Veg*nism and abortion - Page 9 - VeggieBoards
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#241 Old 11-29-2006, 10:18 PM
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you like to give it but you don't like to take it. too bad.

I believe that shoe fits you. Your pompous attitude and better than thou only goes to prove it.
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#242 Old 11-29-2006, 10:24 PM
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I believe that shoe fits you. Your pompous attitude and better than thou only goes to prove it.

awe, don't fret joe.
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#243 Old 11-29-2006, 10:25 PM
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awe, don't fret joe.

I give up your too good for me
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#244 Old 11-29-2006, 10:38 PM
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So... lets see, the fetus is incapable of feeling pain in the first trimester, but the pain receptors start to form in the 7th week?



Slightly contradictory if you ask me. That reads, to ME, that the baby can feel by the 7th week, in pain's most rudamentory form, at least. Pain, for example. Pain, comfort. Those 2 would be apparent to the fetus by this point.



So based on what I've read from you (and others) so far is that after baby can feel pain, abortion would be wrong? So abortion after the 7th week would not be OK in your book?



I have coppied a article below that states a belief that is widley held in the scientific community about the ability of a fetus to feel pain.



Does a human fetus feel pain? And if so, at what stage of development? The scientific debate rages this week in series of articles published in the British Medical Journal.



"Pain is a complex phenomenon which can include feeling, suffering, and learning," write Dr. Vivette Glover and Prof. Nicholas Fisk from the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Queen Charlotte's and Chelsea Hospital in London. "Even if the nature of the experience changes with development, this does not prove that immature humans cannot be distressed by pain."



Some authors argue that whether a fetus feels pain hinges not on its biological development, but on the development of consciousness.



According to Dr. Stuart Derbyshire, professor of radiology at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, a number of studies suggest that 26 weeks is the developmental point at which the experience of pain arises. But he says that a fetus cannot tell the difference between pain from a reflex (automatic) reaction to some form of "noxious" sensation.



"Fetal pain is therefore a misnomer at any stage of development," Derbyshire writes. "Scientific evidence suggests that women considering abortion can be assured that fetuses do not experience pain in the way that those who oppose abortion claim," he adds.



But others argue that measures of "hormonal stress responses" in the unborn during invasive procedures such as abortion and birth indicate that the fetus is suffering.



Glover and Fisk argue that it seems likely a fetus can feel pain when certain neural connections are established. Though we cannot measure pain, they say, we can measure fetal hormone changes indicating stress.



"The fetus may be subject to different kinds of stress or pain during invasive procedures, termination, and even birth," they write, adding that pregnancy terminations are usually carried out before 20 weeks, "when it is uncertain if the fetus feels anything at all."



Glover and Fisk suggest that until evidence arrives to the contrary, "those conducting later terminations should try to use methods that are likely to cause as little suffering as possible."



Weighing in on the side of Derbyshire, Dr. Zbigniew Szawarski of the University of Wales in Swansea, argues that a fetus probably feels no pain in the absence of a "sense of self."



And Dr. Adrian Lloyd Thomas of Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London agrees. He says using current definitions of feeling and pain, the answer to "Can a fetus feel pain?" must be "no."



However, Lloyd Thomas notes that the nervous system of the unborn baby "mounts protective responses to tissue injury starting before the last trimester. More research is urgently needed, he writes, adding that "it may now be pertinent to consider pain control in medical procedures for fetuses in the last trimester."
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#245 Old 11-29-2006, 10:43 PM
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I also believe that unborn fetus's...other then those who are at or very close to the time of viability...are unable to feel pain....and even then not nessicarley pain or suffering as we understand it. There is a mountian of scientific research to show this consistintly. If I ever needed a late term abortion (they are not elective) I would certinially insist on some sort of pain controol for the fetus to ensure that he/she suffered as little sensation/pain as possible during the procedure.
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#246 Old 11-30-2006, 01:06 AM
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Something is being killed, so where is all the compassion?

Lets see what is the argument??? A bee or an unborn child?

A fish or a fetus? Maybe we should eat the fetus? It's Vegan isn't? Isn't it comparable to a plant?

I think I heard that argument? Vegetarian at least?
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#247 Old 11-30-2006, 04:01 AM
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Ok, calm down, and tell me something.



Would you choose to abort a child, who has not yet had a taste of the world, rather than bring it into the world, let it taste the wonders of life, and then have it killed by a crazed mother because she can't feed it or herself, and because her husband has run off, she hates him, and the baby is the splitting image of him?



That's a worse case scenario, but here's a real one I heard from my Christian Studies teacher...



A woman came up to my teacher and asked to confess something. When my teacher said go ahead, the woman confessed that she was having trouble paying for her drug addiction and was selling her 2 year old daughter off for sex, to whoever would pay the most each night. Apparently her daughter made more money from the profession than she did, and she could keep up her ice addiction this way. That was the sole reason she had the baby.



A TWO YEAR OLD GIRL. Would abortion have been better?



What about all the people, teenagers, who prostitute themselves to pay for food for themselves and the family their parents have had in africa, and have lots of children, passing down aids to each of them. Is it better to have to live with a immune deficiency in a country where there are diseases aplenty, horrible, painful diseases, ready to take advantage of a lacking immune system? Or would they have been better off aborting?



What if the doctors detected something had gone wrong with your pregnancy, and your child would be majorly deformed and never live a normal life. Would you abort then, or let the child be teased, tormented, and then spend it's life in an institute?



If you were told you were too weak to have the child and you would die in childbirth, would you abort? Would you make your spouse abort, if you are a guy?



Personally, from the first heartbeat, i think it is wrong to abort, because that is when I believe life begins. But it would still be better to abort in such extreme cases as mentioned above. Be cruel to be kind.
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#248 Old 11-30-2006, 06:43 AM
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luv-for-all:

"Apparently her daughter made more money from the profession than she did, and she could keep up her ice addiction this way. That was the sole reason she had the baby. A TWO YEAR OLD GIRL. Would abortion have been better?"



Let's assume that it would have been better. However — legalized abortion where the mother gets the distinction of being the only one having the choice - which is what the pro-choice movement is clearly for - would not have kept this child from being born and becoming a 2-year old prostitute. You said yourself that the mother chose to have the baby, for this very reason. She could have had an abortion, but she chose not to. The pro-choice position would allow this mother to do exactly what she did. She could not be forced to have an abortion if she wanted the baby - and she wanted to have a baby.



A situation where this particular mother in this particular situation, would abort the pregnancy, so that it would not develop into a 2-year-old prostitute, would be called "forced abortion" not "pro-choice."
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#249 Old 11-30-2006, 06:54 AM
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Here is another good embryo-fetal-development and pregnancy site.
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#250 Old 11-30-2006, 07:25 AM
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I am 100% pro-choice.



I feel as though if you want to have an abortion, you should have every right to- but if you don't want to have one for religious (or any other) reasons, there is no reason to push it on people. That is why the option should at least be open.



My mother became pregnant shortly after she gave birth to me. If she hadn't had an abortion, she either would have had a miscarriage, or she might have even died due to complications. There is also the fact that, at this time, her four year old son was struggling with cancer (my brother), and her pre-mature daughter was still in the hospital (my self). There is the age old debate "Well if they had un-protected sex then they deserve it", when there is such a thing as vulnerability, or mistakes.



And besides, the world is over-populated as it is. Let's bring another miserable child in to this world, shall we? Or no, let's make abortion illegal and just pass out coat-hangers where the abortion clinic used to be- that would make more sense.
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#251 Old 11-30-2006, 08:14 AM
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Abortion= the killing of your unborn child, There is really no otherway to put it.
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#252 Old 11-30-2006, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Joe View Post

Abortion= the killing of your unborn child, There is really no otherway to put it.



yes, and?



I know what abortion is. and i'm still pro choice.
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#253 Old 11-30-2006, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegan Joe View Post

Abortion= the killing of your unborn child, There is really no otherway to put it.

Calling fetus at all stages of its development a 'child' may already distort the issue in the pro-lifers' favor.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#254 Old 11-30-2006, 09:40 AM
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It just seems so cold... knowing it is your child, and killing it anyway.



If it is growing and developing into a human, what else IS it? It's not going to turn into a cat or a cow or a giraffe. It has no potential to be anything BUT a human child.



That IS WHAT IT IS: A CHILD. PERIOD.
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#255 Old 11-30-2006, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bekajoi View Post

It just seems so cold... knowing it is your child, and killing it anyway.



If it is growing and developing into a human, what else IS it? It's not going to turn into a cat or a cow or a giraffe. It has no potential to be anything BUT a human child.



That IS WHAT IT IS: A CHILD. PERIOD.

I don't know, I see this terminological question as pretty arbitrary. Calling a fertilized egg cell "a human being" seems kinda bizarre to me.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#256 Old 11-30-2006, 10:35 AM
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Calling fetus at all stages of its development a 'child' may already distort the issue in the pro-lifers' favor.

Refering to it as a "non-existent being" is ludicrous.
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#257 Old 11-30-2006, 10:57 AM
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I have never referred to a fetus as a non-existent being.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#258 Old 11-30-2006, 11:42 AM
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Nope. We should have a poll:



As a non-existent being, I wanted to be alive

VS

As a non-existent being, I wanted to remain non-existent



And both answers would be incorrect because non-existent beings don't have wants.

enlighten me.
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#259 Old 11-30-2006, 11:51 AM
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I think enlightening you would be a pretty daunting task.



I'll admit though that my comment wasn't directly relevant to what came before it. In any case we cannot argue against abortion by saying that we now wish we would have not been aborted. That is a wish that we now have. Had we been aborted at an early stage of our development, no wish of anyone would have been violated.

"and I stand

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made of weak and useless men"

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#260 Old 11-30-2006, 12:33 PM
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luv-for-all:

"Apparently her daughter made more money from the profession than she did, and she could keep up her ice addiction this way. That was the sole reason she had the baby. A TWO YEAR OLD GIRL. Would abortion have been better?"



Let's assume that it would have been better. However legalized abortion where the mother gets the distinction of being the only one having the choice - which is what the pro-choice movement is clearly for - would not have kept this child from being born and becoming a 2-year old prostitute. You said yourself that the mother chose to have the baby, for this very reason. She could have had an abortion, but she chose not to. The pro-choice position would allow this mother to do exactly what she did. She could not be forced to have an abortion if she wanted the baby - and she wanted to have a baby.



A situation where this particular mother in this particular situation, would abort the pregnancy, so that it would not develop into a 2-year-old prostitute, would be called "forced abortion" not "pro-choice."



Good points, Soilman.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#261 Old 11-30-2006, 01:48 PM
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I think enlightening you would be a pretty daunting task.

Personal attack under the guise of humor.
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#262 Old 11-30-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sevenseas

He's saying that everyone who doesn't want various criminals killed like he does is a liar.

GAYA Wrote:

I don't understand how some people expect every body else to think as they do.



Joe, don't you realize that we all have different life experiences, that we are different individuals with different values and opinions?



eta: or maybe you just have such a hard time communicating that you aren't getting your point across. If that's the case then I don't know what to tell you other than beefing up your reading list.



The other post which was close, did not let me respond to inaccurate criticism, which was unfare.

The point I was trying to make was that for anyone to sit there and say that in there entire life they had never wished harm on anyone or thing. Either has selective memory or is just lying. Let ask your mother, and to boot you sit on your pedistal making accusation about me that you have no evidence to substantiate.
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#263 Old 11-30-2006, 06:31 PM
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This thread has run its course and is closed.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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