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#1 Old 02-01-2007, 12:25 PM
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Hi everyone, we've been asked to create a new thread from 'The Plot Thickens' because we've gone off track, so here it is. I'll start it with my last post...
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#2 Old 02-01-2007, 12:26 PM
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Red and Tame, when I said that I didn't want to hear that I needed to do more research, what I meant is that I'm isck of people saying that instead of actually posting answers to questions. Mine was: why do you think it's reasonable (if indeed you do) that Israel is occupying that territory?



I was hoping for actual answers to the question.



So far I have from Tame that: Israel 'knows' that if they gave up the territories, then the enemy would just try to invade their original land.



And from Havocjohn that: there were different borders (which I assume he's saying included at least some of the now occupied territory) before Israel invaded in 1967.



Please, both of you correct me if I'm wrong. However, to answer both of those points, how can one justify current wrong actions with past or potential future wrong actions by others? It just doesn't seem like Israel, who I feel like is in the position of power in the conflict, since they have all the money, guns, current occupation, and powerful allies, could do more towards peace.



Edit: Thanks Gaya, that's exactly what I was getting at.
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#3 Old 02-01-2007, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gas4 View Post

Red and Tame, when I said that I didn't want to hear that I needed to do more research, what I meant is that I'm isck of people saying that instead of actually posting answers to questions. Mine was: why do you think it's reasonable (if indeed you do) that Israel is occupying that territory?



If you don't know the history of the region, then how could you possibly understand the reasons why the nations involved do what they do?





Quote:
Please, both of you correct me if I'm wrong. However, to answer both of those points, how can one justify current wrong actions with past or potential future wrong actions by others? It just doesn't seem like Israel, who I feel like is in the position of power in the conflict, since they have all the money, guns, current occupation, and powerful allies, could do more towards peace.





See, you just made my point.

First of all, I don't agree that all of Israel's current actions are "wrong." They are in response to current actions by the other players.

If you don't understand the history and nature of the conflict, then how dare you hold an opinion or demand answers.
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#4 Old 02-01-2007, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tame View Post

HJ is correct. Exactly what does Iran have to fear from Israel?

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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

in response to number 2; I am not sure where you have drawn the conclusion that Israel sees Iran as it's arch enemy. Israel has never attacked Iran.

No, Israel hasn't attacked Iran. But Iran still has many enemies, and Israel is one of these. Just to mention a few points:



Israel has threatened to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities using mini-nukes:

Revealed: Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran



USA and several European countries supplied Iraq with chemical, biological and conventional weapons during the Iran-Iraq war.



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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

The only nation that seems to think they are arch enemies is Iran. Who's leaders have repeatedly stated Israel and Jews have no right to exist. If anyone should be worried about a nation developing nukes it should be Israel worried about a neighbor that repeatedly expresses a desire to see her and her citizens dead.

They have said that Jews don't have a right to exist? I've never seen that. I think you are exaggerating somewhat, but I do agree that the rhetoric of Iran's current president has been very extreme. The thing is, though, that this is just rhetoric and aimed more for the domestic audience than the international community. Keep in mind that the Grand Ayatollah has been criticising the president for making these provokative statements.

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#5 Old 02-01-2007, 02:20 PM
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USA and several European countries supplied Iraq with chemical, biological and conventional weapons during the Iran-Iraq war.



I suggest you look at Iraq's military hardware sometime. Chinese and Soviet Bloc by and large.

Also, please cite a source where the US shipped a chemical or biological weapon to Iraq. And no, dual use items that can be used to manufacture said items are not weapons



Quote:

They have said that Jews don't have a right to exist? I've never seen that.



Not sure how you have missed that.



Quote:
I think you are exaggerating somewhat, but I do agree that the rhetoric of Iran's current president has been very extreme.



Nope, not exaggerating.



Quote:
The thing is, though, that this is just rhetoric and aimed more for the domestic audience than the international community.



When the nation involed supplies terrorists that attack the nation at which the "rhetoric" is aimed, it becomes a bit more than just rhetoric.



Quote:
Keep in mind that the Grand Ayatollah has been criticising the president for making these provokative statements.



And I do applaud that recent development. Now, if Iran would quit supplying those groups aimed at wiping out Israel, we would be on to something.



Seriously, your ability to excuse anything those nutjobs do is amazing.
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#6 Old 02-01-2007, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gas4 View Post

Red and Tame, when I said that I didn't want to hear that I needed to do more research, what I meant is that I'm isck of people saying that instead of actually posting answers to questions. Mine was: why do you think it's reasonable (if indeed you do) that Israel is occupying that territory?



I was hoping for actual answers to the question.



So far I have from Tame that: Israel 'knows' that if they gave up the territories, then the enemy would just try to invade their original land.



And from Havocjohn that: there were different borders (which I assume he's saying included at least some of the now occupied territory) before Israel invaded in 1967.



Please, both of you correct me if I'm wrong. However, to answer both of those points, how can one justify current wrong actions with past or potential future wrong actions by others? It just doesn't seem like Israel, who I feel like is in the position of power in the conflict, since they have all the money, guns, current occupation, and powerful allies, could do more towards peace.



Edit: Thanks Gaya, that's exactly what I was getting at.



technically Israel never invaded Syria. Syria attacked Israel on 2 occasions (along with a couple of her neighbors) and Israel kicked the [email protected]# out of them all by her lonesome, pushing them back into their own territory which is how the Golan Heights fell under Israeli control. If Syria would have accepted resolution 242, Israel would have probably ceded the land back as they did with the other aggressor nations whom's butts were kicked.



As has been suggested elsewhere, there is a lot to this situation then what has been selectively shown in recent yrs.



Gas4 wrote: "However, to answer both of those points, how can one justify current wrong actions with past or potential future wrong actions by others? It just doesn't seem like Israel, who I feel like is in the position of power in the conflict, since they have all the money, guns, current occupation, and powerful allies, could do more towards peace."



How many chances do you give your neighbors? If your neighbor keeps throwing rocks at your house how many windows do you yourself pay for before doing something about it? How many times do Israel's neighbors get to invade and attack before she is not seen as the bad nation?



How many rockets does a terrorist organization get to send across a national border where said nation does nothing to stop said rockets, before the nation being attacked can do something to stop it?



How long would Texans or Californias stand by and do nothing if drug lords from South America started lobbing mortars and rockets from Mexican provinces?



Not sure where you get the idea Israel has all the guns and money, etc but in reality they do not have a very big military, and it's even smaller if you take into account that when they are attacked it is usually by a few of their neighbors at once.



As to her having powerful allies.... based on history if I was Israel I would not put myself in a position of having to depend on any allies help
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#7 Old 02-01-2007, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Indian Summer View Post

No, Israel hasn't attacked Iran. But Iran still has many enemies, and Israel is one of these. Just to mention a few points:



Israel has threatened to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities using mini-nukes:

Revealed: Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran



USA and several European countries supplied Iraq with chemical, biological and conventional weapons during the Iran-Iraq war.





They have said that Jews don't have a right to exist? I've never seen that. I think you are exaggerating somewhat, but I do agree that the rhetoric of Iran's current president has been very extreme. The thing is, though, that this is just rhetoric and aimed more for the domestic audience than the international community. Keep in mind that the Grand Ayatollah has been criticising the president for making these provokative statements.



Every nation on the planet has enemies of one kind or another, personally I would suggest Iran has more to fear from her Arab neighbors or China and Russia than from Israel, but that is a whole nother topic.



As to having plans to bomb Iran's nuclear making capability; can't say I blame them one bit. Iran has made it very clear over the yrs what it thinks should happen to Israel, not sure how you have missed that one. I find it amusing the story comes from a highly placed source in the Israeli military. We are talking about a military that is very closed mouth about anything it does yet here they are telling the world this is what we are going to do..... okay.



Whether or not something was supplied to Iraq during that war, that was misused; ie not intended purpose. Has nothing to do with this.



The Grand Atollya is trying to save face since the world arena does not seem very supportive of what his mouth piece has been sprouting. It's kinda funny you actually think Iran's president is in charge.
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#8 Old 02-01-2007, 05:02 PM
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Gaya wrote (post 97 "Plot thickens thread"):

This is just a guess because I'm not nearly as well read ont this subject as you guys but maybe it's because Israel is a democracy, Israel is supported by and wouldn't exist as she is today if not for the US, we have a hand in her wars. Oh...and Israel has lobbyist groups in the US that definately affect our politics.

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not really sure how true any of that is. Does Israel get a lot of support from the US? Sure, however, this has not always been the case.



The US has had little to do with most of the wars Israel has been involved in. Both wars between Israel and her neighbors were basically over before the US or UN could do anything.



The little war with Egypt way back around 1950 (forget the dates) was condoned and backed by France and England.



What's going on today is nothing more than a continuation of the 6 day war in the 70's. IMO
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#9 Old 02-01-2007, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

Gaya wrote (post 97 "Plot thickens thread"):

This is just a guess because I'm not nearly as well read ont this subject as you guys but maybe it's because Israel is a democracy, Israel is supported by and wouldn't exist as she is today if not for the US, we have a hand in her wars. Oh...and Israel has lobbyist groups in the US that definately affect our politics.

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not really sure how true any of that is. Does Israel get a lot of support from the US? Sure, however, this has not always been the case.

Yes, it is the case. This stuff i did source myself quite a while ago for a class. I had this project where I had to debate on behalf of GW lol during the elections and i ran across all kinds of interesting information. At that time we had given Israel 82 billion (or something close to that) and I'm sure it's higher now. 6 billion a year sounds about right. What's also interesting is that Israel doesn't have to pay it back. We forgive their debt and yet they don't forgive ours. It's a strange situation. All of my information was collected from .govs just so you know it was on the up and up. I might have it stored on my computer somewhere. I don't really feel like looking for it.



Quote:
The US has had little to do with most of the wars Israel has been involved in. Both wars between Israel and her neighbors were basically over before the US or UN could do anything.

We have been financially supporting Israel for decades. Of course we have everything to do with it. Israel would not be a power in the ME with out the US...that's a given.



havoc and whoever,

I don't know if it's true but according to that video Israel has the 4th largest military. Do you know if that's true? And what about the housing permit situation they mentioned. Do you know anything about that?



Also, what do you guys think about foreign lobbyist groups? I don't like lobbyist period but foreign lobbyists? It's all such a mess. I don't know how anybody keeps this stuff straight.



eta: i was looking around and ran into this http://mikepence.house.gov/Issues/Issue/?IssueID=987



These type of people really scares me.
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#10 Old 02-01-2007, 08:27 PM
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IF everyone complied with resolution 242 there might be a chance for peace in the mideast. IF eveyone in the mideast, including Israel and Iran, disavowed obtaining nuclear weapons, there might be a chance for keeping the area nuke free. but what of the Palestinians? the hurt there goes back before my mom and dad were born. people that feel displaced unjustly bear grudges for a long time. there are grudges in the mideast that go back before that, like in the modern era the colonization of the mideast by the Europeans which affects the way many there view the USA and Europe. and before that era there are ancient grudges. people in the USA forget about that because it seems like ancient history but people in other parts of the world have longer historical timelines in their minds.



so there is a lot of history that makes any peace effort difficult. but do we then just say aw the hell with it all and believe that a constant state of near war is the best that can be achieved? the ultimate question is: can some way be found that will make it possible to finally get people to stop killing each other because of the creation of the present Israel in 1948?
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#11 Old 02-01-2007, 11:31 PM
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If you don't understand the history and nature of the conflict, then how dare you hold an opinion or demand answers.



How dare I? Who are you, my mother. This is an internet forum, I'll ask whatever the hell I want. What a bizarre reaction to a reasonable question.
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#12 Old 02-02-2007, 02:49 PM
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I suggest you look at Iraq's military hardware sometime. Chinese and Soviet Bloc by and large.

Also, please cite a source where the US shipped a chemical or biological weapon to Iraq. And no, dual use items that can be used to manufacture said items are not weapons



That's not exactly what I said. The USA did supply conventional weapons, precursors for mustard gas, 14 agents with biological warfare significance (including West Nile virus and anthrax bacillus) and more. The point I was trying to make, was that the USA sided with Iraq in the war against Iran. (I think there is pretty strong evidence for this claim.) And Iran therefore came to view the USA as its enemy.



(As for looking into Iraq's military hardware: That doesn't really say much about who supplied it to them.)



Quote:
Not sure how you have missed that.

I have yet to see a credible source for this.



Quote:
And I do applaud that recent development. Now, if Iran would quit supplying those groups aimed at wiping out Israel, we would be on to something.

Yes, if only Israel would remove settlements on occupied land, give back occupied land, pay compensation for damages, stop assassinating people...



Quote:
Seriously, your ability to excuse anything those nutjobs do is amazing.

See, to me what is amazing is that anyone can find excuses for Israel's numerous misdeeds.

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#13 Old 02-02-2007, 05:02 PM
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And Iran therefore came to view the USA as its enemy.



Really? So that whole taking over our embassy and hostages thing was a friendly gesture and we just misunderstood? Are you serious?



Quote:

(As for looking into Iraq's military hardware: That doesn't really say much about who supplied it to them.)



Not sure how you think the US supplied Soviet and Chinese made hardware in those quantities.



Quote:

I have yet to see a credible source for this.

Then you haven't looked very hard.



Quote:

Yes, if only Israel would remove settlements on occupied land, give back occupied land, pay compensation for damages, stop assassinating people...



Give back land so it can be used to launch attacks against them. Pay "damages" to people who went to war against them? Yeah, I know you want Israel to be the Arab world's *****, but unlike the ancestors of your Euro-buddies, some of us today don't expect Jews to just be led to the slaughter.



Quote:

See, to me what is amazing is that anyone can find excuses for Israel's numerous misdeeds.



The difference? I know that if the the Arab extremists would lay down their weapons, we would soon have peace.

I also know that if Israel did the same, we would have a mass slaughter. As much as a lot of Europe regrets not getting all of the Jews a few decades back, I don't see how they can expect them to laod themselves into the boxcars this time.
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#14 Old 02-02-2007, 07:45 PM
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Yes, it is the case. This stuff i did source myself quite a while ago for a class. I had this project where I had to debate on behalf of GW lol during the elections and i ran across all kinds of interesting information. At that time we had given Israel 82 billion (or something close to that) and I'm sure it's higher now. 6 billion a year sounds about right. What's also interesting is that Israel doesn't have to pay it back. We forgive their debt and yet they don't forgive ours. It's a strange situation. All of my information was collected from .govs just so you know it was on the up and up. I might have it stored on my computer somewhere. I don't really feel like looking for it.





We have been financially supporting Israel for decades. Of course we have everything to do with it. Israel would not be a power in the ME with out the US...that's a given.



havoc and whoever,

I don't know if it's true but according to that video Israel has the 4th largest military. Do you know if that's true? And what about the housing permit situation they mentioned. Do you know anything about that?



Also, what do you guys think about foreign lobbyist groups? I don't like lobbyist period but foreign lobbyists? It's all such a mess. I don't know how anybody keeps this stuff straight.



eta: i was looking around and ran into this http://mikepence.house.gov/Issues/Issue/?IssueID=987



These type of people really scares me.



I don't disagree that the US has given aid to Israel since the inception of the Jewish state, I do however, question as to how much was given before Kissinger. I also have serious doubts as to whether US aid is what determines whether Israel stays a strong nation. All some of them have to do is look at the tattooed serial number on their forearm or their parents or grandparents forearm to affirm their convinction to go down fighting. They did a good job of defending themselves before Kissinger, and I am fairly certain they would have done just as well if we would not have given more aid since Kissinger.



Didn't watch the whole video, have seen others with a similar message filled with half truths and fabercations so am not sure what exactly you are asking about in regards to the housing permit.



Did a search of this site:



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mi...ales-age-15-49



had to click on the individual nations to see how big their armed forces are, so am not sure how complete this list is, but this is what I came up with:



1. China 2,810,000

2. Russia 1,520,000

3. United States 1,366,000

4. India 1,303,000

5. North Korea 923,000

6. South Korea 683,000

7. Pakistan 612,000

8. Turkey 610,000

9. Iran 513,000

10. Vietnam 484,000

11. Egypt 448,000

12. Syria 316,000


13. Ukraine 304,000

14. Thailand 301,000

15. Brazil 288,000

16. Italy 251,000

17. Taiwan 240,000

18. Japan 237,000

19. Germany 221,000

20. Poland 217,000

21. United Kingdom 212,000

22. Saudi Arabia 202,000

23. Mexico 193,000

24. Israel 172,000



maybe they ment to say twentyfourth?



lobbiests in general suck, however, they are around for everything including Palistine, saving trees, saving whales, organic vegetables, etc... so not sure where one would draw the line.
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#15 Old 02-02-2007, 07:55 PM
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That's not exactly what I said. The USA did supply conventional weapons, precursors for mustard gas, 14 agents with biological warfare significance (including West Nile virus and anthrax bacillus) and more. The point I was trying to make, was that the USA sided with Iraq in the war against Iran. (I think there is pretty strong evidence for this claim.) And Iran therefore came to view the USA as its enemy.



(As for looking into Iraq's military hardware: That doesn't really say much about who supplied it to them.)





I have yet to see a credible source for this.





Yes, if only Israel would remove settlements on occupied land, give back occupied land, pay compensation for damages, stop assassinating people...





See, to me what is amazing is that anyone can find excuses for Israel's numerous misdeeds.





Kind of a misleading statement about the US siding with Iraq, it was more like the world siding with Iraq especially the European nations with the help of the US to keep europes oil flowing. After all Iran was mining the straits, attacking oil tankers and drilling platforms.



Many Arab nations goaded Saddam into that war because the leaders were afraid of the Iranian Revolution spilling over into their own nations.



BTW Iran's new extremist Islamic gov't started hostilities with the US when they invaded our embassy (an act of war) and held US citizens with diplomatic immunity hostage (another act of war). If Carter would have has a set of gonads we would not even be having this discussion right now.



It would be really nice if Israels neighbors would quit lobbying rockets at her. Every time Israel caves in to work towards peace her neighbors pull some more crap while the rest of the world gets mad because she defends herself........ so how long do you think the English citizens would stand by if the IRA started lobbying rockets from Northern Ireland into some English province?
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#16 Old 02-03-2007, 01:13 AM
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I don't disagree that the US has given aid to Israel since the inception of the Jewish state, I do however, question as to how much was given before Kissinger. I also have serious doubts as to whether US aid is what determines whether Israel stays a strong nation.



The U.S. didn't provide any Military aid to Israel until 1959 (in fact, we actually ad an arms embargo against them), and it wasn't until '66-'67 that we began giving anything of significance (after the 6 day war). Prior to that, all our military aid went to other Middle East countries.



You can find numbers here:



http://qesdb.usaid.gov/gbk/index.html
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#17 Old 02-03-2007, 06:25 AM
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And Iran therefore came to view the USA as its enemy.

we didn't even get involved until they messed up the shipping lanes and threatened to continue the iranian offensive into saudi arabia all the way to israel. not to mention taking our people hostage in the first place. we aided saddam enough to turn it into a stalemate, it worked. At the time we hoped he was a better guy like that Anwar Sadat, an Arab Nationalist that we could talk with.



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See, to me what is amazing is that anyone can find excuses for Israel's numerous misdeeds.

providing that you deny the holocaust, yes i suppose we can start to understand where you're coming from now.

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#18 Old 02-03-2007, 12:34 PM
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Kind of a misleading statement about the US siding with Iraq, it was more like the world siding with Iraq especially the European nations with the help of the US to keep europes oil flowing. After all Iran was mining the straits, attacking oil tankers and drilling platforms.

The USA's contributions to Iraq during the war was far from insignificant. US navy ships were even involved directly.

Quote:
[...]and the United States offered to provide protection for tankers flying the U.S. flag on March 7, 1987 (Operation Earnest Will and Operation Prime Chance). Under international law, an attack on such ships would be treated as an attack on the U.S., allowing the U.S. to retaliate militarily. This support would protect ships headed to Iraqi ports, effectively guaranteeing Iraq's revenue stream for the duration of the war.

The Tanker War and US military involvement



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Many Arab nations goaded Saddam into that war because the leaders were afraid of the Iranian Revolution spilling over into their own nations.

I'm not sure about that. But yes, once the war got started, I think many Arab nations supported Iraq.



Quote:
BTW Iran's new extremist Islamic gov't started hostilities with the US when they invaded our embassy (an act of war) and held US citizens with diplomatic immunity hostage (another act of war). If Carter would have has a set of gonads we would not even be having this discussion right now.

The hostage taking in the embassy was not something Ayathollah Khomeini planned or was involved in initially. It was planned and carried out by independent islamist radicals. Khomeini did however support it later. But anyway, yes, I suppose you can argue that the Iranian regime viewed the USA as an enemy even before the war with Iraq. And why? Goes back to the USA, the UK and Soviet occupying Iran during WW2. And installing a new, more cooperative Shah. And Operation Ajax that was carried out by the USA and the UK to overthrow Iran's democratically elected prime minister.



If I understand correctly, Carter did actually try to liberate the hostages by force. This however, failed miserably.



Quote:
It would be really nice if Israels neighbors would quit lobbying rockets at her. Every time Israel caves in to work towards peace her neighbors pull some more crap while the rest of the world gets mad because she defends herself........ so how long do you think the English citizens would stand by if the IRA started lobbying rockets from Northern Ireland into some English province?

I agree, it's a very uncomfortable situation to live in fear of being hit by a rocket. But if you could choose, where would you prefer to live: In Israel or in the occupied West Bank? In Israel or in southern Lebanon? Where do you think you are most likely to be killed, injured or suffer from the damages to the infrastructure and unexploded bombs?



Also, I seem to remember that prime minister Rabin, who eventually tried to get the peace process working, was killed by an Israeli. So no, it's not only extremists outside of Israel that work against the peace process.

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providing that you deny the holocaust, yes i suppose we can start to understand where you're coming from now.

Um, because anyone who disagrees with Israel (even say those like me, who think ALL sides have made serious mistakes) surely must be so delusional as to deny the Holocaust (big H)? Pulling out the "anti-Semite" card...bad form.

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#20 Old 02-03-2007, 03:07 PM
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Every nation on the planet has enemies of one kind or another, personally I would suggest Iran has more to fear from her Arab neighbors or China and Russia than from Israel, but that is a whole nother topic.

The point is that Israel and the USA are perceived by the Iranians as the main enemies. This is evident e.g. from the rhetoric of the current president of Iran and the appeal that this seems to have in the population.



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As to having plans to bomb Iran's nuclear making capability; can't say I blame them one bit. Iran has made it very clear over the yrs what it thinks should happen to Israel, not sure how you have missed that one. I find it amusing the story comes from a highly placed source in the Israeli military. We are talking about a military that is very closed mouth about anything it does yet here they are telling the world this is what we are going to do..... okay.

If the plan was simply to go bomb those facilities, of course they wouldn't be talking about it. At this point they're using it as a threat: Stop it now, or else...!



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Whether or not something was supplied to Iraq during that war, that was misused; ie not intended purpose. Has nothing to do with this.

The point is: I don't think the Iranians agree with you. Or the Kurds. Especially not those who suffered and died, or still suffers from the wounds:

Quote:
The official estimate does not include the civilian population contaminated in bordering towns or the children and relatives of veterans, many of whom have developed blood, lung and skin complications, according to the Organization for Veterans of Iran. According to a 2002 article in the Star-Ledger:



"Nerve gas agents killed about 20,000 Iranian soldiers immediately, according to official reports. Of the 90,000 survivors, some 5,000 seek medical treatment regularly and about 1,000 are still hospitalized with severe, chronic conditions. Many others were hit by mustard gas..."[49]



Iraq also used chemical weapons on Iranian civilians, killing many in villages and hospitals. Many civilians suffered severe burns and health problems, and still suffer from them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Ir...ss_destruction



Quote:
The Grand Atollya is trying to save face since the world arena does not seem very supportive of what his mouth piece has been sprouting. It's kinda funny you actually think Iran's president is in charge.

If you think I believe the president is in charge, then you are grossly misreading me.

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#21 Old 02-03-2007, 04:22 PM
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Um, because anyone who disagrees with Israel (even say those like me, who think ALL sides have made serious mistakes) surely must be so delusional as to deny the Holocaust (big H)? Pulling out the "anti-Semite" card...bad form.





It's like the fact that they've have been thouroughly screwed over so much in the past gives them (in some people's mind) justification to do whatever the hell they want without anyone calling them on it. It's bizarre.

It also seems like the cultural differences of the other ME countries causes some people to always view them as the bad guys in the conflict, even though both sides seem to be reacting somewhat understandably to the situation they find themselves in.



My hope, is that someone will eventually realise that peace and the saving of the lives of their own people, is more important than the conflict and make some real concessions towards peace. And I don't see that happening as long as the US is effectively conducting a war through proxy.
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#22 Old 02-03-2007, 04:45 PM
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(As for looking into Iraq's military hardware: That doesn't really say much about who supplied it to them.)



http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/I...d-nyt-2003.htm

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Below is a picture of the origins of what Iraq said it imported for its chemical weapon effort. The data was given to United Nations inspectors in the late 1990's, and was reconfirmed in Iraq's 12,000-page declaration last fall. But the statistical material on which it is based remained confidential until recently.



[attachment=5136:nyt-041303.gif]



Quote:
The countries of origin are compiled based on the exporter, not the manufacturer, because it was the exporter who decided to sell a sensitive item to Iraq. Most of the equipment described in the report is restricted for export today, even though it also has civilian uses, but it was probably not restricted when it was sold in the 1980's.


LL
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#23 Old 02-03-2007, 04:49 PM
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And I don't see that happening as long as the US is effectively conducting a war through proxy.



It sure gets confusing.



I mean, half the time people are accusing the U.S. of being a puppet of Israel. Unless it's more expeditious to accuse Israel of being a puppet (proxy) of the U.S.
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#24 Old 02-04-2007, 12:22 AM
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Um, because anyone who disagrees with Israel (even say those like me, who think ALL sides have made serious mistakes) surely must be so delusional as to deny the Holocaust (big H)? Pulling out the "anti-Semite" card...bad form.

Indian Summer (your boyfriend?) is an anti-semite, his bias against jews being viewed as human beings is evident in his Lehi comparison. Defending your boyfriend in moderator guise is bad form.



https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...&postcount=124

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#25 Old 02-04-2007, 12:26 AM
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Pulling out the "anti-Semite" card...bad form.

It's obviously a trump card so drawing it out makes a lot of tactical sense.



I made a deck full of anti-Semite cards.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#26 Old 02-04-2007, 12:50 AM
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Indian Summer once made a false equivalent between the Grand Mufti's warm and personal dealings with Hitler (a literal Jihad against the Allied Powers) and an unsuccessful attempt made by a small extremist jewish militia in palestine to secure the release of concentration camp prisoners in exchange for increased attacks on british forces in the mandate of palestine.

In your opinion, that qualifies as anti-semitism? That's just.. surreal.

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#27 Old 02-04-2007, 04:29 AM
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providing that you deny the holocaust, yes i suppose we can start to understand where you're coming from now.

You accuse me of denying the Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by otomik View Post

Indian Summer (your boyfriend?) is an anti-semite, his bias against jews being viewed as human beings is evident in his Lehi comparison. Defending your boyfriend in moderator guise is bad form.



https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...&postcount=124

You accuse me of being an anti-semite? And for having a bias against Jews being viewed as human beings? And in that other thread you accuse me of "blood libel"? And your "evidence" is what exactly? That I tried to put some perspective on the Grand Mufti's relationship with the Nazis?



If there's any blood libel going on here, it's your totally unfounded accusations. Seems to me you've run out of rational arguments, so you pull the anti-semite card.

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#28 Old 02-04-2007, 05:10 AM
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This isn't specifically related to the conversation, but I thought it was interesting in that the "far left" is included, and that the connection drawn is to global events.



Record Surge in Anti-Semitic Attacks:

Quote:
After the figures were published Thursday, CST communications director Mark Gardner said British Jews now tended to come under attack from an unlikely coalition of the far left, the far right and Islamist extremist groups.



"It's not really got anything to do with Holocaust-related anti-Semitism. It's more subtle, more complex -- it's something that feeds off global communications," he said.

...



The CST found that more than one-fifth of last year's anti-Semitic incidents took place during the 34-day war between Israel and the Shiite Muslim guerrilla group Hezbollah in Lebanon in July and August.



...



A cross-party parliamentary inquiry warned last September that anti-Jewish sentiment was entering mainstream British society.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070202...m_070202164530

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#29 Old 02-04-2007, 05:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

Indian Summer (your boyfriend?) is an anti-semite, his bias against jews being viewed as human beings is evident in his Lehi comparison.

As mentioned below, this is hardly a valid justification for an accusation of anti-semitism. The original exchange that prompted my earlier post:



Quote:

Indian Summer:

See, to me what is amazing is that anyone can find excuses for Israel's numerous misdeeds.



otomik:

providing that you deny the holocaust, yes i suppose we can start to understand where you're coming from now.

Criticizing the messenger instead of the message only makes your position weaker. I make no claim of complete non-bias, but the fact the IS and I share a home doesn't preclude me from independent thought. My objection is not to the accusation itself, but the astounding leap of logic which you used to get there.



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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

Defending your boyfriend in moderator guise is bad form.

Um, where did I do this again, exactly? I didn't edit your post, or suggest that it was against posting rules. I made no reference to moderation at all.



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It's obviously a trump card so drawing it out makes a lot of tactical sense.

In some cases, perhaps so. In many other situations, particularly common on internet discussion boards, the accusation is merely a lame attempt at distraction, the debating equivalent of "Hey! Look over there!"

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#30 Old 02-04-2007, 10:18 AM
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there are a few people that seem to be unable to refrain from personally attacking people with whom they disagree. referring to 'the anti-semites at VB' and even direct accusations against a member of ant-semitism because others have different views on the middle east is to my mind really weak, bogus and unacceptable. some of you 'older and wiser' people might want to spend less time telling people that they don't understand history and spewing accusations of ant-semitism and questioning others' 'agendas' and more time actually debating the points in a thread and offering interesting arguments. it would make for far better conversations. but a lot seem to have their egos invested in scoring message board debating points instead of actually having a discussion.
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