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#121 Old 10-09-2006, 05:48 AM
 
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The events being referred to in Revelation 20 are yet to occur (at least that's the belief commonly held by mainstream Christianity). The "throwing down", etc. isn't referring to Satan being cast out heaven, but rather confined to Hell, where he won't be able to tempt/harm people (unless of course, they're in Hell too). This is different from the current situation, where he's able to come to Earth and tempt people, yada yada.



Earlier, in Revelation 12, we read about the "war" in heaven, where Satan was cast down to the earth. Rev. 12v12:
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Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

This is the time that is supposedly happening now.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#122 Old 10-09-2006, 08:14 AM
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Did he get a daypass to spend time in the presence of God with the other angels during the Job incident?



An interesting question (more importantly, one I can answer without having to dig through hundreds of pages of scripture). If you read the intro to the Job passage in its fullness, see for yourself based on Satan's response to God's question.



Job 1:

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."



So from Satan's response, we see that he was already roaming through the earth. In that sense, one could argue one of two things. First, it was his responsibility to roam the earth in that manner and thus he was still doing his job (i.e. not thrown out yet). Second, one could argue that he had already been thrown down to earth and thusly was going around the earth trying to find ways to attack God's people. This is the interpretation I would hold, simply based on the conversation they're having.



In the Job text, Satan is clearly presented as an adversary of God. Further, look at God's question.



"Where have you come from?"



This clearly demonstrates that Satan is not living within the will of God. Now God, by assumption (which we can leave out of discussion), knows everything, so one might ask, why is God questioning Satan if He knows everything? One sees the same thing at Adam and Eve after the fall of man (Gen 3:9 and Gen 3:13), and again after Cain kills his brother (Gen 4:9), elsewhere too, but these two references should be enough to prove my point. God questions people in the OT almost as a form of rebuke. The specific meaning of God's questions and so forth is a huge discussion (and, I might add, totally fascinating), and one I will truncate. However, I think it's very reasonable to say that, where you find God asking a question in the OT, it is almost like a form of rebuke. It's like God questions you about things that you've done wrong or after you've done something wrong.



This is my elongated way of saying, the question in and of itself demonstrates that Satan is already living outside the will of God, which means he is already in rebellion.



According to this analysis, it is clear that Satan has rebelled against God. Would God then yet leave him in heaven? Heaven is a place where God's will is *always* done (e.g., let thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven). So therefore it is reasonable to say that if Satan is already in rebellion, he cannot be allowed to stay in heaven. In this way, one can demonstrate that Satan clearly must have been thrown out already.



Nevertheless, your question is still an interesting one. Why is Satan with the other angels when they are presented before the Lord? This question is not explicitly answered. One could equally ask, why did God call for all the angels to be presented before Him? To be honest, I don't know. But for the sake of whether or not Satan is already thrown out of heaven, the question is ... relatively irrelevant, if you know what I mean. You can demonstrate that Satan had to have been thrown out already by analyzing the discourse between Satan and God.



Blam.
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#123 Old 10-09-2006, 10:11 AM
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I disagree with your interpretation, Daral, as we'd expect.



Being in the presence of the Lord indicates that Satan is still allowed in Heaven, and doing God's will, going into the Earth to test men, which is his work for God.



Job2



'On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."



"Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."



6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."'



We see here that Satan is acting as God allows him to act, testing Job, with a special provision that he is to spare Job's life.



You and I interpret these passages based on our different understandings of the role of Satan in the OT. Mine similar to the earlier Judaic view, yours the Christian view. You interpret based on your religious beliefs, I interpret based on historical understanding of the beliefs of the writers of the OT.



Here's a nice overview of Satan in the OT:



http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrich...20050524.shtml
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#124 Old 10-09-2006, 01:40 PM
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We see here that Satan is acting as God allows him to act, testing Job, with a special provision that he is to spare Job's life.



Yes he is acting as God allows him to act, but I don't interpret that to mean that this is Satan's true role.



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Mine similar to the earlier Judaic view



At which time period, might I ask? Earlier Judaic encompasses what, 1000, 2000 years of time, depending on what you mean by earlier? And, of course, millions of people. It is a dubious assertion to call that a singular view, much less that you happen to hold it.



In any case, I've provided multiple references for supporting my point of view (and have left out other multiple references), you've provided no evidence as such.



As far as Satan actually holding a designated role as "provoker of proud humans", there are MANY scriptural references to God testing people. Now why would God use Satan to provoke people if He Himself also tests them?



As far as that "nice overview" goes, once again, it really doesn't support much of its argument. It doesn't even use the Job quote, which contradicts its argument of Satan being some impersonal force in Judaic tradition. So I guess it makes sense that it wouldn't.



In any case, I'm willing to admit that Satan, explicitly, is an infrequent character in the OT. But at the same time, that's a painfully irrelevant statement, isn't it?



Seriously though, you haven't addressed a single point I made. You disagree with me, and that's fabulous, good for you, but you haven't really referenced any of your claims.
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#125 Old 10-09-2006, 01:54 PM
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God sends angels to do his work, as his agents. There are many examples of this.



I certainly don't want to debate your beliefs.



edited to clarify.
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#126 Old 10-09-2006, 02:06 PM
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I could post many references. Here's one:



"Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible. It is worth noting that the Hebrew word for angel is malach, meaning "messenger." The same is true for the English word angel, derived from the Greek word angelos, which also means "messenger." Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of God who carries out the divine will of the Almighty. There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, Satan included, opposes God's will.



In no part of the Bible is this more evident than in the Book of Job. In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears with other angels before God and suggests that Job's steadfast faithfulness would not withstand personal pain and utter destitution. Satan then requests from God the chance to test Job's virtue. The Almighty grants this request, but He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when putting Job to the test. Satan obediently follows his Creator's instructions. Job is immediately put to the test and, by the third chapter, begins to struggle. He questions his Maker as to why he was created and, in a moment of despair, wishes aloud that he had perished in his mother's womb. Still, by the end of this unparalleled biblical narrative, Job's virtue prevails over Satan's unyielding torment."



http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html



For anyone who might be interested in the history of Satan, other references:



"In the 1st century BCE some practicing jewish rabbis and Jews took on many traits of Persian dualistic system in which God and the forces of good and truth were opposed in heaven and on earth by the powerful forces of evil and deceit. This seems to have been under the influence of Persian religion, with its opposition of Ormuzd the good god and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) the evil god, but at the same time Jewish dualism drew on older, native resources in constructing a more elaborate demonology. Ancient mythological themes, and figures from the Bible only potentially demonic, like Satan, were drawn in to fill out the enlarged conception of the role of evil spirits in the cosmos. It is characteristic of this period that the evil spirits are led by a prince, often called Belial but also Mastemah, Satan, or other names. The spirits of good and evil also struggled within the human soul, for in this period the role of demons is often conceived of as that of tempting men to evil rather than of inflicting physical harm. As a result, in many passages it is difficult to say whether "spirit" refers to a demon external to man or to a trait within the human soul. Belial (or Beliar, a corruption of the original form) is the most common name for the leader of the demons in the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the intertestamental literature Belial is "the spirit of perversion, the angel of darkness, the angel of destruction" and other spirits are subject to him."



http://beliefnet.com/boards/message_...ssionID=355453



"The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world (see my article Why did G-d Create the World?). Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d."



http://qumran.com/For_a_Better_Under...e_in_satan.htm
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#127 Old 10-10-2006, 04:07 PM
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I certainly don't want to debate your beliefs.



Ok then.
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#128 Old 10-13-2006, 01:34 AM
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#129 Old 10-15-2006, 07:11 PM
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Do you guys think that Satan knows that he is being used to bring out the good in God's children? I mean Satan tempts us, but God turns it around and uses it to build our character. Isn't that something? I mean, you can't go through life without trials and suffering and troubles. They must happen because that's how God will build up your character, it's how you learn and grow in Jesus. It's how God teaches you.



I mean take Job, God let the devil touch things around him and then he let me touch Job, but not enough to kill Job. God was trying to teach Job that just because you're righteous, you still will suffer and go through the same things that others go though. Like just because you're a christian doesn't mean that you will go through life without troubles. That's not true. We suffer just like other people. Some folks really believe that just because you're a christian, hey, you will be happy all the time. Not true. There is sadness.



So, even though the devil comes at us all day everyday, God will turn that around for good and use it to make you a better person. Haha to you devil.
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#130 Old 10-15-2006, 07:41 PM
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Monika, that's sort of the view the Jews seem to have about Satan, that he knows he is doing God's work, as an angel of God. But they don't see him as a "fallen angel" who was thrown out of Heaven. They see him as either a force or a personality (seems to depend on what rabbi is describing it) who gets in the way of people trying to do the right thing, testing them, to make them have to work to do what God wants. What you say about Christians suffering makes sense from this point of view, as they are being tested to show their faith. Times of trouble are often important to people of faith, either making them stronger in their beliefs, or causing them to doubt and sometimes lose their faith altogether.
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#131 Old 10-16-2006, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SavedbytheBlood View Post

Do you guys think that Satan knows that he is being used to bring out the good in God's children? I mean Satan tempts us, but God turns it around and uses it to build our character. Isn't that something? I mean, you can't go through life without trials and suffering and troubles. They must happen because that's how God will build up your character, it's how you learn and grow in Jesus. It's how God teaches you.



I mean take Job, God let the devil touch things around him and then he let me touch Job, but not enough to kill Job. God was trying to teach Job that just because you're righteous, you still will suffer and go through the same things that others go though. Like just because you're a christian doesn't mean that you will go through life without troubles. That's not true. We suffer just like other people. Some folks really believe that just because you're a christian, hey, you will be happy all the time. Not true. There is sadness.



So, even though the devil comes at us all day everyday, God will turn that around for good and use it to make you a better person. Haha to you devil.



What about the other millions of times that God doesn't turn it around for good? I never understand this point of view about God. If he created us and the world, why would he create suffering in the first place? Why not just create people who already have strong characters, who are genuine and kind, and have a world that is good? If you can "create" the entire world and everything that governs it, then there aren't any 'rules' except the ones you make...so why not make life happy and have no evil or suffering?
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#132 Old 10-16-2006, 10:03 AM
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We have free will.



Which implies we have the free will to do whatever we please. Forcing us to be good woud limit that freedom.
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#133 Old 10-16-2006, 11:34 AM
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There's evidence in the Bible that God Himself makes people unkind to suit his purposes. See the episode of the Isrealites in Egypt, God "hardened Pharoah's heart" against them. That doesn't look much like free will to me.
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#134 Old 10-16-2006, 02:35 PM
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We have free will.



Which implies we have the free will to do whatever we please. Forcing us to be good woud limit that freedom.



Wrong. First, we wouldn't be 'forced' to be good, it would just be that way. If God makes all the rules and creates everything, then he created good and evil and by your own logic, we're being 'forced' to choose between those two everyday. If God created everything, then they could create something else in addition to good and evil, after all, who says those are the only two options when you're creating everything that is?





Freedom is relative. There is no true free will if something else governs what you can or can't do. I want to fly, but I don't have wings...so where is my free will? I don't want to have to depend on food to keep me alive...*searches for free will to make that happen*.
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#135 Old 10-16-2006, 05:12 PM
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"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;

it is not for man to direct his steps.

Correct me, LORD, but only with justice—

not in your anger,

lest you reduce me to nothing."



Jeremiah 10: 23-24
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#136 Old 10-16-2006, 09:45 PM
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We have free will.



Which implies we have the free will to do whatever we please. Forcing us to be good woud limit that freedom.





So...what would you say to a woman in Darfur who, on her way to getting water from a refugee camp, is raped by a Janjaweed militiaman and almost beaten to death, only to make her way back to the camp to die alone (her family has all been murdered) from her wounds? Should she be grateful to God that that rebel had 'free will' to decide between good and evil, even though he chooses evil and she suffers and dies as a result? Grateful that he wasn't 'forced' to be good?
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#137 Old 10-17-2006, 12:25 PM
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What about the other millions of times that God doesn't turn it around for good? I never understand this point of view about God. If he created us and the world, why would he create suffering in the first place? Why not just create people who already have strong characters, who are genuine and kind, and have a world that is good? If you can "create" the entire world and everything that governs it, then there aren't any 'rules' except the ones you make...so why not make life happy and have no evil or suffering?





Well, all that God does for his people is for the betterment of their lives. God set his commandments and principles so that his people can live a better life. There's nothing that God does that harms people. You must also remember that before the fall of MAN, there was no suffering in the world. There was not killing, no hurt or pain, nothing of the sort, the world was new and fresh, and there was no sin. But when Adam and Eve fell, sin came into the world. They disobeyed God. When they did this, they were totally open and without a covering. God was not covering or protecting them. They were exposed. They were perfect before. They walked with God, remember God made Adam fully grown. He was already perfect and had all the characteristics of God, but they both chose to disobey Him. God doesn't force anyone to do anything. He wants people to come to him on their own power. He wants people to seek him.



If we all were perfect, there would be no need for Jesus. His coming would be in vain. Jesus said those that are whole have no need for a physician. He came to save the lost, becauses if people already believe in their hearts that they are righteous without Jesus, then, they have no need to be saved because they already believe they are good. Just like the Pharasis though. God wants people to come to him believing that there is no other help for them but God. He wants people to totally depend on him because he knows the heart of man and he knows that humans are not good in themselves. Remember that God (Jesus) knows how it feels to suffer. He lived on this earth and experienced all that man felt.



So remember that it's because of MAN that there is suffering in the world because there was no suffering before MAN fell.



Hope I helped you. Take care.





Monika
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#138 Old 10-17-2006, 12:30 PM
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"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;

it is not for man to direct his steps.

Correct me, LORD, but only with justice

not in your anger,

lest you reduce me to nothing."



Jeremiah 10: 23-24





Beautiful.
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#139 Old 10-17-2006, 12:49 PM
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Where does that put our belief in Free Will?
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#140 Old 10-17-2006, 12:50 PM
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So...what would you say to a woman in Darfur who, on her way to getting water from a refugee camp, is raped by a Janjaweed militiaman and almost beaten to death, only to make her way back to the camp to die alone (her family has all been murdered) from her wounds? Should she be grateful to God that that rebel had 'free will' to decide between good and evil, even though he chooses evil and she suffers and dies as a result? Grateful that he wasn't 'forced' to be good?





You have to remember that their are two forces that can direct the mind of a MAN. Those forces are God and the devil. These to beings want the mind of humans. They want your soul. There is a war that goes on in your mind when you decide to switch. The bible says that the devil walks around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. So he is like eating up people day and night. Haha. He doesn't want us to follow the principles of God. He wants the mind of MAN. He wants to be your God. You remember how He was tempting Jesus. But Jesus was armed with the word of God, and he came at the devil with it every time the devil tempted him with something.



Man chooses to do good or evil. Man chooses to live a life without God because he does not force himself on people. Yes people are harmed and killed by others everyday, but thank God for the law force. Thank God that people don't get away with things. And believe me, people do not get away with doing wrong toward others. Trust me.



Take care.





Monika
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#141 Old 10-17-2006, 12:52 PM
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Froggy, who is your post too? Haha. :P
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#142 Old 10-17-2006, 01:00 PM
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""Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you. If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you."



Joshua 23:14-16
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#143 Old 10-17-2006, 01:01 PM
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Froggy, who is your post too? Haha. :P



You.
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#144 Old 10-17-2006, 01:19 PM
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Froggy I believe in free will. I believe that God doesn't force people to do anything. You make your own mind up to do whatever you want to. If you decide to kill someone, you have done it. It's done, but see after you do it, you must face the consequences. You can do whatever you want on this earth. A child of God's life is directed by God, and the Holy Spirit even speaks to God's children telling them hey, that's wrong, that's not of God, don't do that, but If you choose not to listen, and do the wrong, you must face the consquences of what you have done. You kill, but you don't get away with anything. You will either be put in prison for what you have done, or if you're not caught, you will have to face God in the end. We all will.
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#145 Old 10-17-2006, 01:20 PM
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And does the verse that Ludi quoted from Jeremiah support this belief?
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#146 Old 10-17-2006, 01:36 PM
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There is no god there is no heaven therefor there is no hell
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#147 Old 10-17-2006, 01:53 PM
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There is no god there is no heaven therefor there is no hell



Oh, Mikey!!
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#148 Old 10-17-2006, 03:00 PM
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I believe in Hell for animals, humans have created it for them.



I agree with you. We create our own hell.



In my religion there is not really a hell (Mormonism) Mormons believe everyone goes to Heaven. So no on hell.
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#149 Old 10-17-2006, 03:17 PM
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IIn my religion there is not really a hell (Mormonism) Mormons believe everyone goes to Heaven. So no on hell.





'When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"



Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."'



Matthew 19:25-26
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#150 Old 10-17-2006, 04:34 PM
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I agree with MikeyVT, I don't believe in God, or heaven, or hell.
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