Veg Elitism - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 01-29-2007, 04:21 PM
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That's because you're elitist.
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#62 Old 01-29-2007, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I disagree.



Well yes... I was groaning as I wrote that, plenty wrong with using fossil fuels. But hopefully the point was seen... The action of consuming milk or cheese, on it's own isn't unethical, it is the other stuff that goes on that is... So if you have your own animals and treat them well I see no problem with it.



Yes, I don't have my own animals.... But soy milk worries me a little, though I like the taste I haven't looked in to it enough to know if it'd be wise to switch as I know there can be some issues with it.
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#63 Old 01-29-2007, 04:39 PM
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Also I haven't been able to find anything other than vegetarian propaganda websites saying that the cows have to be continually impregnated, as far as I know, if you keep the cows milk every day they'll continue to produce it. But I haven't looked in to it.



They could likely produce a bit longer so they don't need to give birth every single year, as is done commercially. But the milk becomes less, and then just dries up eventually. Producing cow's milk is a commercial venture and so cows are impregnated every year to get the maximum amount of milk.



I am sure that if you go looking on dairy/industry sites, you can find out that this is the way that milk is produced commercially. I have done it before.

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#64 Old 01-29-2007, 04:41 PM
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A different look at milk.



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Similarly, even among breast-feeding women, the milk that each woman produces is not exactly the same. By nature's wondrous design, the milk that a mother produces for her child is perfectly suited to that child. Amazingly, even while breast-feeding, a mother's milk can change according to the needs of the child! Obviously, a more subtle influence is present herethe influence of love. In the same way, if a cow is loved and protected, the milk it offers to humans will most certainly be uniquely beneficial. On the other hand, the commercial milk that comes from mistreated and diseased cows is certainly very harmful. It's important to note that all dairy research is conducted on commercial milk!



So although vegans certainly have strong scientific evidence, albeit, limited to the harmful effects of commercial dairy products on humans, we should also consider the overwhelming evidence of one of the world's oldest culturesHinduismand be careful not to generalize that "all milk is the same." It isn't.



You may be wondering, then, why I (a practicing Hindu) decided to choose a vegan diet. The first reason is the same thing that motivates most vegans: I am vehemently opposed to the vicious and cruel commercial dairy industry that exploits cows. It is, most certainly, hypocritical for any Hindu to support it. On the other hand, I have no quarrel with people who love and care for a cow at home or on a farm, and who accept the excess milk the cow offers with love. (By the way, the generalization bandied about by some vegans that a cow must be in calf to produce milkis not entirely true. Examples to the contrary include one cow at the ISKCON Bhaktivedanta Manor in England that continued to give milk 8 years after calf!!! How is that possible? The cow felt loved, and so she continued to offer her milk with love.



In a sense, I am a "conditional vegana new breed of conscious consumer, who will accept milk only from loved and protected cows, and NOT from those that are raised for slaughter, including the cows at organic dairies (another hypocrisy of the modern day).



http://www.ffl.org/ffl_pf_milk.php





As far as elitism goes I don't really worry about it. I can't tell if I'm ahead or behind others in the race towards heaven. It doesn't really matter to me. I try to live as harmlessly as possible and to affirm the positive nature of life. Part of that means being open to what others are saying about certain issues (ie sweatshops, the environment) and sharing with others what I know about certain issues. Hopefully one day we will all be at peace.





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The Bible depicts vegetarianism as Gods ideal, and the diet conforms to the central biblical principle of stewardship. In Eden, all creatures lived peacefully, and God told both humans and animals to consume only plant foods (Gen. 1:2931). Several prophecies, such as Isaiah 11:69, foresee a return to this vegetarian world, where the wolf, lamb, lion, cow, bear, snake, and little child all coexist peacefully. Christian vegetarians, while acknowledging human sinfulness, believe we should strive toward the harmonious world Isaiah envisionedto try to live in accordance with the prayer that Jesus taught us, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:10).



http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/honoring.htm
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#65 Old 01-29-2007, 04:45 PM
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*groan*
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#66 Old 01-29-2007, 04:56 PM
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wikipedia:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...i/Dairy_cattle



It's certainly not from an AR perspective - it does no justice, for example, to the trauma of separating mothers from babies, transport, slaughter, veal, etc.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#67 Old 01-29-2007, 05:03 PM
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That's fine, I know the animal rights arguments, it is always best to know both sides though.



Heh, my girlfriend would love it if I went vegan.
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#68 Old 01-29-2007, 05:20 PM
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I'm just not convinced it's ethical to use products from a process which we know is not ethical. Very little milk is produced from animals who choose when and how often they will breed, and who are allowed to keep their offspring with them until natural weaning, and whose offspring are allowed to live out their natural lives, and who are themselves allowed to live out their natural lives. It's just so rare as to be not especially valuable in discussion, it seems to me. Unless we're agreeing it is "ethical" to use products from animals who are not given the same consideration we would want to be given.
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#69 Old 01-29-2007, 06:06 PM
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Whether it's ethical or not, each person can decide for themselves.

As long as they get the facts straight.
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#70 Old 01-29-2007, 06:30 PM
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And as long as it's legal. For example, it's illegal to beat a dog even if one find it relieves one's stress after a long, hard day at work. If one has all the facts and still decides that beating a dog is ok the rest of us cannot sit back and say nothing. In such a circumstance we cannot let that person decide for him/herself what is best. We would be morally obligated to call the SPCA.
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#71 Old 01-29-2007, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

And as long as it's legal. For example, it's illegal to beat a dog even if one find it relieves one's stress after a long, hard day at work. If one has all the facts and still decides that beating a dog is ok the rest of us cannot sit back and say nothing. In such a circumstance we cannot let that person decide for him/herself what is best. We would be morally obligated to call the SPCA.



Then why do you sit by and not doing anything about meat works?



Why is it unacceptable to beat a dog, to the point where you would do something about it. But the mass slaughter of cows, pigs and other animals doesn't drive you to do anything?



Gosh, I'm in a bit of a Machiavellian mood, not good.
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#72 Old 01-29-2007, 07:42 PM
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In such a circumstance we cannot let that person decide for him/herself what is best. We would be morally obligated to call the SPCA.





So, is there a circumstance where we are morally obligated to smack someone upside the head and show them that cows and chickens die for the omelette's they eat?
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#73 Old 01-29-2007, 07:48 PM
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Now Synergy... How is a vegan diet better than mine?



I understand and respect your position on eggs and diary. The world would be a better place if more people had your perspective.



The reason I personally choose a vegan diet is that I do not want any living creature to suffer because of me. I am not able to completely eliminate all suffering in all creatures, but I do what I can and I am at peace with myself, while constantly striving to do more.



If you are happy and at peace with eating eggs and dairy, then that's great



I can't say that I wouldn't be ecstatic if everyone in the world became vegan though. I would do a never ending happy dance! It would look a little something like this

Until then, we can all do what we feel is best, and try to support each other in choosing healthier, cruelty free and environmentally friendly options.

http://bringingyouohm.wordpress.com/

Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavanto

'May everyone everywhere be happy
May the whole world be joyous'
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#74 Old 01-29-2007, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Satyagraha View Post

Then why do you sit by and not doing anything about meat works?



Why is it unacceptable to beat a dog, to the point where you would do something about it. But the mass slaughter of cows, pigs and other animals doesn't drive you to do anything?





I do what I can with my very imperfect understanding of my abilities to influence the world and my very imperfect understanding of where the world is at and where it "should" be.



Why do you assume I do nothing about the meat industry or other AR issues? I have written letters to the editor and I have protested. I can assure you that the mass slaughter of cows, pigs and other animals does drive me to do something. I have influenced omnivores to become pescatarians, pescatarians to become veg*ns, omnis to become veg*n. (No veg*ns to veganism though *sigh*). If you want I can get Troub to add up the numbers and show how many animals I have "saved". More than one dog.



I understand that it is much easier to do something about a dog being beaten than to stop a pig from being slaughtered. The point I was making is that when other sentient creatures are being affected by the actions of another person we can't simply sit back and say "you respect the fact that I won't eat meat so I'll respect your choices". That being said I don't think it works to go up to omnis and yell and scream at them and call them horrible names. I also think that some people interested in AR shouldn't get involved. I have a friend in England who says she gets so worked up and distressed and she accomplishes nothing. Her veg*nism is her powerful statement in itself. She a part of the growing number of veg*ns and that is influencial to society. But I do try to influence those around me directly.



The perfect example is with my older brother. He loved to eat meat and would make a point of going to the rib house when my dad came to visit him. I entered into a discussion with my brother and he saw some of what I was saying. He seemed open to hearing more so I wrote to him and sent him some more info. He was certainly interested but he wouldn't be moved. Finally I sent him my copy of Peaceable Kingdom. He went off land animals right then and there. I'll be sending him some info on fish (which he eats occasionally) soon but I won't push him with disrespectful discourses on how omnis are evil people and those who eat fish are omnis. He is very happy that I was open and honest about him on this issue and he's already expressed interest in becoming vegetarian and vegan even. We get along really well and we are on very good terms. He also influences me a lot and I really appreciate that.



With each person it is different though. With my younger brother I was much more diplomatic in approaching him. He still hasn't become veg*n but I respect him very much and we are on very good terms. In fact, with all of my friends that I have approached with veg*n issues, I'm still on very good terms.



My goal is to do more in the future as I'm able. But veg*nism isn't the only issue I'm interested in. One day I would love to live in a community that addresses environmental issues and human rights issues as well. I'm inspired by Gandhi's vision for small village economies that focus on all three issues, though sometimes inadvertantly. (ie irt human rights: if one can produce all the needed items in the village then one wouldn't need to buy things from third world countries.) Gandhi did see usefullness in trading on a small scale.



And when will this happen for me? Will it happen at all? I don't know. Tolstoy didn't leave his society until he was 62. But he died 20 years later disillusioned and I'm hoping to avoid that. So if I see someone beating a dog I'll call the SPCA. If I see someone eating meat I'll wait for an opportunity to approach the issue in a respectful fashion. Sometimes I wait for a very long time. And in the meantime I refuse to think of omnis, or l/o vegetarians or pescaterians as the evil enemies.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Troub View Post

So, is there a circumstance where we are morally obligated to smack someone upside the head and show them that cows and chickens die for the omelette's they eat?



You can be disrobed for talking like that.
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#75 Old 01-29-2007, 08:04 PM
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/edit



"... hug them and gently explain how dairy and eggs hurts animals too"



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#76 Old 01-29-2007, 08:19 PM
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I wish that I had more faith in the goodness of humans and the ability to change them gently and passively.



Well Mr. Sun that was a very interesting read, and Tolstoy and Gandhi are amazing inspirations.
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#77 Old 01-30-2007, 05:40 AM
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Satyagraha, do you believe humans can be changed by force? Do you think changing them by force is effective?
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#78 Old 01-30-2007, 06:44 AM
 
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Now those are the most interesting questions posed so far in this thread, I believe.



Surely, human beings can me made to act in a certain way, by sheer force. That is, a hypothetical vegan army could regulate the diet of the world. Would this produce change though? Me thinks not.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#79 Old 01-30-2007, 07:59 AM
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So yeah i return to these boards every couple months and it seems like I never left. I swear you can just bump the same threads every couple months





Anyway....yeah so I am vegetarian and not vegan. I think for many people that becoming vegan is a process and not an overnight change. My first step was giving up all meat other then seafood. I had my reasoning and it was legit for the my beliefs. Then my beliefs began to change and now I am vegetarian. My beliefs are continuing to change on the subject and I suspect that in the very near future I will be going vegan. But until then spare me your "i am better then you" ****.
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#80 Old 01-30-2007, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

Now those are the most interesting questions posed so far in this thread, I believe.



Surely, human beings can me made to act in a certain way, by sheer force. That is, a hypothetical vegan army could regulate the diet of the world. Would this produce change though? Me thinks not.



A mod trying to get this thread onto a different topic. That's bad Jen!!!

Start a new thread!







Just kidding. But while we are on this topic I would say that I am far more impressed with the likes of Peace Pilgrim, Mother Teresa, Francis of Assisi, Jesus, Buddha, Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi who influenced those around them by their positive example and sharing their thoughts rather than advocating violence. And many of these influencial people could've easily rallied the troops to take up arms.



If MLK used on of his powerful speeches to convince his followers to take to violence there probably would've been a civil war right then and there. Same with Gandhi. Some of Jesus' followers were expecting him to start an army to overthrow the Romans.



Vegan army
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#81 Old 01-30-2007, 12:08 PM
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No people can't be changed by force, merely suppressed, it doesn't change what they're really like inside. Example, there are still many racist people that would like slaves, the law can't change them.



As Ammon Hennacy put it, Oh judge what good are your laws, the good people do not need them and the bad people do not follow them.
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#82 Old 01-30-2007, 12:34 PM
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A mod trying to get this thread onto a different



Vegan army



Kiss Army



http://www.kissonline.com/
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#83 Old 01-30-2007, 12:42 PM
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No people can't be changed by force, merely suppressed, it doesn't change what they're really like inside. Example, there are still many racist people that would like slaves, the law can't change them.



I don't know that that's the best example - the law actually did change the slaveholders in the way that most matters to the people who would be slaves. I don't really care as much about peoples' thoughts as their behavior, and in this case, they can't own slaves, even though they might like to.



So, even if people still wanted to vivisect on animals, for example, if the cost was too high (like, it was illegal), then problem solved. It wouldn't really matter if there were suppressed vivisectors out there. In time it would just become a social norm that it was wrong.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#84 Old 01-30-2007, 12:48 PM
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I don't know that that's the best example - the law actually did change the slaveholders in the way that most matters to the people who would be slaves. I don't really care as much about peoples' thoughts as their behavior, and in this case, they can't own slaves, even though they might like to.



So, even if people still wanted to vivisect on animals, for example, if the cost was too high (like, it was illegal), then problem solved. It wouldn't really matter if there were suppressed vivisectors out there. In time it would just become a social norm that it was wrong.



I don't agree that the problem is solved if people's hearts aren't changed. You haven't fixed the root problem.
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#85 Old 01-30-2007, 12:48 PM
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I don't know that that's the best example - the law actually did change the slaveholders in the way that most matters to the people who would be slaves. I don't really care as much about peoples' thoughts as their behavior, and in this case, they can't own slaves, even though they might like to.



So, even if people still wanted to vivisect on animals, for example, if the cost was too high (like, it was illegal), then problem solved. It wouldn't really matter if there were suppressed vivisectors out there. In time it would just become a social norm that it was wrong.





Yeah, I think the evolution of compassion and the accompanying laws kind of goes hand in hand. We couldn't have a vegan army now because we make up only 1% of the population. But as time goes by and the world becomes more vegan then laws would be passed and certain acts/foods ect. would become illegal. We don't need a "dog protection army" because we have laws against beating dogs. Hopefully some day we'll have laws against vivesection as well. Then if we spot our neighbor testing a new drug on his dog we can call the SPCA and they would take care of it.
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#86 Old 01-30-2007, 12:52 PM
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One needs to change the minds of a large enough number of people to be able to pass any laws. But after passing laws, there will always be a minority of people whose minds haven't changed but who still have to obey. Like Irizary said, the minds of that minority of people don't have to be changed, although it would be better if they were.

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#87 Old 01-30-2007, 09:18 PM
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That's all crap. We don't need more laws.
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#88 Old 01-30-2007, 10:10 PM
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This is almost ridiculous. People are getting worked up and claiming how much better they are than those darn elitists.



Sounds like an elitist attitude.



Hey, I'm better than those people who think they're better than those darn elitist veg*ns. Ha.



But I didn't get back in time to really post this quickly enough. It sounds like people have passed this point and are debating milk and vegan armies.

I believe everything.
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#89 Old 01-30-2007, 10:53 PM
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..."Hey, I'm better than those people who think they're better than those darn elitist veg*ns. Ha." ...



Thats the best part.
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#90 Old 01-31-2007, 04:29 AM
 
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Where were people saying that?




The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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