Veg Elitism - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 01-28-2007, 12:33 PM
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Doesn't anyone else get bugged by the elitist attitude of some vegetarians/vegans? I don't think it wins anyone to our cause, and it makes me sad. Sorry I don't know if this is more of a vent, or a call for a serious discussion - perhaps its not one I'd like to engage in. But its bugging me, and this forum seemed most appropriate. Doesn't elitism, as in "I'm more moral than you", "lookie at how compassionate I am" cause a lot of grief, or is it only non-AR people who feel this way?



Thanks and play nice please I'm hormonal ;-)
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#2 Old 01-28-2007, 12:37 PM
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I propose an arm-wrestling match between you and gaiabundo, instead of a thread masked as a general discussion



What do you mean by elitism? Is there an independent standard of elitism or is it relative to your own ideology? If it's elitist to think that some choices are better than others, then I'm an elitist.

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made of weak and useless men"

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#3 Old 01-28-2007, 12:50 PM
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I don't know any elitist veg*ns.



I'm just a humble extremist fundamentalist vegan ALF supporter.



Now where can I find an ovo-lacto to bash? I've been busy these days, but have felt that there is something LACKING in my life. Any volunteers???
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#4 Old 01-28-2007, 12:58 PM
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lol ;-) Ok i'm gonna run and hide from this thread now ;-) Have fun if you will ;-)
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#5 Old 01-28-2007, 01:00 PM
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No. I find it all rather entertaining.
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#6 Old 01-28-2007, 01:08 PM
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as I said in a similar thread on another forum,





Only the lessers think we are elitist.

/pop collar.
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#7 Old 01-28-2007, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggielove View Post

"I'm more moral than you"



Is one who eats babies and rapes and kills the mothers more moral or ethical than someone who does not?



So if one doesn't view them as equal, they are elitist?



k.
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#8 Old 01-28-2007, 01:47 PM
 
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That argument could perhaps hold some water, if "morality" was composed solely of one's actions wrt animals/veg*nism.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#9 Old 01-28-2007, 01:54 PM
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Of course vegans are more compassionate....
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#10 Old 01-28-2007, 02:08 PM
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There are some theoretical considerations, relating to free will and moral responsibility, in favor of thinking that people as such are not "more or less" moral. According to this way of thinking, no matter if they burn babies or work to prevent starvation, no one is ever "evil" (and conversely, no one is ever "good" in a true sense). This line of thinking still allows the comparison of actions as more or less ethical - as more or less supported by some ethical view.



On an emotional level, I do not subscribe to that view. On a rational level, I'm not sure - some of the theoretical considerations are pretty convincing.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#11 Old 01-28-2007, 02:24 PM
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I love it, but I'm weird. I like trying to improve myself, and if someone comes along and basically says that they're more moral, and I actually agree that they are, then I'll try to improve myself further.
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#12 Old 01-28-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggielove View Post

"I'm more moral than you"



I got that from my boyfriend's roomie. She is lacto-ovo and one time she was like: I am better than you because I've been vegetarian longer than you.



That is the person who does not care whether there is gelatin/renet in her food, or who does not believe that animals get hurt/killed by producting milks/eggs.
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#13 Old 01-28-2007, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by veggielove View Post

Doesn't anyone else get bugged by the elitist attitude of some vegetarians/vegans? I don't think it wins anyone to our cause, and it makes me sad.



Veggielove,



I do. It makes me sad too. I was talking to my girlfriend yesterday about how saddened I am at what I view as the elitism and how it has made me not want to interact. Oh Im still here, and will probably remain here while I am learning, but posts are likely to be even more sporadic than they already are. The last forum I joined was a quit smoking forum they were so wonderfully supportive. I dont think I ever heard a cross or judgmental word from anyone. I even met my girlfriend there how supportive is that!  Anyway, I had 1000 posts in 30 days and am coming up on a year off ciggies after a 30 year, 4-pack a day habit but then I thrived in that climate.



I wrote a nice long response to someone yesterday and prior to hitting the post button, I proofread it. What I wrote captured my opinion, but I hit the delete button because I just wasnt in the mood to handle the inevitable attack because it wasnt AR enough or something. Three cheers for diversity eh? Anyway, forgive the spelling and punctuation issues this time because Im not going to proofread just going to give it hard and fast



First of all, compassion cannot be measured in ones food choices. Even amongst those who claim compassion as their impetus, there are people who choose a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle so they can get attention or be a martyr or have something that their damaged self-esteem can hang on to and say, Wow, look at me arent I special. You get that in every fringe group on the planet; omnis dont have the market cornered in mental health problems. While this may be a small percentage of the whole, since these people are seeking attention they tend to be quite outspoken and are therefore usually the first ones that the vegetarian curious come across. People who cant seem to lift themselves up over others have been pushing others down in order to feel superior for a long time nothing has changed.



Every one of us has either been an omni before or we were born into vegetarianism. Either way, we all made pretty much the same choice. If you were born into vegetarianism, the choice was made for you until the day it wasnt and you began making your own choices. As for omnis, Im pretty sure the choice was made for all of us until it wasnt too and we made the choice not to eat meat any longer. Some of us then made a choice to take it further. How can they hate me without hating what they were? How can that be good? Yes, yes, I know they dont hate me just my choices. Feels like hate. Hurts like hate. Alienates like hate. Call it what you like.



Lastly, to those who would say something like: Isnt someone who eats babies and rapes and murders the mothers more ethical than someone who wouldnt. Once again, that depends. Motivation has a lot to do with it in my mind. But beyond all that I just got off the phone with a Fundamentalist Christian fellow I know and asked him if he thought he was more moral or ethical than a non-Christian. You can guess his answer. You see, he thinks that someone who loves, worships and respects the one who gave his only begotten son so that all of us can be saved is clearly more moral and ethical. He also thinks that youve got to be pretty stupid not to look at all the evidence and draw exactly the same conclusion as him. I dont agree with him by the way and to be fair, I did bait him to say it just like that but they are still his words. Youve got to buy into the whole god thing along with the saved and the only begotten son things which he sort of takes as a given before you can conclude similarly. Likewise, Ive got to buy into the whole eating babies and rape things in order to have the militant ARs perspective. And I dont.



I am vegetarian for my own reasons of compassion. Today, I choose vegetarian tomorrow perhaps itll be another choice but it will definitely not be because someone got in my face about it and told me how much better than me they are. Thanks for the question veggielove - *hugs*



Angel
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#14 Old 01-28-2007, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelLargay View Post

Veggielove,



I do. It makes me sad too. I was talking to my girlfriend yesterday about how saddened I am at what I view as the elitism and how it has made me not want to interact. Oh Im still here, and will probably remain here while I am learning, but posts are likely to be even more sporadic than they already are. The last forum I joined was a quit smoking forum they were so wonderfully supportive. I dont think I ever heard a cross or judgmental word from anyone. I even met my girlfriend there how supportive is that!  Anyway, I had 1000 posts in 30 days and am coming up on a year off ciggies after a 30 year, 4-pack a day habit but then I thrived in that climate.



I wrote a nice long response to someone yesterday and prior to hitting the post button, I proofread it. What I wrote captured my opinion, but I hit the delete button because I just wasnt in the mood to handle the inevitable attack because it wasnt AR enough or something. Three cheers for diversity eh? Anyway, forgive the spelling and punctuation issues this time because Im not going to proofread just going to give it hard and fast



First of all, compassion cannot be measured in ones food choices. Even amongst those who claim compassion as their impetus, there are people who choose a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle so they can get attention or be a martyr or have something that their damaged self-esteem can hang on to and say, Wow, look at me arent I special. You get that in every fringe group on the planet; omnis dont have the market cornered in mental health problems. While this may be a small percentage of the whole, since these people are seeking attention they tend to be quite outspoken and are therefore usually the first ones that the vegetarian curious come across. People who cant seem to lift themselves up over others have been pushing others down in order to feel superior for a long time nothing has changed.



Every one of us has either been an omni before or we were born into vegetarianism. Either way, we all made pretty much the same choice. If you were born into vegetarianism, the choice was made for you until the day it wasnt and you began making your own choices. As for omnis, Im pretty sure the choice was made for all of us until it wasnt too and we made the choice not to eat meat any longer. Some of us then made a choice to take it further. How can they hate me without hating what they were? How can that be good? Yes, yes, I know they dont hate me just my choices. Feels like hate. Hurts like hate. Alienates like hate. Call it what you like.



Lastly, to those who would say something like: Isnt someone who eats babies and rapes and murders the mothers more ethical than someone who wouldnt. Once again, that depends. Motivation has a lot to do with it in my mind. But beyond all that I just got off the phone with a Fundamentalist Christian fellow I know and asked him if he thought he was more moral or ethical than a non-Christian. You can guess his answer. You see, he thinks that someone who loves, worships and respects the one who gave his only begotten son so that all of us can be saved is clearly more moral and ethical. He also thinks that youve got to be pretty stupid not to look at all the evidence and draw exactly the same conclusion as him. I dont agree with him by the way and to be fair, I did bait him to say it just like that but they are still his words. Youve got to buy into the whole god thing along with the saved and the only begotten son things which he sort of takes as a given before you can conclude similarly. Likewise, Ive got to buy into the whole eating babies and rape things in order to have the militant ARs perspective. And I dont.



I am vegetarian for my own reasons of compassion. Today, I choose vegetarian tomorrow perhaps itll be another choice but it will definitely not be because someone got in my face about it and told me how much better than me they are. Thanks for the question veggielove - *hugs*



Angel





*hugs* right back at ya ;-) Maybe there is some hope for us ;-)
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#15 Old 01-28-2007, 03:44 PM
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This seems a silly topic for the compost heap (not that there are any lack of those). I'm a vegetarian and I don't ever find myself doing an 'I'm more moral than you' thing. I know quite a few vegetarians in real life (some grown and some children)....and none of these vegetarians take this attitude. Things only bug you if you let them...I've found. If you are a vegetarian and it bugs you when other vegetarians are elitist, it would seem that the best thing to do would be to not be that way yourself, and not worry about what other people (over whom you have little to no control) decide to do.



B
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#16 Old 01-28-2007, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelLargay View Post

Likewise, Ive got to buy into the whole eating babies and rape things in order to have the militant ARs perspective. And I dont.

I think with this should come the realization that what is perceived as elitism is subjective and relative to your values. This in turn, I think, makes the whole notion of 'elitism' -- like those of 'militant', 'intolerant' etc. -- problematic.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#17 Old 01-28-2007, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think with this should come the realization that what is perceived as elitism is subjective and relative to your values. This in turn, I think, makes the whole notion of 'elitism' -- like those of 'militant', 'intolerant' etc. -- problematic.



Of course. Elitist, militant, intolerance etc all fall on a continuum, that point where I define 'whatever it is' is going to be different than where you define 'whatever it is'.



But phrases like 'eating babies' and words like 'rape' as it pertains to dairy cows are meant to be inflammatory. Their use in such ways is new and was created by animal rights groups that call themselves militant. By my use of the word militant to describe such an outlook - I am merely agreeing with their definition of themselves.



Peace

Angel
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#18 Old 01-28-2007, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NovaScotia View Post

I got that from my boyfriend's roomie. She is lacto-ovo and one time she was like: I am better than you because I've been vegetarian longer than you.



That is the person who does not care whether there is gelatin/renet in her food, or who does not believe that animals get hurt/killed by producting milks/eggs.





so ironic.



Is not your latter paragraph declaring yourself better than the person you have just called elitist by stating her views in a negative sense? Is this not elitist in and of itself?
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#19 Old 01-28-2007, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggielove View Post

Doesn't anyone else get bugged by the elitist attitude of some vegetarians/vegans?





Quote:
Originally Posted by veggielove View Post


...Don't misuse labels that I am CORRECTLY using...



Labels are important, don't misuse them, you kill more animals that way. End of story...



more irony.
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#20 Old 01-28-2007, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelLargay View Post


But phrases like 'eating babies' and words like 'rape' as it pertains to dairy cows are meant to be inflammatory.





I didn't use it that way, I was being literal. Is a person who goes around and sets fire to peoples houses because his worldview says doing so is righteous, as ethical as someone who is not an arsonist?



The point is that either there are lower and greater forms of ethics and morals, or there aren't. Can't be both ways.



And I'm not saying diet is the only form of ethical judgment, I'm saying that either some are more ethical than others, or everyone is the same. If everyone is the same, then farmer bob who owns 20,000 slaughterhouses and kicks puppys at home is just as ethical as Gandhi.
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#21 Old 01-28-2007, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelLargay View Post

But phrases like 'eating babies' and words like 'rape' as it pertains to dairy cows are meant to be inflammatory. Their use in such ways is new and was created by animal rights groups that call themselves militant.



You might try getting your facts straight. Rape (as in "rape rack") is a dairy industry term.



Quote:
Every year, dairy cows are forced to give birth. With a gestation period of nine months, the physical toll on a cows body is incomprehensible. To make matters worse, cows are routinely artificially inseminateda metal insemination rod is thrust into her vagina and up into her cervix, as she is strapped into what the dairy industry calls a rape rack. This all ensues while the cow is still lactating from an earlier birth. In other words, their bodies are producing milk through seven months of a nine-month pregnancy!


"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#22 Old 01-28-2007, 05:40 PM
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I eat babies but call myself vegetarian. Where's that leave me?
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#23 Old 01-28-2007, 05:45 PM
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You're a babytarian.
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#24 Old 01-28-2007, 05:49 PM
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But then that whole "t" came from vegetarian...so.. uh babarian?



Babies.
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#25 Old 01-28-2007, 05:50 PM
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Quit trying to make sense.





Babies



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#26 Old 01-28-2007, 05:58 PM
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Their use in such ways is new and was created by animal rights groups that call themselves militant. By my use of the word militant to describe such an outlook - I am merely agreeing with their definition of themselves.

Well I don't know about those groups but I for example hold opinions some of which you'd probably find "militant", but I don't want to identify myself with that term. Rather than call those militant beliefs, I think we should be asking why we have supported certain revolting forms of exploitation in the first place, and how have we gotten into a situation where beliefs against causing death and extreme suffering are called radical, militant, extreme etc.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#27 Old 01-28-2007, 07:17 PM
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so ironic.



Is not your latter paragraph declaring yourself better than the person you have just called elitist by stating her views in a negative sense? Is this not elitist in and of itself?



that comes from the most ironic person on the board (just kidding)



No, I did not try to make myself look better than her. Sorry if it seemed like that.
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#28 Old 01-28-2007, 07:56 PM
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that comes from the most ironic person on the board (just kidding)



waffles.





...........nice job
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#29 Old 01-28-2007, 08:00 PM
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I eat babies but call myself vegetarian. Where's that leave me?





baby what?



baby spinach? baby humans? baby puppys?





infantarian?
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#30 Old 01-28-2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaScotia View Post




That is the person who does not care whether there is gelatin/renet in her food, or who does not believe that animals get hurt/killed by producting milks/eggs.



If I raise my own free range chickens or have a cow or goat, and I look after them, provide them with food and make sure they get helped when they need it, is it wrong for me to get eggs and milk from them? Does it hurt them?



I don't think so personally, I have absolutely no problem living in symbiosis with animals.
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