Veg*nism and abortion - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 06-18-2006, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by drveggielvr View Post

No one forced them to get pregnant... they chose that themselves by having sex and rolling the dice. We are just asking them to be responsible for their actions.



You are not asking them. You are telling them. There is a big difference.



I will just say this, the day that it is decided that being vegan means forcing women to carry a fetus to term is the day that I will no longer consider myself a vegan. I will still avoid eating/buying/wearing animal products.
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#62 Old 06-18-2006, 10:40 PM
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Someone Did Force [email protected]!!!!!!! His name was JOHN RAPIST..



and that's a whole other realm of the argument, which I never entered into. I thought that thus far we were talking about a woman choosing to terminate an unwated pregnancy that she and her partner caused.
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#63 Old 06-18-2006, 10:46 PM
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Which brings me to my next experiment:



Get monkeys, put them to sleep with a little gas, perform all sorts of experiments on them before they wake up, then just kill them after you are done... it's the same thing.

Monkeys are sentient beings and have an interest in living, which you would be violating by doing so. And putting a sentient being to sleep without good reason wouldn't be justified.



Quote:
Both the Fetus and monkey:

-had potential for life (or further life)

-felt no pain

-weren't aware of their circumstances

-are now dead by someone else who believes they own the power to say where life begins and ends.

You are making no sense. When I rip a plant from the ground and eat it:

-the plant had both actual life and potential for further life

-felt no pain

-wasn't aware of its circumstances

-is now dead by someone else who believes they own the power to say what counts as life



So by your argument everyone should be fruitarian?

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#64 Old 06-18-2006, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by drveggielvr View Post

and that's a whole other realm of the argument, which I never entered into. I thought that thus far we were talking about a woman choosing to terminate an unwated pregnancy that she and her partner caused.



No, the OP did not say that the topic was that specific. Rape does happen, like it or not, and unwanted pregnancies do occur from it. It's way, way too simple just to make a blanket statement "no one forced any female to get pregnant".

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#65 Old 06-19-2006, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by drveggielvr View Post

No one forced them to get pregnant... they chose that themselves by having sex and rolling the dice. We are just asking them to be responsible for their actions.





I still don't get that logic. So because more animals are killed, it's ok to kill fetuses simply because no one wants them? It's ok because the don't feel pain, and because they aren't satient?



Which brings me to my next experiment:



Get monkeys, put them to sleep with a little gas, perform all sorts of experiments on them before they wake up, then just kill them after you are done... it's the same thing.



Both the Fetus and monkey:

-had potential for life (or further life)

-felt no pain

-weren't aware of their circumstances

-are now dead by someone else who believes they own the power to say where life begins and ends.



Are you just playing devils advocate?

Your logic is one must be consistent so if one is vegan then they should be pro-life and believe abortion is wrong. If it's wrong to kill an animal for food, it's wrong to have an abortion.

You eat meat so, therefore, you should be pro-choice right? If it's ok to ruthlessly slaughter a cow for your steak then it should be fine to have an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy no?

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#66 Old 06-19-2006, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

No, the OP did not say that the topic was that specific. Rape does happen, like it or not, and unwanted pregnancies do occur from it. It's way, way too simple just to make a blanket statement "no one forced any female to get pregnant".



Thank you Kiz...



{12.1 million women have been raped in the US alone. 4.7 million of those were raped more than one time. 302,100 women are forcibly raped each year. -- National Center for Victims of Crimes.}



Vegmedic the more I read your posts the more I consider braving that Cold, Cold Canadian air.
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#67 Old 06-19-2006, 07:27 AM
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I completely agree with Savanah's assessement of this issue:



1. it is apparently your BELIEF that sentient life begins at conception. however, billions of people on the planet follow religious and philosophical traditions that do not believe that to be the case. there is real controversy over when life begins.



2. I am unwilling to impose one view of sentient life onto the rest of the population that disagrees. therefore, the only thing that makes sense is the right to choose, in my opinion.



3. being vegetarian and supporting the right of choice are not contradictory because I believe your characterization of abortion being the slaughter of children to be unsupportable.



4. however, I would think that being vegetarian and being pro-capital punishment would be contradictory. one is arguably the termination of potential life while the other is the termination of actual life.



These statements really outline the whole problem. To me, it is just as logical to say "life and sentience begins at birth" as it is to say "life and sentience begins at conception. In the first instance, though, abortion is not killing and it is not harming the fetus because it is neither alive nor sentient. In the second instance, abortion is killing and is harming the fetus because it is alive and sentient.



A vegetarian who believes that life and sentience begins at birth could have abortions and support abortions for others without impacting the 'killing' and 'harm' connections with vegetarianism because nothing was killed or harmed. A vegetarian who believes that life and sentience begins at conception should not have abortions (unless necessary) nor would that vegetarian support abortions for others because of their beliefs about the morality of killing and harming living beings.



A vegetarian who believes that it is impossible to determine when life begins--even though s/he may have his/her own opinion on the matter--would support choice because this allows individuals to determine for themselves when life begins and then align their values and behavoirs accordingly.
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#68 Old 06-19-2006, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by drveggielvr

No one forced them to get pregnant... they chose that themselves by having sex and rolling the dice. We are just asking them to be responsible for their actions.



first, if these individuals do not agree that life and sentience begins at some point in the womb (from the time between conception and birth), then having an abortion has no moral impact on them. Therefore, an abortion can be a responsible action for individuals who do not want to continue in pregnancy.



second, just because people are having sex doesn't necessarily mean that they were 'rolling the dice.' many people strive to avoid pregnancy for a variety of reasons and using a variety of methods. this language downplays or disregards that people are generally already 'behaving responsibly' regarding their sex lives, and that an abortion can actually be an aspect of 'behaving responsibility' for many individuals.



third, as someone else said, you're not asking them to take responsibility, you're telling them to. But you're also suggesting that your definitions of when life begins, when sentience begins, and your definitions of sexual responsibility are the only ones that exist or hold value. These ideas are also 'unsupportable' absolutely. There can be a number of definitions for these concepts that would lead to abortion being an appropriate, responsible choice for some or many individuals.
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#69 Old 06-19-2006, 10:07 AM
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*Adults eating meat because they like the taste when there are perfectly good alternatives v a teenage girl having an abortion because it will ruin her life, end her dreams of an education and subject her and her unwanted child to a life of poverty.



Having a baby when you're a teenager does not ruin your life. It makes your life a little harder but it doesn't ruin it. I had a baby when I was 16 and went on to graduate high school on time with honors and then get a bachelor's degree in Mathematics. I'm now a software engineer making more than double what my husband makes. I don't think my life was ruined at all. I had to work a lot harder than other people but that's just life. Teenage moms need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and go to school.
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#70 Old 06-19-2006, 10:46 AM
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purpelle



"i'd save my cat before someone else's baby."



That is fine. However I can't imagine anyone who hears you say that, whether they have a baby or not, viewing you as a mature, responsible, competant adult. I can only imagine them viewing you as someone whose lifestyle, whether your love for cats includes not eating them or other animals, is not one that should be emulated.



I am not saying you are not a vegan or not a vegetarianism. I am only saying that I can't imagine most people thinking you are a mature person with wisdom, whose opinions are valuable. And I think that if vegetarianss ARE perceived as sensible people whose opinions are valuable, more people will go veg. I realize you can't change your feelings. I feel that is an unfortunate situation tho.



Personally, I would not want you around my children. Your comment is so outrageous, that I would put you in the class of people that I don't want around my children. They would be no safer with you than with a sexual predator. Fires do happen. I don't believe I am special or have special worth or that my children do. If you say you would save your cat before you would save a random human child -- that would mean to me that if I left my child in your care, it would be very risky. If you were to say, well, I'd save soilman's child before a cat, but not someone else's child -- again, I don't want to feel like I have special priveleges.
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#71 Old 06-19-2006, 11:04 AM
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I support a woman's right choose. If I am to go against my beliefs to follow your ideology, then not only would I hope that non-vegans would not join me, but at the same time I would be disgusted at myself.



I also am for a woman's right to choose. It is her body, her decision. However I hope she would not make a heartless, callous choice of killing a fetus, because a fetus, at about 2 weeks of development, appears to be a sentient mammal. Because it is not really possible to tell if a fetus is less than 2 weeks developed, I am against abortion, although I am not sure about "morning after" pills. I would not be so disturbed by this as I am at killing a 4-week old fetus. I would be disgusted at myself if I were not willing to speak out agains abortion on demand. But again, speaking out against it is not the same thing as making it illegal. I believe the most effective way of preventing abortions is simply to educate people re fetal development.



Quote:
I became a vegan because I realized that was the way I should live. I didn't do it to become a role model, I didn't do it to impress other people,

Originally, that is what happened to me, also. But laer I realized that the world would be a little bit better if a few more people went veg and that taking opportunities to warm people up to the idea would be a good idea. It is not a matter of competion, like a church converting-the-native project. But I do think I should try and set an example for others. I am not trying to convert the whole world. Just a few people -- without pressure. I want them to see it in their own hearts, not do it because I give them a job or whatever.



That is why I have my web site, for example.



The same thing about fetacide. I am not trying to have the laws changed. I just want people, before they decide to have an aboriton, to look at how a fetus develop, and see if they have it in their hearts to kill a 4 week old fetus.
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#72 Old 06-19-2006, 11:32 AM
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And I think that if vegetarianss ARE perceived as sensible people whose opinions are valuable, more people will go veg.

And here are examples of what the opinions of sensible people would be:

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...3&postcount=13

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...0&postcount=17

"and I stand

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made of weak and useless men"

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#73 Old 06-19-2006, 11:55 AM
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Moi: "Well, now you do. I am against lions killing anteloupe. And I have made numerous posts against domestic cats killing birds and small mammals.



If we really cared about animals, we'd try to save the lives of prey animals, by hunting down and killing predators such as wolves, felines, foxes, etcetera. No, we can't kill human predators. But we can set an example of living without killing animals for food clothing and shelter, and show them how much fun we are having doing that."



sevenseas, I was kidding about that.



Moi: "I think perhaps you should kill the cat, so that it cannot harm any more rabbits. This seems to me to be the best compromise in this situation, given that there is no ideal answer; no matter what you do, animals are going to suffer.



Cats are in no danger of extinction. While rabbits are not endgangered either, their numbers are reduced. Cats, on the other hand exist way in excess to the numbers that the environment would naturally support. This is because humans support and help cats, and do little to support and help rabbits. Your cat may have already killed many rabbits, many rabbits that you do not know about, and may kill many more, without your knowing about it."



I think a better solution than killing feral cats or cats that people own, would be to limit the ownership of cats, per house, and to have programs that prevent abandoment of cats and growth of feral cat colonies. I was just making a comparision. I was not saying it was [i]good[/b] to kill cats, but that perhaps it might be better than allowing them to kill rabbits. I am not FOR killing domestic cats. I am against damaging the ecology, the environment, of suburban areas by having too many domestic cats in suburban areas.



Perhaps I should rephrase that as: which is worse, killing rabbits or killing cats? Killing rabbits is worse. When wild cats kill rabbits, the situation is perhaps best left un-meddled with, but when domestic cats are killing rabbits, and feral cats are killing rabbits -- that really means PEOPLE are killing rabbits. It is the people who own the cats, or owned a cat and abandoned it, that are responsible, not the cat. Better if they didn't own cats. Or if they did, at least establish laws to limit the number per house in suburban areas. But if it came down to the situation was out of control, and rabbits were in danger of extinction, yes, killing cats may be preferable to allowing colonies of feral cats and excessive numbers of houshold cats, to drive the rabbit population into extinction. It is matter of which one people kill. You have to kill one or the other. And remember, I said "perhaps." I didn't say let's go out and start killing cats tomorrow morning. This was a rhetorical device to get people to think, not an exortation to get round up a cat vigilante squad.
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#74 Old 06-21-2006, 09:45 AM
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I believe that abortion is the mothers decision. If you have a dog, and you know that for some reason you have to give it away, and that no one will want it for whatever reason, then you put it to sleep. That happens all the time. If you're pregnant, and you know you can't take care of the baby, then abortion is the right thing.
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#75 Old 06-21-2006, 02:50 PM
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I believe that abortion is the mothers decision. If you have a dog, and you know that for some reason you have to give it away, and that no one will want it for whatever reason, then you put it to sleep. That happens all the time. If you're pregnant, and you know you can't take care of the baby, then abortion is the right thing.

So by this logic, if at some point in the future I lose my job and can no longer support my children, is it all right to euthanize them? If not, then where do you draw the line?

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#76 Old 06-22-2006, 12:31 PM
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So by this logic, if at some point in the future I lose my job and can no longer support my children, is it all right to euthanize them? If not, then where do you draw the line?

~Wonder



I don't know about her logic, but the difference between euthanizing a dog - or a human being - and in having an abortion, is huge. One is murder. The other is not allowing a life to begin. I draw the line at an abortion because (in early stages ONLY), it is no different than masterbating or than using birth control. If you think that aborting a creature before it can begin life is "murder," then do like the strict catholics: don't masterbate, don't use birth control, take advantage of as many of your eggs/sperm as you can and have as many children as you can so as not to waste those precious possible-lives.



I don't think it is anywhere near anti-vegan to agree with abortion. I think agreeing with abortion can be a compassionate stance, just as being vegan can.
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#77 Old 06-22-2006, 07:31 PM
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I don't know about her logic, but the difference between euthanizing a dog - or a human being - and in having an abortion, is huge. One is murder. The other is not allowing a life to begin. I draw the line at an abortion because (in early stages ONLY), it is no different than masterbating or than using birth control.

Where do you draw the line between a clump of cells and a life? And how did you come to that conclusion? I really would like to understand you POV.



I would think that no one would deny that a fertilized egg is alive. Most people consider bacteria to be alive and they are single celled organisms. So maybe you determine "life" to begin with sentience and/or the ability to feel pain. Well, I'd say you have to be sentient in order to feel pain. Within the first month after conception, the brain and nervous system has already begun to develop. Here's a Power Point presentation on the nervous system development of the human embryo: http://astro.temple.edu/~pak/development.ppt and here's a power point viewer if you don't have one. I would say there is a very short period of time where it is 100% safe to say the embryo is not capable of feeling pain. And most abortions happen after this time.

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#78 Old 06-22-2006, 08:14 PM
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I'm hoping science will hurry up and define this point for me I don't know that I'd personally draw the line at sentient... but maybe rather at the point where the creature has enough physical/mental characteristics to be considered a living, developing human being. But if science were to draw the line at sentient, I'd never object to a law that doesn't allow women to get an abortion after the first month. Abortions should be last resort steps, to be taken in extreme situations (in my opinion), not as a backup form of birth control... so I wouldn't have a problem with any law that states an abortion should be done within that first month... if that's what you're suggesting?
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#79 Old 06-22-2006, 08:41 PM
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" take advantage of as many of your eggs/sperm as you can and have as many children as you can so as not to waste those precious possible-lives."



Actually, there may be some way, that gets discovered, to keep sperm "alive in a petri dish" and feed them until they get 4 or 5 inches long -- until they can live on their own in a lake or bay. Or maybe they could be coaxed into become a multicellular haploid organism. I'm not sure about any animals - but many plants DO indeed have a free-living haploid form. It is just a matter of time before science figures out how to keep sperm alive for years and years - so it would be wrong not to try to keep them alive until that day arrives.



The thing to do, is every time you ejaculate, rush your sperm to the nearest emergency room and demand that they try and keep them alive.
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#80 Old 06-22-2006, 09:31 PM
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Well, personally I believe life begins at conception and don't agree with abortion so I would like to see abortion abolished. But I would more than welcome a law outlawing abortions after the first month. However, I don't see this happening anytime soon. I think people fall into the "out of sight out of mind" mentality. If they could actually see their developing embryo, I think they'd be much less likely to go through with an abortion, especially if they knew how far developed the embryo is.

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#81 Old 06-22-2006, 09:39 PM
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Um.



They show you an ultrasound (usually) before you get an abortion, so you DO see the embryo. And they counsel you on the stages of life and all that stuff.



The embryo is small and lumpy. It doesn't look like a baby.
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#82 Old 06-22-2006, 09:51 PM
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Every Sperm is Sacred





From: The Meaning Of Life

by the Monty Python Team





There are Jews in the world.

There are Buddhists.

There are Hindus and Mormons, and then

There are those that follow Mohammed, but

I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,

And have been since before I was born,

And the one thing they say about Catholics is:

They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.

You don't have to have a great brain.

You don't have to have any clothes on. You're

A Catholic the moment Dad came,



Because



Every sperm is sacred.

Every sperm is great.

If a sperm is wasted,

God gets quite irate.



Every sperm is sacred.

Every sperm is great.

If a sperm is wasted,

God gets quite irate.



Let the heathen spill theirs

On the dusty ground.

God shall make them pay for

Each sperm that can't be found.



Every sperm is wanted.

Every sperm is good.

Every sperm is needed

In your neighbourhood.



Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,

Spill theirs just anywhere,

But God loves those who treat their

Semen with more care.



Every sperm is sacred.

Every sperm is great.

If a sperm is wasted,

God gets quite irate.



Every sperm is sacred.

Every sperm is good.

Every sperm is needed

In your neighbourhood!



Every sperm is useful.

Every sperm is fine.

God needs everybody's.

Mine! And mine! And mine!



Let the Pagan spill theirs

O'er mountain, hill, and plain.

God shall strike them down for

Each sperm that's spilt in vain.



Every sperm is sacred.

Every sperm is good.

Every sperm is needed

In your neighbourhood.



Every sperm is sacred.

Every sperm is great.

If a sperm is wasted,

God gets quite iraaaaate!
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#83 Old 06-22-2006, 09:56 PM
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An ultrasound doesn't exactly give a very good picture, everything looks small and lumpy.
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#84 Old 06-22-2006, 10:46 PM
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http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...week/03_08.jpg





LOlz cuz teh smalz baybees is teh smalz two so dey iz teh oh key fur deh sqwischin. if ets teh smalz wi cun scwich, luk huw smalz dat is lololz



skqwish dem ull!!!!!!!
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#85 Old 06-22-2006, 10:57 PM
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The thing to do, is every time you ejaculate, rush your sperm to the nearest emergency room and demand that they try and keep them alive.



Cool beans.
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#86 Old 06-22-2006, 11:35 PM
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" take advantage of as many of your eggs/sperm as you can and have as many children as you can so as not to waste those precious possible-lives."



Actually, there may be some way, that gets discovered, to keep sperm "alive in a petri dish" and feed them until they get 4 or 5 inches long -- until they can live on their own in a lake or bay. Or maybe they could be coaxed into become a multicellular haploid organism. I'm not sure about any animals - but many plants DO indeed have a free-living haploid form. It is just a matter of time before science figures out how to keep sperm alive for years and years - so it would be wrong not to try to keep them alive until that day arrives.



The thing to do, is every time you ejaculate, rush your sperm to the nearest emergency room and demand that they try and keep them alive.



I'm not sure if this is supposed to be an attempt to make fun of me or not..? But if it is --- I gave that as an example of why it's silly to call abortion "murder." I don't agree with that statement, or the others, by any means because I do not consider abortion to be murder.
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#87 Old 06-23-2006, 03:31 AM
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I don't mind killing plants even though they're technically alive. There must be a point at which foetuses achieve consciousness, and while I don't think this point has been determined yet, I think that before that point it's the same as killing a plant. Maybe one day that point will be determined and all abortions will take place before then.
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#88 Old 06-23-2006, 04:16 AM
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An ultrasound doesn't exactly give a very good picture, everything looks small and lumpy.



Not true. At a certain point, I'd have to double check my ultrasound pictures, it starts to look like a baby. I think it's around 5 or so months? Before that, no matter how many people try to draw it to look differently it looks sort of like a lump with a head.

You might want to believe that a 2 month fetus looks exactly like a baby but it doesn't. It has a head but the rest of it looks lumpy and weird.

Mary
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#89 Old 06-23-2006, 04:32 AM
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OregonAmy "They show you an ultrasound (usually) before you get an abortion, so you DO see the embryo. And they counsel you on the stages of life and all that stuff.



The embryo is small and lumpy. It doesn't look like a baby."



It should be obvious that the embryo looks small and lumpy on an ultrasound, because you are not looking at the embryo, you are looking at the picture created by the imaging device, which does not produce very find detail, and can be adjusted to produce even less detail, or could be out of adjustment. On an ultrasound, even a full term fetus doesn't look much like a baby. The fact is, embryos start to look more like human beings than anything else, about 6 weeks after conception, even tho they are only 1.5 cm long (a little more than 1/2 an inch). We know this because they have been seen when they have been removed in the process of surgical treatment of ectopic pregnancies and in surgeries to remove cancerous uteri. http://www.visembryo.com/baby/stage19.html



Before 6 weeks, the embryo looks very much like they embryo of any other mammal at the same stage of develpment. After 6 weeks, it is distinctly human.
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#90 Old 06-23-2006, 04:49 AM
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We know this because they have been seen when they have been removed in the process of surgical treatment of ectopic pregnancies and in surgeries to remove cancerous uteri. http://www.visembryo.com/baby/stage19.html



Before 6 weeks, the embryo looks very much like they embryo of any other mammal at the same stage of develpment. After 6 weeks, it is distinctly human.



The picture you shows doesn't look like a baby to me.

Maybe this one

http://www.visembryo.com/baby/stage23.html which is closer to the end of the first trimester.

Honestly, though, even newborns look a little alien-ish. To be fair.

Mary
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