Veg*nism and abortion - Page 8 - VeggieBoards
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#211 Old 11-29-2006, 05:26 PM
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"I don't think plants want sunlight or water, they just grow as a result of them."



They also sense them, and grow in response to them, for example turn their leaves both due to growth movements and turgor movements, toward the sun; extend their roots toward a source of water.
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#212 Old 11-29-2006, 05:55 PM
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I think a fetus at its earliest stages of development is a living being but does not want food or life. That's because I don't think non-sentient beings want anything.



When the fetus does become sentient at some point, he/she does have desires, and of course then the abortion issue becomes a (much more) serious moral question.



And when, exactly, does this point happen? How do you know when they become a sentient being?



Detailed photo-full page detailing the development of a baby in the womb. It is a pregnancy website, so there are no graphic abortion photos. Just lots of info about the growing baby. This covers the first trimester alone. Baby's heart is beating at 5 weeks, just days after your pregnancy test turns positive.



1st Trimester:

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/f...velopment1.php



2nd Trimester:

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/f...velopment2.php



3rd Trimester:

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/f...velopment3.php



SO, when, exactly is this baby not a person? If we are arguing human resemblance, it only is in the very early weeks, before you even KNOW you are pregnant, when baby appears in those early forms.
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#213 Old 11-29-2006, 06:08 PM
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Men don't get pregnant.



so then they should shut up about it and let the women decide if they want to be pregnant and have children.
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#214 Old 11-29-2006, 06:14 PM
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so then they should shut up about it and let the women decide if they want to be pregnant and have children.

I agree with you 100%

They should decide before conception whether they want to be pregnant or not and save us all the killing.
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#215 Old 11-29-2006, 06:16 PM
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I agree with you 100%

They should decide before conception whether they want to be pregnant or not and save us all the killing.



the men could keep it in their pants and save us all the killing as well.
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#216 Old 11-29-2006, 06:20 PM
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the men could keep it in their pants and save us all the killing as well.

I said nothing of abstinence. That a liitle far out of the realm.
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#217 Old 11-29-2006, 06:21 PM
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I'm waiting for VJ to incorporate a homophobic comment at some point.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#218 Old 11-29-2006, 06:23 PM
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I said nothing of abstinence. That a liitle far out of the realm.



Sorry your image of humans is so low to think we are incapable of choosing not to have sex if we want to be really sure we won't procreate. (Some of us, anyway, are capable of that. I don't know about you.)

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#219 Old 11-29-2006, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bekajoi View Post

And when, exactly, does this point happen? How do you know when they become a sentient being?

Well sentience may be a somewhat wider notion than the ability to feel pain, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia View Post

Evidence conflicts, with some authorities holding that the fetus is capable of feeling pain from the first trimester,[35] and others maintaining that the neuro-anatomical requirements for such experience do not exist until the second or third trimester.[36]



Pain receptors begin to appear in the seventh week of gestation. The thalamus, the part of the brain which receives signals from the nervous system and then relays them to the cerebral cortex, starts to form in the fifth week. However, other anatomical structures involved in the nociceptic process are not present until much later in gestation. Links between the thalamus and cerebral cortex form around the 23rd week.


"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#220 Old 11-29-2006, 06:27 PM
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Sorry your image of humans is so low to think we are incapable of choosing not to have sex if we want to be really sure we won't procreate. (Some of us, anyway, are capable of that. I don't know about you.)

Uh hello... What is the abortion rate this year?

Who is "we"?
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#221 Old 11-29-2006, 06:30 PM
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I'm waiting for VJ to incorporate a homophobic comment at some point.

"a non-existent being" That is such a laugh!
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#222 Old 11-29-2006, 06:32 PM
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Uh hello... What is the abortion rate this year?

Who is "we"?



"We" is humans. Some humans are capable of refraining from sex if we want to use abstinence as our contraception. To say people/males/whoever are incapable of refusing sex is silly. Many do choose to have sex, but it doesn't mean it was their only option.



People are more than their sex drives. I'm optimistic that men are, too.

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#223 Old 11-29-2006, 06:40 PM
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I was going to say that you (VJ) sound sexist (because of your comments about women), but your comments about men are also so demeaning that I don't really know. (No wait, that just makes you all the more sexist.)

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#224 Old 11-29-2006, 06:43 PM
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I don't really know.

Well said!
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#225 Old 11-29-2006, 06:46 PM
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"We" is humans.

I know all the abortions are the product of men who say no and women who take responsibilty.
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#226 Old 11-29-2006, 06:51 PM
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I know all the abortions are the product of men who say no and women who take responsibilty.

Would you mind explaining further?
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#227 Old 11-29-2006, 06:53 PM
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Would you mind explaining further?

I don't possess that much gray matter.
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#228 Old 11-29-2006, 06:53 PM
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#229 Old 11-29-2006, 06:58 PM
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I don't possess that much gray matter.

I know or at least understand as much. Perhaps you could understand your own position better if you took the time to think it through, typed slowly, what ever you need.
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#230 Old 11-29-2006, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Well sentience may be a somewhat wider notion than the ability to feel pain, but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Evidence conflicts, with some authorities holding that the fetus is capable of feeling pain from the first trimester,[35] and others maintaining that the neuro-anatomical requirements for such experience do not exist until the second or third trimester.[36]



Pain receptors begin to appear in the seventh week of gestation. The thalamus, the part of the brain which receives signals from the nervous system and then relays them to the cerebral cortex, starts to form in the fifth week. However, other anatomical structures involved in the nociceptic process are not present until much later in gestation. Links between the thalamus and cerebral cortex form around the 23rd week.



So... lets see, the fetus is incapable of feeling pain in the first trimester, but the pain receptors start to form in the 7th week?



Slightly contradictory if you ask me. That reads, to ME, that the baby can feel by the 7th week, in pain's most rudamentory form, at least. Pain, for example. Pain, comfort. Those 2 would be apparent to the fetus by this point.



So based on what I've read from you (and others) so far is that after baby can feel pain, abortion would be wrong? So abortion after the 7th week would not be OK in your book?
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#231 Old 11-29-2006, 07:04 PM
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I know or at least understand as much. Perhaps you could understand your own position better if you took the time to think it through, typed slowly, what ever you need.

...
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#232 Old 11-29-2006, 07:05 PM
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Oh, and found a good link for those interested in abortion statistics in the US. 24% of all pregnancies (excluding those that end in natural miscarraige) end in abortion.



There is a chart down the page that shows details with # in weeks the mother was when baby was aborted.



ETA link: (der)



http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
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#233 Old 11-29-2006, 07:07 PM
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...

you and 295,734,134 other americans...give or take a few thousand
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#234 Old 11-29-2006, 07:11 PM
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you and 295,734,134 other americans...give or take a few thousand

Planet check
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#235 Old 11-29-2006, 07:13 PM
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Planet check

Nope, just the US
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#236 Old 11-29-2006, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bekajoi View Post

So... lets see, the fetus is incapable of feeling pain in the first trimester, but the pain receptors start to form in the 7th week?



Slightly contradictory if you ask me. That reads, to ME, that the baby can feel by the 7th week, in pain's most rudamentory form, at least. Pain, for example. Pain, comfort. Those 2 would be apparent to the fetus by this point.



So based on what I've read from you (and others) so far is that after baby can feel pain, abortion would be wrong? So abortion after the 7th week would not be OK in your book?

I don't really know **** from neurobiology but it seems to me that some would argue that since the pain signals are not relayed to the cortex until the 23rd week (because earlier than that there are no links between the thalamus and the cortex?) this is when pain is first being experienced.



I don't think that abortion would be wrong when the fetus is sentient, although one could call me a "fence-sitter" about this issue. That is, I don't feel any personal interest drawing me to either side (aside from the general fact that pro-lifers are seen as conservative/dogmatic or backwards, which is certainly a problem), but I've found a pro-abortion argument from self-defence to be convincing enough (the woman is protecting herself against the pain, stress etc. of carrying and finally giving birth to a child).

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#237 Old 11-29-2006, 07:14 PM
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Nope, just the US

I mean you
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#238 Old 11-29-2006, 07:15 PM
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I mean you

Do you think my numbers are off? I did say give or take a few thousand.
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#239 Old 11-29-2006, 10:02 PM
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I know or at least understand as much. Perhaps you could understand your own position better if you took the time to think it through, typed slowly, what ever you need.

Condesending attitude. along with delusions of grandeur
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#240 Old 11-29-2006, 10:13 PM
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Condesending attitude. along with delusions of grandeur

you like to give it but you don't like to take it. too bad.
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