holocaust/slaughterhouses (merged with "Why slaughterhouses are like Auschwitz) - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-07-2007, 03:16 PM
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I recently read the book Night http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_%28book%29 by Elie Wiesel and it was about the life of a jew during the holocaust, umm if I'm not mistaken in the Austwitz camp (prolly spelled wrong) anyway the book talks about things that are to controversial to mention, anyway after I read the book I had a sick sense that its the same way for slaughterhouses and now I'm even more sickened by meat, if anyone is interested trust me it's a great read and maybe it'll be useful to people just staring veg*an or something, just thought i'd mention it.
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#2 Old 03-07-2007, 04:49 PM
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I'm only 16 and still in High-school and we're doing something on the holocaust. My students are disgusted by it of course, as am I. I'm not saying that becasue they eat animals they're Nazi's, not at all, in fact I hold no contempt against them for any of this, but I keep wondering "do these people realize that this is what's happening to animals every day
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#3 Old 03-07-2007, 05:01 PM
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I read that book a few years ago in middle school. I think they can easily be connected.
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#4 Old 03-07-2007, 05:08 PM
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FYI, be careful of such comparisons. Because the general population does not consider non-human animals to have the same value as humans, many people find the comparison of slaughterhouses to Nazi death camps to be offensive in that they see it as equating Jews with non-human animals. The same is true of comparing our society's treatment of non-human animals to the history of slavery in the U.S. People often see that comparison as demeaning to African Americans. Although you obviously intend no offense, you should just know that a lot of people would see your comparison as demeaning to Jews.
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#5 Old 03-07-2007, 05:10 PM
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I don't know if you were talking directly to me but if you were I am sorry
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#6 Old 03-07-2007, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LedZepplin4life View Post

I don't know if you were talking directly to me but if you were I am sorry



No, not to you specifically, and nothing to be sorry for. I just wanted to point out how such comparisons can be misunderstood by people who don't believe animals deserve the same rights as humans (ie. the majority of people in the world).
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#7 Old 03-07-2007, 05:22 PM
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Oh, OK. ANd yea, I agree with you once I realize how wrong killing animals is it's hard to remember that very few other people think the same way
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#8 Old 03-07-2007, 05:44 PM
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ive used this reference for quite some time now! but it was hard for me to put it in proper wording. If you ever watched the movie Earthlings which is on youtube, he explains the haulocaust / slaughterhouse thing perfectly
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#9 Old 03-07-2007, 07:43 PM
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There is a smiliar book by Charles Patterson entitled "Eternal Treblinka: Our Treatment of Animals and the Holocaust" which gives direct links and shows the huge similarities between how we treat non-human animals today and how the holocaust victims were treated.



It's a fantastic read, but as eggplant pointed out it can be very controversial to compare these two things, most people who aren't into animal rights will find the comparisson offensive, no matter how accurate it is.

"Through the centuries, we have projected onto the wolf the qualities we most despise and fear in ourselves." ~ Barry Lopez.
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#10 Old 03-07-2007, 08:08 PM
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I'm vegan and I find the comparison to be offensive. The motives behind slaughterhouses and concentration camps are completely different. I can't even begin to equate the two. Yes, both the slaughter industry and the Holocaust involve needless deaths and poor conditions but claiming the two are parallel is just as ridiculous. Take away my title as vegan or do what you want, but I still value human lives more than animal lives and I view the holocaust as a far greater atrocity than any animal slaughterhouse.
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#11 Old 03-07-2007, 08:22 PM
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Death is death, to me. It's all the same.
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#12 Old 03-07-2007, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misq17 View Post

I'm vegan and I find the comparison to be offensive. The motives behind slaughterhouses and concentration camps are completely different. I can't even begin to equate the two. Yes, both the slaughter industry and the Holocaust involve needless deaths and poor conditions but claiming the two are parallel is just as ridiculous. Take away my title as vegan or do what you want, but I still value human lives more than animal lives and I view the holocaust as a far greater atrocity than any animal slaughterhouse.



Many people in the slaughter industry or people who support the slaughter industry view those animals as sub-human and not worth worrying about.

With the Holocaust, many people who were part of that viewed those people as sub-human and not worth worrying about.



The two situations are not exactly the same, but there are parallels.

I believe everything.
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#13 Old 03-07-2007, 08:43 PM
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I'm not sure if it can be a fair comparison when (according to Wikipedia) estimates about Holocaust victims are between 9-18 million whereas in the year 2005 and in the US alone, over 10 billion individuals were slaughtered.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#14 Old 03-07-2007, 08:55 PM
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Oh snap.
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#15 Old 03-07-2007, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nogardsram View Post

Many people in the slaughter industry or people who support the slaughter industry view those animals as sub-human and not worth worrying about.

With the Holocaust, many people who were part of that viewed those people as sub-human and not worth worrying about.



The two situations are not exactly the same, but there are parallels.



Jews, gypsies, and slavs were/are humans.



Animals are not. The comparison pretty much ends right there.
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#16 Old 03-07-2007, 09:58 PM
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Death is death, to me. It's all the same.



Really? So the death of a mosquito is the same as the death of your mother?
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#17 Old 03-07-2007, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misq17 View Post

I'm vegan and I find the comparison to be offensive. The motives behind slaughterhouses and concentration camps are completely different. I can't even begin to equate the two. Yes, both the slaughter industry and the Holocaust involve needless deaths and poor conditions but claiming the two are parallel is just as ridiculous. Take away my title as vegan or do what you want, but I still value human lives more than animal lives and I view the holocaust as a far greater atrocity than any animal slaughterhouse.



I'm just going to ditto this...



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Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

Really? So the death of a mosquito is the same as the death of your mother?



And this...
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#18 Old 03-07-2007, 10:23 PM
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The comparison has been made. A lot of people feel offended by this comparison feeling that anyone making such a comparison is oblivious to the impact the Holocaust had on the Jews. Ironically, it exposes how oblivious we are to the suffering we cause other creatures. I can not claim to know either, except to say that no animal -- human or otherwise -- deserves to have their life taken away in life and death.
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#19 Old 03-07-2007, 10:25 PM
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Moving this to the Heap to allow room for debate. Good topic.
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#20 Old 03-07-2007, 10:44 PM
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I do not value human lives as more important than the lives of animals. And I am not offended by slaughterhouses being compared to anything. What is going on in those places is sickening and wrong. We all feel the same pain and we all deserve to live. If I were put in the position to either save a human I do not know or a dog I do not know, I would save the dog. Hmm, maybe I see animals as more important, but thats how I feel. I really dont like humans very much.
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#21 Old 03-07-2007, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by froggythefrog View Post

no animal -- human or otherwise -- deserves to have their life taken away in life and death.



While I agree, genocide isn't the same as killing animals.

Why?



We don't raise & kill animals to wipe them from the earth; humans kill animals for food (and yes, I know it's not necessary for survival). There is hate behind one and indifference behind the other.
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#22 Old 03-07-2007, 10:48 PM
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If I were put in the position to either save a human I do not know or a dog I do not know, I would save the dog. Hmm, maybe I see animals as more important, but thats how I feel. I really dont like humans very much.



That's fine if you feel that way, but I hope you realize that most people value their loved ones over random animals. Given the choice of saving a random dog over, say, a wife, they'd pick the wife. It's kind of a given.
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#23 Old 03-07-2007, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

While I agree, genocide isn't the same as killing animals.

Why?



We don't raise & kill animals to wipe them from the earth; humans kill animals for food (and yes, I know it's not necessary for survival). There is hate behind one and indifference behind the other.



good points both Amy.
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#24 Old 03-07-2007, 11:56 PM
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Whoa sorry to upset anyone if I did, I didn't mean to compare humans to animals. Wow, lets see what I can get out of Mein Kampf. Good debate though.
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#25 Old 03-08-2007, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post


We don't raise & kill animals to wipe them from the earth; humans kill animals for food (and yes, I know it's not necessary for survival). There is hate behind one and indifference behind the other.

"The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity."

-George Bernard Shaw



Quote:
That's fine if you feel that way, but I hope you realize that most people value their loved ones over random animals. Given the choice of saving a random dog over, say, a wife, they'd pick the wife. It's kind of a given.

I would save my loved ones over random humans too.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#26 Old 03-08-2007, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonAmy View Post

While I agree, genocide isn't the same as killing animals.

Why?



We don't raise & kill animals to wipe them from the earth; humans kill animals for food (and yes, I know it's not necessary for survival). There is hate behind one and indifference behind the other.



But you can say that the holocaust was the product of a sick mind and the killing eventually came to an end. Whereas the slaughter of animals is on going. And as you said, it's not even necessary for our survival anymore, its death for no reason at all. The longer it goes on the more Im able to equate the holocaust and slaughterhouses.
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#27 Old 03-08-2007, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by misq17 View Post

I'm vegan and I find the comparison to be offensive. The motives behind slaughterhouses and concentration camps are completely different. I can't even begin to equate the two. Yes, both the slaughter industry and the Holocaust involve needless deaths and poor conditions but claiming the two are parallel is just as ridiculous. Take away my title as vegan or do what you want, but I still value human lives more than animal lives and I view the holocaust as a far greater atrocity than any animal slaughterhouse.

I agree with that.

I think the holocaust/slaughterhouse comparison should not be made (and it's one thing I really have to criticise about the "Earthlings" film), because (without valueing animals less than humans or anything) I think it is offensive. Plus: A comparison is not necessary! There are enough facts/arguments about animal slaughter to come to the conclusion (from these facts alone) that the whole process is cruel and unnecessary and everything, even without comparing animal slaughter to any other atrocities at all, let alone compare it to genocide.
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#28 Old 03-08-2007, 06:45 AM
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While I agree that the holocaust was done for different reasons, the holocaust was done for fear, hatred and power, and this is done for power, ignorance and greed, I do think they are just as bad.



If anything what we do to animals is worse. In the holocaust there were millions of individuals killed, but in this there are billions, every year.



I am not sepciesist, and if a non-human animal can suffer the same as a human, then I see no reason to treat the nonhumans suffering as less important than the humans suffering.



I also see not reason that just because they're done for different reaons, the one should be taken less seriously than the other. It doesn't really make much difference to the victims WHY they're being tortured and killed.



(that's all IMHO of course).

"Through the centuries, we have projected onto the wolf the qualities we most despise and fear in ourselves." ~ Barry Lopez.
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#29 Old 03-08-2007, 07:43 AM
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You guys make some great points and I agree. I can understand why some would want to use the comparison but I don't think it's necessary. No doubt that genocide and indifference to life via animal slaughter are equally horrific but I don't think the psychology behind the two is the same.
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#30 Old 03-08-2007, 08:06 AM
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I think the reasons/psychology behind the Holocaust are more complex than most people are stating. I also think reasons behind slaughterhouses vary and can be pretty complex. And I agree that there are differences between the two, but there are also similarities. There was also indifference in the Holocaust, and there is hatred in slaughterhouses.



In comparing anything, it does not cheapen, lessen, or belittle either thing being compared. I think it's unfortunate people are offended by such comparisons.



Even humans are animals. What makes human suffering or death so much more special or worse than any other creature's death or suffering?

I believe everything.
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