Veg*nism and abortion - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 06-18-2006, 04:20 AM
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Heres my stance and view, posted from a different thread, I realise its not going to be a popular view on mostly liberal boards...or conservative boards for that matter lol..... but yeah:





If one extends compassion of life to the rest of the animal kingdom, why then, can't they extend that compassion to their own species?



My views are consistant for every argument posed. All life should be respected. From dogs, to cows, to bees, to baby humans.



People look at the majority of christians, who while preaching about loving your neighbor and the "weakest among you", will support war and the death penalty, they will support the slaughter of innocent creatures for food, and the slaughter of innocent people in war.



People look at the majority of vegans, who preach about all animals have a right to life. That cows,pigs,chickens, and the rest shouldn't be slaughtered for food, but then turn around and support the genocide of infant humans claiming a womans right to her body. A woman owns the child in her and can do with it what she chooses. Much like a farmer owns his cattle?



Where is the consistancy?



All beings have a right to live.







I appreciate your view. This is the stance I expect vegans to take. (Although I appreciate we all have differences and it's not fair to generalize an ethical vegan this way.) I've never understood a vegan who wouldn't swat a fly yet agrees with abortion. I don't understand the rationalization. That's me and my opinion. I don't care if I get flamed or not (I do appreciate how civil this discussion has been, however.)





I'm an extreme Bush-hating liberal, and used to approve of abortion, until I began to study anatomy and physiology deeper in nursing school many years ago and I changed my mind. To me it isn't an religious/moral issue, it's a matter of respecting a living human life.
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#32 Old 06-18-2006, 04:32 AM
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To me it isn't an religious/moral issue, it's a matter of respecting a living human life.

If life is all it comes down to, then I think it would be more inconsistent to be a pro-life vegan than a pro-choice vegan because vegans eat plants which have life. If life & "human" is all it comes down to, it would still be inconsistent at least for me since plants have life and since my ethical view is strongly based on the view that 'human' is not inherently relevant, unlike sentience, personhood etc.

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#33 Old 06-18-2006, 07:57 AM
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" And before anyone says that a sperm cannot develop into a human by itself, neither can a fetus, it needs a woman body to make that happen."



Many fetuses are killed when they are quite capable of surviving outside the uterus -- which with current technology is 5 months, sometimes 4.5 months.



It seems very likely that technology will be improved so that embryos can develop entirely ex-utero. In fact, we have already done conception ex-utero, and kept embyros conceived that way, alive, for several weeks. The only reason attempts were not made to keep them alive longer, is that biologists had ethical compunctions about doing it, and developing the technology to do it. Then it is just a matter extending the life of extra-uterine embryos from 3 weeks to 5 months. Such extra-utrerine embryos have been implanted in human females, and they then survived there and were eventually born. It is also conceivable that such embryos could be implanted in other animals, such as pigs, or primates, or elephants, who could then be given anti-rejection drugs, that would enable them to carry human embryos long enough for them to be born or removed surgically, and survive. What keeps these things from being developed in biolgists ethical concerns about doing it, not shortcomings in technology. For example if you were to give a non-human animal anti-rejection drug, to prevent its immune sysem from killing an implanted human fetus, you risk causing birth defects, perhaps severe birth defects, in the fetus.
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#34 Old 06-18-2006, 08:05 AM
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I agree with traub. It makes vegans look hypocritical in the eyes of non-vegans, whenever they complain about how sad it is that puppy dogs are euthanized in animal shelters, but support fetuscide. another hypocracy that makes vegans look bad in the eyes of non-vegans, is the way most vegans care more about animal than they care about adult humans. I must say I have personally been treated shamefully by many vegans, when I told them about how difficult my life was. I wouldn't be vegan if I needed to see exemplary humans whose lives I could imitate. My veganism comes mostly from my own personal dialog with God, and not from emulating other vegans who set an example for me to copy.



That is one reason I try to live differently than most vegans, and be outspoken about it -- so that non-vegans have a better example to follow. There is a shortage of good examples.



Just look at the "famous vegans" for example. The flakey actors and actresses who say "ima vegan" while they eat meat. The people like Russel Simmons who proclaim veganhood -- yet he has many real leather items in his Phat Farm clothing line.
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#35 Old 06-18-2006, 11:09 AM
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Here are some of my views on abortion and veganism:



*There is probably about 1000 animals killed by humans for every fetus killed. Until the time when those numbers start to converge then my priority will be the senseless murdering of animals.

*There are too many humans in the world. That leaves me caring a lot about the animals on the verge of extinction and very little about the "necessity" of bringing another unwanted human into this world.

*I would rather see a vegan who has abortions, than a meat-eater who won't have an abortion. The death toll is much higher in the latter case.

*Adults eating meat because they like the taste when there are perfectly good alternatives v a teenage girl having an abortion because it will ruin her life, end her dreams of an education and subject her and her unwanted child to a life of poverty.

*Similarly: I oppose eating humans, but I think it was justified in the case of the plane crash in the Andes in the 70s, where they spent 72 days surviving in brutal conditions through eating the dead. I also think that eating animals can be justified in certain very rare conditions. But when I walk into a grocery store and see the abundance of alternatives to eating animal products then the eating of animal products is not justified.

*I think that making the murder of animals illegal would be pointless, people would ignore the laws, juries would refuse to convict. The same goes for abortion, in Canada starting in 1970 the legal system realized that juries would no longer convict doctors who performed abortion, the law was useless and abortions were performed, and abortion clinics opened as if they were legal long before abortion became officially legal (1988). I would rather people stopped eatting meat because they realized that eatting meat is immoral, not because of a law.

*When I think of a world without the raising and consuming of animals for food, I see a world where the environment is cleaner, the people are healthier, less farm land is needed so nature has been allowed to reclaim large areas, bringing more beauty into the world. Basically I see good things.

*When I picture a world without abortion I see a world with more families living in poverty, more environmental destruction etc. I realize that due to my biases I see one world as better and the other world as worse. I also realize that a decrease in abortion would be a positive thing if it was because people became more careful etc.

*(edit)But I think that my decision to refuse to eat/wear/buy animal products was a far easier decision with only positive consequences. It has improved my way of life in everyway. Telling someone that they must carry their fetus to term is entirely different, with the potential for many negative negative consequences.

*There have been people tell me that it is inconsistent for me to be a vegan and be pro-choice. I disagree. I have always hated the idea of rigid ideologies. I live my life in the way that I believe is moral. I choose not to support the animal agricultural industry. As a man I can not have an abortion anyways, but to me this is not simply about killing of one equals the killing the another. To me it is about the health of the planet and the health and strength of our communities. The raising and slaughtering animals for food destroys both as far as I am concerned. I can't say that the fact that people choose to have abortions is causing the same damage, in fact I feel that it is not causing any damage.



Gosh, you saved me a lot of time and energy by pretty much posting my views here!
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#36 Old 06-18-2006, 11:11 AM
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It makes vegans look hypocritical in the eyes of non-vegans,



.



I wasn't aware that the purpose of being vegan was to look good in they eyes of non-vegans.

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#37 Old 06-18-2006, 11:18 AM
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I agree with traub. It makes vegans look hypocritical in the eyes of non-vegans, whenever they complain about how sad it is that puppy dogs are euthanized in animal shelters, but support fetuscide. another hypocracy that makes vegans look bad in the eyes of non-vegans, is the way most vegans care more about animal than they care about adult humans. I must say I have personally been treated shamefully by many vegans, when I told them about how difficult my life was. I wouldn't be vegan if I needed to see exemplary humans whose lives I could imitate. My veganism comes mostly from my own personal dialog with God, and not from emulating other vegans who set an example for me to copy.



That is one reason I try to live differently than most vegans, and be outspoken about it -- so that non-vegans have a better example to follow. There is a shortage of good examples.

Unless I've misinterpreted you, I think you've talked about how cats etc. aren't vegan and talked about killing them. If that is so, then I think you would not be the first person who should talk about vegans looking bad in the eyes of non-vegans.

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#38 Old 06-18-2006, 12:28 PM
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c)Abortion is ok because otherwise these kids would live horrible lives.

My mother was almost aborted by my grandmother...she eventually gave birth, found someonese to give my mother to and here we are. I'm in school, doing a PhD...who knows, maybe I'll find something that dramatically improves our planet... but assuming that would have never given me that opportunity.



True, but someone else would have come along & taken it.
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#39 Old 06-18-2006, 12:37 PM
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I wasn't aware that the purpose of being vegan was to look good in they eyes of non-vegans.





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#40 Old 06-18-2006, 12:52 PM
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"I wasn't aware that the purpose of being vegan was to look good in they eyes of non-vegans."



The better we look in the eyes of non-vegans, the more people will feel comfortable about joining in with us, in not harming animals unnecessarily. This will result in less harm to animals. It is damn foolish to not care what other people think about vegans.
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#41 Old 06-18-2006, 01:03 PM
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"Unless I've misinterpreted you, I think you've talked about how cats etc. aren't vegan and talked about killing them. If that is so, then I think you would not be the first person who should talk about vegans looking bad in the eyes of non-vegans."



I assure you, that when I talk about trapping a cat whose owner lets it wander around, or a feral cat (and bringing it to the animal shelter where it will be euthanized), that is killing birds, rabbits, pet hamsters, and turtles, not to mention ruining vegetable gardens or causing gardeners to have to spend 1000's of dollars in fencing to keep out cats (and having much less of a problem with wild rabbits), people are not as disturbed by that, and made leery of vegans and veganism, as they are when some vegan talks about how if their next door neigbor's house caught on fire, with a cat and a baby in side, they couldn't say for sure which they would look for and bring out first, the cat or the baby.



Most people think the person who is concerned about unsupervised and feral cats is maybe not insanely attached to cats; they think the person who can't decide whether to look for the baby or the cat -- is insane. They are likely to feel that the former person is perhaps worth emulating; they are likely to think the latter person is seriously deranged. I am not saying the latter person is deranged. I am saying that that is exactly what the general public, however, is likely to think.
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#42 Old 06-18-2006, 01:11 PM
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The point I remember you making about cats was specifically that they're "not vegan", which makes people associate your viewpoint with veganism, which I find wrong and harmful.

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#43 Old 06-18-2006, 01:39 PM
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2)For those here for abortions. Some of your arguments are would then follow this logic:



a) Someone mentioned too many animals on the verge of extinction and over population in humans.

Then does this give me the right to kill and eat animals not on the verge of extinction? Then were does this leave Veal for example? hmm...there are lots of baby calves, and they wont be good milking cows or meaty bulls...so because they are unwanted perhaps they should go also? Let's make it a painless life just to even the par with fetuses.





If you are using veal as an example, then it has been covered elsewhere. The consumption of veal and beef is what is leading to the overpopulation of cows. Farmers are "producing" more because the demand is there. The only way to reduce the number of cows is to stop eating them. As for other animals that are overpopulated like say deer in my area, they are overpopulated because humans removed all of their predators (such as wolves) in order to increase the deer population so they could shoot more deer.





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b) Someone compared a fetus to a tapeworm as a parasite and lacking pain receptors.

If they are on the same par, then I'll add animals that are ok to kill because they lack pain receptors: all coral, bugs with exoskelons. let's also kill people in comas, since they wont feel anything and they are a burden to society. Lets take it another step..let's kill all those that lack the ability to percieve pain, like children with CIPA...afterall, they may be a burden too.



We do "kill" people in persistent vegetative states such as Terri Schiavo. If I was in a similar condition I would expect the people who love me to end my life. But that is kind of comparing apples to oranges as Terri Schiavo was in a hospital bed and not, to the best of my knowledge, in someone's uterus.



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c)Abortion is ok because otherwise these kids would live horrible lives.

My mother was almost aborted by my grandmother...she eventually gave birth, found someonese to give my mother to and here we are. I'm in school, doing a PhD...who knows, maybe I'll find something that dramatically improves our planet... but assuming that would have never given me that opportunity.



This is kind of a futile argument. It is possible that my grandmother could have decided to go swimming on a stormy day and she could have been hit by lightning and died. I would have never been born.

I read similar arguments all the time from economists blabbing that we need to increase the birthrate so there are more people to solve the worlds' problems. What? First of all more people will create more problems and second who says that sheer numbers is what leads to genius and problem solving ability? Would Newton have come up with the theory of gravity if the area he grew up was so overcrowded that they were no apple trees to sit under? I don't know.

On the one hand you could say that a young mother who aborts a fetus might be aborting a child who could change the world for the better. On the other hand you could take a young mother who decided to have the child. What would have happened if she didn't? Is it possible that she might have gone on to get an education and in doing so met someone she otherwise would not have met and together they will offspring that will solve all the world's problems! Pretty stupid argument eh? So is the other one.



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Animals now live a horrible life...let's kill them too and eat them...we don't want their lives to go in vain...let's use it to feed hungry "unwanted/lacking access to abortion" mothers and kids in Africa..



I don't think that wild animals live a horrible life. I think they live a natural life. As for farm animals I think that they do not live a great life and instead of using that as an excuse for eating them, we should be doing our best to make sure that animals are not born and raised in such a fashion.



As for the mothers in Africa. Why don't we bring them birth control and educate them and empower women there. That is the recipe to success.



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d)Its a way to control overpopulation

I say, let's control overpopulation by killing pedophiles, murderers and felons. Sure we'll make some mistakes here and there with innocent people, but then again, all fetuses have the possibility of being good, and these people have already been proven to be bad.



My fool proof way of dealing with pedophiles is for no one to have anymore children. If no one ever had another child then the pedophile problem would no longer exist in a dozen years. Lets be serious no one is saying that abortion is the ideal way to deal with human overpopulation. People are saying that human overpopulation is a problem and that forcing women to have unwanted children contributes to making that problem worse. Plus I suspect that most serious criminals have already had all of the children they are going to have by the time they are bring locked up for a long time so killing them will do little to control overpopulation.



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e)Its a burden for the mother.

She's a burden to the system too most likely. Let's just sterelize people on wellfare that are such a burden before they have abortions. Oh wait, they are societal parasites...like the tapeworm...and their future fetus....let's just kill them too before they too become a burden.



This seems a little harsh, and in my experience it is completely wrong. The people I know who have had abortions have avoided becoming "burdens to the system."
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#44 Old 06-18-2006, 01:49 PM
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I agree with traub. It makes vegans look hypocritical in the eyes of non-vegans, whenever they complain about how sad it is that puppy dogs are euthanized in animal shelters, but support fetuscide.



In the hundreds of conversations that I have had with others about the reasons why I am a vegan never once has abortion entered the conversation. Maybe the people who I talk to are a little different, but they seem to be interested in discussing the treatment of animals instead.



Am I alone here? Can others list the number of times that vegetarianism or veganism is discussed and then abortion is brought up? Other than on this board for me it is 0%.



So, I have fooled those unwitting people I have talked to. Hahaha, I am a hypocrit and they don't even know it.
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#45 Old 06-18-2006, 02:17 PM
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The better we look in the eyes of non-vegans, the more people will feel comfortable about joining in with us, in not harming animals unnecessarily. This will result in less harm to animals. It is damn foolish to not care what other people think about vegans.



I support a woman's right choose. If I am to go against my beliefs to follow your ideology, then not only would I hope that non-vegans would not join me, but at the same time I would be disgusted at myself.



I became a vegan because I realized that was the way I should live. I didn't do it to become a role model, I didn't do it to impress other people, I don't view it as a competition to see how many others I can sign up. If my way of living is the cause of other people to evaluate the way they live then great. But I am not going to show up at their house and say "So you have decided to become a veg*n this is the way you must live: pro-life - check, no bottled water -check and so on. It will be their journey, just like my journey is mine, they can decide what they feel is right. I am not going to tell someone that being a vegan means that they must be pro-life, or pro-choice, or must paint their walls blue, or must drive a hybrid car or walk. Screw that. Don't eat/buy/wear animals or animal products? Good enough for me. Next.
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#46 Old 06-18-2006, 03:01 PM
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as they are when some vegan talks about how if their next door neigbor's house caught on fire, with a cat and a baby in side, they couldn't say for sure which they would look for and bring out first, the cat or the baby.



This is the exact reason why my neighbours, who have both a baby and a cat, are happy that they have a vegan (me) living on one side of them and an omnivore (dave) living on the other side of them.



We even go through fire drills. Here is what happened the last time we had a drill. The parents ran outside with no concern for the safety of their baby or cat, as realistically happens in most house fires. Then Dave and I go dashing into the house. Dave stumbles upon the cat first. He scares it up into the attic, so it will be harder for me to get it outside. When I saw that I rushed up into the baby room, tossed the baby into a large trunk in the closet, locked it and then swallowed the key. Then I started for the attic assured that victory was mine. But, Dave hit me over the head with a lamp and tossed me down the stairs leaving with a broken leg. I crawled up the stairs again and saw that Dave was dragging the trunk out of the baby room. I started to strangle Dave and after I rendered him unconscious I broke all his fingers for good measure (figuring it would be impossible for him to drag the trunk outside with 10 broken fingers.) Then I crawled up into the attic and tried to convince the frightened cat to come out of the spot it was hiding in. This took a long time, but finally I coaxed it out only to find that somehow Dave had locked me in the attic. When I realized that there was no other way out, I leaped out the window and came crashing to the ground (cat in hand) to find that at the exact same time Dave was pulling the trunk out the front door using his teeth. So both of us finished with the exact same time of 1 hour and 43 minutes.



My neighbours have said that they are looking at getting a second cat and thinking about have another baby, but they will only get another cat if I can get my time down to 15 minutes and they will only have another baby if Dave can get his time down to a similar number. But Dave and I are pretty strong competitors so that is doubtful.
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#47 Old 06-18-2006, 04:01 PM
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........

2)For those here for abortions. Some of your arguments are would then follow this logic:

...............

c)Abortion is ok because otherwise these kids would live horrible lives.

My mother was almost aborted by my grandmother...she eventually gave birth, found someonese to give my mother to and here we are. I'm in school, doing a PhD...who knows, maybe I'll find something that dramatically improves our planet... but assuming that would have never given me that opportunity.

Animals now live a horrible life...let's kill them too and eat them...we don't want their lives to go in vain...let's use it to feed hungry "unwanted/lacking access to abortion" mothers and kids in Africa.



There's a huge difference between not letting a human being begin life, and in killing an animal that's already experiencing life. But regardless, if my pets, or even I, were living a terribly horrible life, I'd want them (or myself) to be euthanized.



Also, there's a slight change that the close-to-aborted child could grow up to be something 'wonderful,' like another Einstein, etc., but the chances are much much greater that the child will not, mostly becase he/she is being born into a family that did not want the child. It's not worth it in my opinion for 20 babies to be born into horrible conditions just to find 1 Einstein.
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#48 Old 06-18-2006, 04:10 PM
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This is the exact reason why my neighbours, who have both a baby and a cat, are happy that they have a vegan (me) living on one side of them and an omnivore (dave) living on the other side of them.



We even go through fire drills. Here is what happened the last time we had a drill. The parents ran outside with no concern for the safety of their baby or cat, as realistically happens in most house fires. Then Dave and I go dashing into the house. Dave stumbles upon the cat first. He scares it up into the attic, so it will be harder for me to get it outside. When I saw that I rushed up into the baby room, tossed the baby into a large trunk in the closet, locked it and then swallowed the key. Then I started for the attic assured that victory was mine. But, Dave hit me over the head with a lamp and tossed me down the stairs leaving with a broken leg. I crawled up the stairs again and saw that Dave was dragging the trunk out of the baby room. I started to strangle Dave and after I rendered him unconscious I broke all his fingers for good measure (figuring it would be impossible for him to drag the trunk outside with 10 broken fingers.) Then I crawled up into the attic and tried to convince the frightened cat to come out of the spot it was hiding in. This took a long time, but finally I coaxed it out only to find that somehow Dave had locked me in the attic. When I realized that there was no other way out, I leaped out the window and came crashing to the ground (cat in hand) to find that at the exact same time Dave was pulling the trunk out the front door using his teeth. So both of us finished with the exact same time of 1 hour and 43 minutes.



My neighbours have said that they are looking at getting a second cat and thinking about have another baby, but they will only get another cat if I can get my time down to 15 minutes and they will only have another baby if Dave can get his time down to a similar number. But Dave and I are pretty strong competitors so that is doubtful.



I don't know what the point is (haven't read the thread) but this was damn funny
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#49 Old 06-18-2006, 04:11 PM
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It's not worth it in my opinion for 20 babies to be born into horrible conditions just to find 1 Einstein.



The odds are a lot worse than that. There has only ever been one Einstein.
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#50 Old 06-18-2006, 04:13 PM
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i'd save my cat before someone else's baby.



randomness over
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#51 Old 06-18-2006, 04:19 PM
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The odds are a lot worse than that. There has only ever been one Einstein.



And that's exactly my point.
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#52 Old 06-18-2006, 04:35 PM
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I don't know what the point is (haven't read the thread) but this was damn funny



There really wasn't much of a point other than me amusing myself. Oh, and it was kind of an attempt to show how ridiculous I think it is that someone can view certain people (like me) as being anti-human because we value animals just as much.
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#53 Old 06-18-2006, 05:25 PM
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There really wasn't much of a point other than me amusing myself. Oh, and it was kind of an attempt to show how ridiculous I think it is that someone can view certain people (like me) as being anti-human because we value animals just as much.



well it amused me as well. Dave.
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#54 Old 06-18-2006, 05:29 PM
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*There is probably about 1000 animals killed by humans for every fetus killed. Until the time when those numbers start to converge then my priority will be the senseless murdering of animals.



This number is so vastly off. There are over 9 BILLION animals killed just for food (and millions more for research and fur etc.) in the US alone each year. I don't know how many abortions there are in the US each year, but it's not a 1000:1 ratio. Far more than 1000 animals per fetus are killed.

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#55 Old 06-18-2006, 08:43 PM
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People are saying that human overpopulation is a problem and that forcing women to have unwanted children contributes to making that problem worse.

No one forced them to get pregnant... they chose that themselves by having sex and rolling the dice. We are just asking them to be responsible for their actions.



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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

This number is so vastly off. There are over 9 BILLION animals killed just for food (and millions more for research and fur etc.) in the US alone each year. I don't know how many abortions there are in the US each year, but it's not a 1000:1 ratio. Far more than 1000 animals per fetus are killed.

I still don't get that logic. So because more animals are killed, it's ok to kill fetuses simply because no one wants them? It's ok because the don't feel pain, and because they aren't satient?



Which brings me to my next experiment:



Get monkeys, put them to sleep with a little gas, perform all sorts of experiments on them before they wake up, then just kill them after you are done... it's the same thing.



Both the Fetus and monkey:

-had potential for life (or further life)

-felt no pain

-weren't aware of their circumstances

-are now dead by someone else who believes they own the power to say where life begins and ends.
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#56 Old 06-18-2006, 08:48 PM
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My post is simply about the accuracy of the numbers.



However, I'd have to agree that in terms of triaging the situation of animals v. fetuses, the animals' situation far outweighs that of the fetuses in terms of quantity of death.

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#57 Old 06-18-2006, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by troub View Post

Heres my stance and view, posted from a different thread, I realise its not going to be a popular view on mostly liberal boards...or conservative boards for that matter lol..... but yeah:





If one extends compassion of life to the rest of the animal kingdom, why then, can't they extend that compassion to their own species?



My views are consistant for every argument posed. All life should be respected. From dogs, to cows, to bees, to baby humans.



People look at the majority of christians, who while preaching about loving your neighbor and the "weakest among you", will support war and the death penalty, they will support the slaughter of innocent creatures for food, and the slaughter of innocent people in war.



People look at the majority of vegans, who preach about all animals have a right to life. That cows,pigs,chickens, and the rest shouldn't be slaughtered for food, but then turn around and support the genocide of infant humans claiming a womans right to her body. A woman owns the child in her and can do with it what she chooses. Much like a farmer owns his cattle?



Where is the consistancy?



All beings have a right to live.



it is apparently your BELIEF that sentient life begins at conception. however, billions of people on the planet follow religious and philosophical traditions that do not believe that to be the case. there is real controversy over when life begins. I am myself not likely to ever have an abortion. however, I am unwilling to impose one view of sentient life onto the rest of the population that disagrees. therefore, the only thing that makes sense is the right to choose, in my opinion. being vegetarian and supporting the right of choice are not contradictory because I believe your characterization of abortion being the slaughter of children to be unsupportable. however, I would think that being vegetarian and being pro-capital punishment would be contradictory. one is arguably the termination of potential life while the other is the termination of actual life.
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#58 Old 06-18-2006, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

My post is simply about the accuracy of the numbers.



you're right. I was infact quoting you cause I couldn't find the older post about it...
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#59 Old 06-18-2006, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by drveggielvr View Post

No one forced them to get pregnant... they chose that themselves by having sex and rolling the dice. We are just asking them to be responsible for their actions.





Someone Did Force [email protected]!!!!!!! His name was JOHN RAPIST..
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#60 Old 06-18-2006, 10:15 PM
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The way I see it is this. I choose to be vegetarian because eating meat is not necessary, and the eating/supporting of killing animals causes pain. It is pretty damn hard to argue against that. Therefore, I don't eat meat.



Applying those two questions to abortion -- is it necessary, does it cause pain? -- involves entering a grey area. Technically, it is not necessary to abort unless the mother's life is in danger. She or the father could raise the child, or put it up for adoption. They may not be the most fun choices for some people, but they are choices, options nonetheless. They don't HAVE to abort. So except for extreme circumstances, abortion is not necessary. That answers the first question.



My second question is, does it cause the fetus pain? Many would argue it does, but as far as I know, it wouldn't, if it is terminated early enough. My opinion on that is not final since I admit I haven't researched it enough, but that is how my thought process works. Other factors to consider are: how much pain will the child suffer when it is born? Not just physical pain, but emotional. Maybe the child has a genetic disorder that will kill it within a few years. Maybe the mother is a crackhead and plans to throw the child down a garbage chute after it is born. I'm not saying these are reasons to abort, but they are things to consider. One could possible argue that giving birth would cause more pain (to the fetus) than aborting. One could also argue that abortion causes the most pain. Who knows which is right?



My point then is that for vegetarianism, it is proven that we can survive without meat quite happily. I mean we're all here aren't we? Lol. And it doesn't take a genius to see that animals feel pain and don't enjoy being killed. So that is that. But with abortion, there are too many factors to consider for me to draw any conclusion about what is "right" or not. There is contradictory evidence regarding a fetus' ability to feel pain. There is not enough solid proof for me to say to myself, "abortion is wrong." The truth is, I don't know. And until I do know, I'm not going to judge another woman for whatever choice she makes. I do, however, think abortion should be avoided, since it is generally not necessary.



Anyway that's my 0.02 cents on that matter. And if we're going to compare abortion to veg*nism, it would make more sense to compare abortion to plant-eating: A fetus may feel pain, better to be on the safe side and not abort it. Plants may feel pain, better to be on the safe side and be fruitarian. Same concept isn't it? But I don't see many pro-life fruitarians on here lol. and this isn't a serious comparison btw, it's just...an interesting observation.

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