw a weapon, that I never have to fire. However, I am prepared to do so if I have no other options.
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