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#121 Old 07-18-2006, 06:05 AM
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There's a growing concern that this is laying the ground work for air assaults on Iran.



The US is upset at the fair elections in Palestine electing Hamas leadership

The US is upset at the failure to meet their military objectives in Iraq

The US is upset at the failure of meet their military objectives in Afghanistan

Because of the above, Iran is becoming the dominant power in the region (after Israel).



To counter this, the plan may be change the climate:



1) Hizbullah/Hamas neutralised, thereby protecting Israel

2) Syria provoked (Israelli bombings on Lebanese / Syria border)

3) Growing drumbeat of Hizbullah funded/supported by Iran in the western press

4) Increased focus on handful of Israelli casualties vs dozens/hundreds of Lebanese casualties.



All of the above will contribute changing the climate to favour an air bombardment of Iran, possibly including 'bunker buster' nuclear weapons to damage Irans nuclear development program.



Rumours are that if Cheney had his way the US would already have bombarded Iran several times it was the US military that has advised against it. This climate is changing.



Now lets all think about the consequences of the current US adminstrations foriegn policy decisions in the last few years...in fact, can somone name one good decision that was made? Currently we have civil war in Iraq, civil war in Afghanistan, Lebanon becoming another breeding ground for terrorists, and the arab world has watched how the US and Israel have ignored the results of the fair and free elections in Palestine thereby fomenting more anger towards the west.
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#122 Old 07-18-2006, 06:06 AM
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must? **** happens in war, civilians die even with the careful planning the israeli's do (which is obviously much more than a hizbollah rocket attack), it's called the fog of war.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war



I think Milan Kundera defined kitsch the best as "the denial of ****", some great examples of which are Smart Bomb PR, Duck and Cover and like promisses that civilians can be easily spared from the horrors of war (Fallout 2 uses this to great effect). There are still moral principles and the Israelis to their credit follow them well, nobody can intentionally sacrifice the life of an innocent such as Corporal Gilad Shalit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit



Israel has lost their moral high ground. Nobody's buying it anymore. That's a huge tactical defeat for them. A defeat that will have long reaching consequences.
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#123 Old 07-18-2006, 06:07 AM
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You see, the ... thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hizbollah to stop doing this **** and it's over.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle1183388.ece

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#124 Old 07-18-2006, 06:16 AM
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Israel has lost their moral high ground. Nobody's buying it anymore.

Where do you get that idea? The editorial board of the NY Times? Daily Worker? Al Jazeera?

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#125 Old 07-18-2006, 06:28 AM
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Where do you get that idea? The editorial board of the NY Times? Daily Worker? Al Jazeera?



You should stop reading newsmax and find some more balanced news sources, preferably international.



Most of the people that I talk to think the latest response by Israel is over the top, heavy handed and completely unwarrented. I'm talking about average people at the water-cooler in the office. Israel has blown it big tme.



And as the US learned in Vietnam, you cannot bomb people into submission. It doesn't work. Israels current tactics are just breeding more hatred and terrorists against themselves. Even the Christians in Lebanon are shocked by this respones (and they are no friends of hizbullah).
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#126 Old 07-18-2006, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

You should stop reading newsmax and find some more balanced news sources, preferably international.

yeah Newsmax is crap, so is The Independent but I'm not picky when I just need them for a straight quote. I get The Economist and watch the Daily Show and Colbert Report regularly, what periodicals should I subscribe to if I'm to see things more your way? High Times?



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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Most of the people that I talk to think the latest response by Israel is over the top, heavy handed and completely unwarrented. I'm talking about average people at the water-cooler in the office. Israel has blown it big tme.

My experience is the opposite, people are seeing Israel on the roadmap while Palestinians take steps backward into not recognizing Israel's right to exist and not renouncing terrorism. The idea that the occupation is what produces violence is now dispelled since the Israel's completely left gaza and lebanon.



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And as the US learned in Vietnam, you cannot bomb people into submission. It doesn't work.

half-assed vietnam comparison, mention something that happened in vietnam ergo it doesn't work. One could draw a few other half-assed conclusions as well such as Negotiation doesn't work, Hearts and Minds doesn't work, Geneva Convention doesn't work. Do yourself a favor, get yourself a copy of Robert McNamara's "In Retrospect" and work on some fully assed comparisons to share with us later, it's a great book.

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Israels current tactics are just breeding more hatred and terrorists against themselves.

I think the first time I heard that was MoveOn's protests against the multinational invasion of Afghanistan...

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Even the Christians in Lebanon are shocked by this respones (and they are no friends of hizbullah).

They should be, Syria is ****ing with them again and they have terrorists in their parliament and the insecurity is going to ruin their economy and turn their country into a warzone for a proxy fight.



What would you do if you were Israel? just explain to your people that you don't have the right to exist or defend yourself and should have all marched into the gas chambers 60 years ago?

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#127 Old 07-18-2006, 08:19 AM
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yeah Newsmax is crap, so is The Independent but I'm not picky when I just need them for a straight quote. I get The Economist and watch the Daily Show and Colbert Report regularly, what periodicals should I subscribe to if I'm to see things more your way? High Times?



My experience is the opposite, people are seeing Israel on the roadmap while Palestinians take steps backward into not recognizing Israel's right to exist and not renouncing terrorism. The idea that the occupation is what produces violence is now dispelled since the Israel's completely left gaza and lebanon.



half-assed vietnam comparison, mention something that happened in vietnam ergo it doesn't work. One could draw a few other half-assed conclusions as well such as Negotiation doesn't work, Hearts and Minds doesn't work, Geneva Convention doesn't work. Do yourself a favor, get yourself a copy of Robert McNamara's "In Retrospect" and work on some fully assed comparisons to share with us later, it's a great book.

I think the first time I heard that was MoveOn's protests against the multinational invasion of Afghanistan...

They should be, Syria is ****ing with them again and they have terrorists in their parliament and the insecurity is going to ruin their economy and turn their country into a warzone for a proxy fight.



What would you do if you were Israel? just explain to your people that you don't have the right to exist or defend yourself and should have all marched into the gas chambers 60 years ago?



Israel marched into Palestine and 'kidnapped' elected members of the new governement. Not one or two, but many. How would the USA react if Mexico did the same? Right. Palestine reacted just like the USA would, except in a slightly more restrained way, they kidnapped Israelli soldiers (not citizens, soldiers) to use as a barganining chip to get their people back. Israel reacted to this with (IMHO) over the top force which is now killing innocent civilians. Israel has in the past peformed many prisoner exchanges. Perhaps thats what the militants were expecting: a simple prisoner exchange to get their politicians back. Instead they got kids dead in the streets, mass exodus and a ruined economy.



As far as tactics go, the people who may have been on the fence in Lebanon are now saying 'We will never surrender, you cannot invade us, we will fight back' and so on and so forth. IN other words, they are being pushed into the arms of the extremists. And for every woman or kid killed in the bombing, there's a cousin or two who are pushed over the edge and are now beating a track to Hizbullahs arms to fight the invaders. And all over the greater middle east and beyond, extremist recruiters simply have to turn on the news to convince impressionable minds that Israel and the USA are 'blood thirsty tyrants with no regard for human rights' and so on and so forth. Again, terrorists are created with every bomb dropped.



If the UK had used these tactics against the IRA, there'd still be bombs in London and Manchester. But they chose to use restraint and diplomacy and now the IRA is dis-armed and haven't launched a bomb in years.



You can use a gun or you can use your brain to deal with these issues. Using a gun will address an immediate problem while creating bigger problems further down the road. Israel will be learning that lesson in very near future just as the US did in Vietnam.
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#128 Old 07-18-2006, 09:12 AM
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what is going on here is that people are dying, kids are being killed and maimed and everybody is claiming they are right for bombing other people. it's friggin' insanity but people end up arguing about whether one side is a little more insane than the other.
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#129 Old 07-18-2006, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

You should stop reading newsmax and find some more balanced news sources, preferably international.







And you believe any news source is unbiased?



Quote:

Most of the people that I talk to think the latest response by Israel is over the top, heavy handed and completely unwarrented. I'm talking about average people at the water-cooler in the office. Israel has blown it big tme.



Wow. Well, I guess since the people Mr. Falafel hangs with in bus station bathrooms say so, then it must be true.
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#130 Old 07-18-2006, 09:32 AM
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Some good news! People are starting to protest in Israel! Now we need to get people in Lebanon to protest Hizbullah and people in gaza to protest their own extremists and maybe we'd be getting somewhere.



Quote:
2,000 Israelis March in Tel Aviv to Demand End to Offensive



Around 2,000 people marched in Israel's commercial capital of Tel Aviv on Sunday to demand an end to the punishing offensive against Lebanon that has left some 150 dead, organizers said.

"Yes to a prisoner exchange," chanted the demonstrators, referring to the key demand of Hizbullah that snatched two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid Wednesday, unleashing the Israeli offensive.



"Yes to peace," "Our children want to live," cried the mixed crowd of Jewish and Arab demonstrators.



The rally, organized by half a dozen Israeli pacifist groups, lasted around two hours before being dispersed by police.(AFP)



Pic of protest http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...6?OpenDocument



Isn't it amazing how this newsbyte is almost nowhere to be found in western press? Why is that?
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#131 Old 07-18-2006, 09:34 AM
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And you believe any news source is unbiased?







Wow. Well, I guess since the people Mr. Falafel hangs with in bus station bathrooms say so, then it must be true.



Ha, I know that all news sources are biased hence I get my news from several in order to find out whats really going on.



And tell me, how can you type of messageboards? I thought you'd be out waving a flag or something
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#132 Old 07-18-2006, 09:36 AM
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Israel marched into Palestine and 'kidnapped' elected members of the new governement. Not one or two, but many. How would the USA react if Mexico did the same? Right. Palestine reacted just like the USA would, except in a slightly more restrained way, they kidnapped Israelli soldiers (not citizens, soldiers) to use as a barganining chip to get their people back.



Total BS. Not even close to reality, but hey, Mr. Falafel says so, so it must be true.



Quote:
Israel reacted to this with (IMHO) over the top force which is now killing innocent civilians.



Like the civilians killed by terrorist attacks in Israel over the past 60 years?



Quote:
Israel has in the past peformed many prisoner exchanges. Perhaps thats what the militants were expecting: a simple prisoner exchange to get their politicians back. Instead they got kids dead in the streets, mass exodus and a ruined economy.



Maybe Israel realized that continuing to deal with the other side was never going to work?





Quote:
If the UK had used these tactics against the IRA, there'd still be bombs in London and Manchester. But they chose to use restraint and diplomacy and now the IRA is dis-armed and haven't launched a bomb in years.



Did the IRA have as part of its mission the desire to wipe out everyone in England?

Was it being funded by nations with deep pockets and the fundamental desire to wipe out England? No?

Then don't make faulty comparisons.
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#133 Old 07-18-2006, 09:37 AM
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*sigh*



You could blame it all on Ellie Wiesel, the all-time

professional victim.



Ellie is consistent though, consistently boring.

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#134 Old 07-18-2006, 09:37 AM
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Ha, I know that all news sources are biased hence I get my news from several in order to find out whats really going on.



All those sources, and you still don't know ****. Amazing.



Quote:

And tell me, how can you type of messageboards?



Once again, in english please.
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#135 Old 07-18-2006, 09:42 AM
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Blame it all on professional victim Ellie Wiesel---

----the ultimate bore.
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#136 Old 07-18-2006, 09:46 AM
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Blame it all on professional victim Ellie Wiesel---

----the ultimate bore.





You mean Elie Wiesel?

http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/



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#137 Old 07-18-2006, 09:56 AM
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Total BS. Not even close to reality, but hey, Mr. Falafel says so, so it must be true.







Like the civilians killed by terrorist attacks in Israel over the past 60 years?







Maybe Israel realized that continuing to deal with the other side was never going to work?









Did the IRA have as part of its mission the desire to wipe out everyone in England?

Was it being funded by nations with deep pockets and the fundamental desire to wipe out England? No?

Then don't make faulty comparisons.



Deputy Prime Minister & Minister of Education and Higher Education, Dr. Nasseruddin Al-Shaer

Dr. Omar Abdul-Razeq Minister of Finance

Samir Abu Eisheh Minister of Planning

Issa Al-Jabari Minister of Local Government

Fakhri Al-Turkuman - Minister of Social Affairs

Mohammad Al-Barghouthi Minister of Labor

Nasser Abdul-Jawad Minister of Prisoners Affairs

Nayef Al-Rjoub Minister of Religious Affairs (Awqaf)

Engineer Khaled Abu Arafah Minister of Jerusalem Affairs



etc have all been kidnapped and detained without trial by Israelli forces prior to hamas and hizbullah kidpapping soldiers.



Lets do a body count over the last few years, shall we?

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/proje...-casualty.html



Israelli civilians killed: 319

Palestininans, in the west bank: 1,538



Seems a little uneven, doesn't it?





So instead of dealing with 'other side's fairly elected government, they've decided to stomp them to death? I guess we should all follow that methodology and stomp to death anyone whom you have a conflict with. And as explained before, this tactic will simply create more terrorists in the long run making things worse for the average israelli.



The US funds Israel to the tune of 3 BILLION dollars a year, on average. A third of that goes directly to it military. So every american can look at the carnage of dead Lebanese children and proudly say 'my tax dollars at work'!



As I've said before, there are no clean hands in that region.



You can always tell when Tame is owned when he goes after the poster instead of the subject at hand. What, doesn't Rush Limbaugh have an answer for the above?
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#138 Old 07-18-2006, 10:04 AM
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Deputy Prime Minister & Minister of Education and Higher Education, Dr. Nasseruddin Al-Shaer

Dr. Omar Abdul-Razeq Minister of Finance

Samir Abu Eisheh Minister of Planning

Issa Al-Jabari Minister of Local Government

Fakhri Al-Turkuman - Minister of Social Affairs

Mohammad Al-Barghouthi Minister of Labor

Nasser Abdul-Jawad Minister of Prisoners Affairs

Nayef Al-Rjoub Minister of Religious Affairs (Awqaf)

Engineer Khaled Abu Arafah Minister of Jerusalem Affairs



etc have all been kidnapped and detained without trial by Israelli forces prior to hamas and hizbullah kidpapping soldiers.



Lets do a body count over the last few years, shall we?

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/proje...-casualty.html



Israelli civilians killed: 319

Palestininans, in the west bank: 1,538



Seems a little uneven, doesn't it?



Just shows the Arabs are piss poor fighters. Probably why they have lost every war against Israel.



Oh, and *why* did Israel "kidnap" those "gentlemen"? Let's see how honest you actually are.



Quote:

So instead of dealing with 'other side's fairly elected government, they've decided to stomp them to death? I guess we should all follow that methodology and stomp to death anyone whom you have a conflict with. And as explained before, this tactic will simply create more terrorists in the long run making things worse for the average israelli.



Considering the goal of that other "government" is to wipe out Israel...yep, stomping them out sounds like a plan.



Funny, you will defend any action a terrorist organization engages in. Weird.



Quote:

The US funds Israel to the tune of 3 BILLION dollars a year, on average. A third of that goes directly to it military. So every american can look at the carnage of dead Lebanese children and proudly say 'my tax dollars at work'!



I look at the lack of Israeli children lying dead in the street, and I keep in mind that if Hezbollah and Hamas would have stopped attacking Israel and accepted their existence years ago, that no children would be dying now.



As I've said before, there are no clean hands in that region.



Quote:
You can always tell when Tame is owned when he goes after the poster instead of the subject at hand.







Quote:
What, doesn't Rush Limbaugh have an answer for the above?



Funny that you claim to be so open minded but parrot the leftist, anti-semitic line. Must be why you assume your opponents lack original thought. Heck, the last one you had left a stain in your undershorts.





BTW, to correct some factual errors you made earlier in this thread, Afghanistan was still in a civil war in 2001 prior to the US invasion after 9/11, and Lebanon has been a terrorist breeding ground since the 80s.
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#139 Old 07-19-2006, 12:59 AM
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Arabs are piss poor fighters? I guess those kids being shelled in Lebanon or Gaza haven't had enough training? Or perhaps those women and old people need to be able to afford better arms? Perhaps the US should spend another 3 BILLION dollars per year funding them as well so they can have a fair fight? Please. I cannot believe someone is defending this action. Every humanitarian organisation is condemming the level of Isreal's response to this. Except Tame. I guess you enjoy watching children die? Or do you just enjoy watching arab children die?



And you think its OK for someone to waltz in to another country and kidnap anyone you suspect of a crime and then lock them up without a trial or charge? How bizarre.



Palestinians lived together with Israellis more or less peacefully for decades albeit in an apartheid state. They just got tired of the constant harrassment and oppression of this apartheid state. If Israel had dealt with them as human beings rather than chattle perhaps a revolution or infitada could have been avoided. But we are where we are.



Ever wonder WHY the extremists are on the ascendent in that area? Is it perhaps because moderates have been marginalised by successive Israelli governments? What happens when moderates are ignored? The people get fed up and go to hte extremists for action. That's what's happened.



You see, the brits dealt with moderates in the IRA. Yes, there were factions within the IRA calling for the death of all protestants in N Ireland and all sorts of stupid things. But Britain silenced or marginalised those extremists by making diplomatic progress with the moderates within the IRA. Thats how you make peace.



All Israel is doing now is making more terrorists. 100,000 Lebanese are homeless or displaced right now. How do you think they and their families feel about the Israellis now? How many of their children will grow up to join hizbullah?
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#140 Old 07-19-2006, 03:13 AM
 
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You mean Elie Wiesel?

http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/



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No kidding. Attacking someone who's spent his entire adult life fighting injustice. Nice way to join the board.

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#141 Old 07-19-2006, 04:25 AM
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Or do you just enjoy watching arab children die?

you really know how to hit rock bottom like a Katyusha rocket on an israeli playground.



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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Palestinians lived together with Israellis more or less peacefully for decades albeit in an apartheid state. They just got tired of the constant harrassment and oppression of this apartheid state. If Israel had dealt with them as human beings rather than chattle perhaps a revolution or infitada could have been avoided. But we are where we are.

Way to not get tied down on specifics in this case, I don't even know what century you're talking about now.



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All Israel is doing now is making more terrorists. 100,000 Lebanese are homeless or displaced right now. How do you think they and their families feel about the Israellis now? How many of their children will grow up to join hizbullah?

Of all the Nazis the Allies bombed, how many of their children grew up to join the Nazi party? You must acknowledge that there are big holes in the logic of this rhetoric you keep repeating.

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#142 Old 07-19-2006, 04:59 AM
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you really know how to hit rock bottom like a Katyusha rocket on an israeli playground.



Way to not get tied down on specifics in this case, I don't even know what century you're talking about now.



Of all the Nazis the Allies bombed, how many of their children grew up to join the Nazi party? You must acknowledge that there are big holes in the logic of this rhetoric you keep repeating.



Big holes in my logic? There's big holes in Israels government policy, hence all the fighting...



Successive Isrealli administrations have pursued a hardline towards Palestinians and the effect is evident. Just look at the last 10+ years of infitada in the region. It takes two to tango. Cause and effect. If you oppress people they will fight back.



You're comparing Palestine to Nazi Germnay? You should compare Palestine to Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan: areas of poverty with a populace determined to not be crushed by an invader. It simply cannot be done. Talk to anyone familiar with military strategy. You can kill and kill and kill and more will take their place, even more determined than their predecessors.



All I want is for everyone to live together in peace. Israel is creating more terrorists. Terrorists kill Israellis. Surely its in Israels best interest not to create more terrorists?



And don't forget: Israel has one of the best armed and best trained militarys in the world. They have the latest weaponry, the best guidance systems. And, they have Mossad, one of the most effective and successful and respected intelligence organisations in the world. So why, with this ability to gather intelligence about their targets and their ability to precisely aim their weapons, do they target women and kids in residential areas? Why do they have to lay waste to an entire economy of a country on the actions of a small minority of its citizens? Is it incomptence or sheer bloodthirstyness?
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#143 Old 07-19-2006, 05:28 AM
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If you oppress people they will fight back.

and if you pull out of Gaza and Lebanon they'll still kidnap your people because you're jews and your very existence in the holy land is an insult to muslim fanatics? I really don't see how that initial statement follows, recently the jews gave a lot toward peace and got nothing but bombs and death in return. If you can't get over your hatred of Israel maybe you should look at how your beloved Hizbollah is pulling Lebanon into a war nobody wants.



The government of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt are now also saying Hizbollah is wrong to attack Israel, I don't know where you perceive your consensus.

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#144 Old 07-19-2006, 05:48 AM
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and if you pull out of Gaza and Lebanon they'll still kidnap your people because you're jews and your very existence in the holy land is an insult to muslim fanatics? I really don't see how that initial statement follows, recently the jews gave a lot toward peace and got nothing but bombs and death in return. If you can't get over your hatred of Israel maybe you should look at how your beloved Hizbollah is pulling Lebanon into a war nobody wants.



The government of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt are now also saying Hizbollah is wrong to attack Israel, I don't know where you perceive your consensus.



Of course its wrong to attack Israel. Duh! They're terrorists, its what terrorists do. However, the Isrealli government is not a terrorist organisation. It's supposed to abide by the Geneva Convention. And retributions towards an entire people based on the actions of a minority of those peoples is against the Geneva Convention. Those 100,000 displace lebanese, not to mention the dead ones, are being punished by Israel for the work of a tiny minority of terrorists in their midsts. And you're defending that. What other parts of the Geneva Convention are you against?



Do you really think every man woman and child in Palestine hates Jews? Really? They didn't used to. Jews, Christians and Muslims have been living together in more or less peace for hundreds of years. Its only in the last couple of generations that this major institutionalised trouble has begun.



And you have completely ignored my statement that the people in the region were more or less moderates until they were pushed into the arms of extremists. And even in the extremes, only a tiny minority are actively involved in conflict with Israel. The rest are just people who want to get on with their lives without getting dumped on.



Repeat: I want peace in that region. Peace for Isreallis, Palestinians, Lebanese and the rest of them. The current actions of Israel are just creating more terrorists to attack them.
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#145 Old 07-19-2006, 07:46 AM
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Repeat: I want peace in that region. Peace for Isreallis, Palestinians, Lebanese and the rest of them. The current actions of Israel are just creating more terrorists to attack them.



It's funny how you keep saying it as if this is the main problem in this war.

Maybe the blame in having terrorist should be on those who choose to be terrorists?

You do not accept the claim about Israel being forced to fight back, but somehow you think it's obvious that it's Israel's fault there are terrorists, because Israel forces them to be terrorists.

Well, they can choose not to. It's hard, some will need to sacrifice some things in the way, but that's an option. When someone choose to be a terrorist, that's a choise. We can always blame him\\her for making that choise, even if others made it an easy choise for him\\her.
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#146 Old 07-19-2006, 09:39 AM
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It's funny how you keep saying it as if this is the main problem in this war.

Maybe the blame in having terrorist should be on those who choose to be terrorists?

You do not accept the claim about Israel being forced to fight back, but somehow you think it's obvious that it's Israel's fault there are terrorists, because Israel forces them to be terrorists.

Well, they can choose not to. It's hard, some will need to sacrifice some things in the way, but that's an option. When someone choose to be a terrorist, that's a choise. We can always blame him\\her for making that choise, even if others made it an easy choise for him\\her.



Terrorists are not born, they are created. The hardline approach has accomplished nothing in the last decades as evidenced by the continuing aggresssion against Israel. In fact, one could say its getting worse. This is proof the hardline approach is NOT WORKING. Why not try a tactic that may have a chance of working?



You cannot kill all Palestinians. You cannot kill all terrorists. But you CAN reason with the moderates. By dealing with moderates, you marginalise the extremists and their power declines. When the populace sees the moderates making progress against the many UN resolutions ignored by Israel and other issues, they will see that peace and prospertity is within their grasp and shun the extremists. People just want to get on with their lives. Extremists are crazy *******s and they only turn to them when moderates fail. Its common sense.



You can create more terrorists with incursions or attacks or you can create friends by reasoning with moderates towards a mutually agreed wayto live with, or next to, each other.



We all expect terrorists to take the low road. But by Israel taking the high road and taking it on the chin (within reason) while working towards a positive solution, you can acheive what the UK has done with the IRA.
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#147 Old 07-19-2006, 11:27 AM
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You cannot kill all Palestinians. You cannot kill all terrorists.



I do not wish to do that (dahhh).



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But you CAN reason with the moderates.

Sometimes you can, but it's not as simple as you make it.



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You can create more terrorists with incursions or attacks or you can create friends by reasoning with moderates towards a mutually agreed wayto live with, or next to, each other.



That sounds great. Be operative, how do you do it?

You stated that Israel's action creates more hate and therefore terrorism. Terror attacks also create hate, you can't ignore it. That's an obvious obsticle in the prosses. You may think it's easy to see that terrorists are a minority and there is someone to talk to, but that's not so easy to convince people to see it when they live in fear. I dare you to try, I'll be happy if you'll succeed.





BTW, when we say that-of course terrorists do bad things, they are terrorists, we mustn't forget that an army isn't exactly a peace & love organisation. It's not based on pure hate, but it is a violent organisation. If we're not surprised that terror organisation do "terrorists things", we shouldn't be surprised that an army takes violent action.

I don't claim that it's the same or should be the same, but I think we should face it, an army isn't based on something good. It's not the complite opposite to terror organisations so we shouldn't relate to it as one.
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#148 Old 07-19-2006, 03:10 PM
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Of course its wrong to attack Israel. Duh! They're terrorists, its what terrorists do. However, the Isrealli government is not a terrorist organisation. It's supposed to abide by the Geneva Convention. And retributions towards an entire people based on the actions of a minority of those peoples is against the Geneva Convention. Those 100,000 displace lebanese, not to mention the dead ones, are being punished by Israel for the work of a tiny minority of terrorists in their midsts. And you're defending that. What other parts of the Geneva Convention are you against?

I am interested in international law, you're going to have to cite that bit of the Geneva Convention because I've seen people like Indian Summer make up international law by themselves. Hizbullah are in the Lebanese parliament, that means terrorists are represented in the Lebanese government, do they have to be a majority party before they can be attacked under the geneva convention? To be honest I don't think you can say much about the displaced, people that live in Lebanon know the threat of violence is always there, it's kind of like a Jewish settler in a disputed, insecure area.

* This post may contain pork, beef and fingers of undocumented workers. This post was manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts.
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#149 Old 07-19-2006, 03:50 PM
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otomik - Mr. Falafel is misconstruing the intent of that portion of the Geneva Convention. For some reason he thinks that a military force striking legitimate targets someone is considered an attack against the civilian population. The intent of that portion is aimed at direct, essentially non-military actions against civilians (i.e. strafing refugees, executing civilians for actions of others, etc.)

He also forgets that while Lebanese civilians and what little military it has are protected by the Geneva Convention, terrorist groups are not (non-uniformed enemy combatants.)



Of course, he also claimed the (alleged) kidnapping of members of Hamas explains the incursion and attack by Hezbollah. He also forgets that Hezbollah was supposed to be disarmed according to a UN resolution.



In addition, he continues to ignore that Hezbollah does not act in a vacuum, and makes no mention of the involvement of Syria and Iran, and how that makes this situation vastly different than Northern Ireland (and that's without even bringing up the rocket attacks and so forth, which are something the IRA never had the capacity to direct at London.)



In other words, he says a lot, but understands very little.
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#150 Old 07-19-2006, 06:22 PM
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Isreal is not in the wrong concerning this war. Isreal is in a constate state of defense and several Countrys in teh region dont even believe Isreal should exist. This is a country that has been taking lots of flack in the recent years
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