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#61 Old 05-26-2006, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Actually, she took it to the larger level, and I just responded to it. I present "what ifs" to get people to think outside of their normal everyday lives.





Where did I do that?



Link to the post please.
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#62 Old 05-26-2006, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Actually, you started the discussion on violence in general. Not just spanking.



Like I requested, link to the post(s). I've been speaking of spanking all along, you haven't.
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#63 Old 05-26-2006, 01:07 PM
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(off topic) i read something interesting recently that said that in western societies it could be due to the fact that many kids basically expect life to be handed to them... they don't learn to function as part of team with jobs to do. the family dynamic has changed and the parents feel like they should be working their asses off to provide the kids with more material things, when they need more time spent on communication skills, developing values and learning responsibility.



where as a few years ago they were helping to cook and clean and plant veggies and do chores, and learning about budgets and working (like i did, lol) just as part of being in the family unit, now many kids seem to expect to be presented with entertainment and gratification, are plonked in front of a tv, and even get paid for doing things like making their own beds and cleaning their teeth- things which they should be doing anyway!



no wonder i'm coming acorss kid after kid in my work who can't hold down a job and don't see any reason to do so anyway- why would they think any other way?
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#64 Old 05-26-2006, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Where did I do that?



Link to the post please.





https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...3&postcount=95



You didn't say spanking, you said violence.
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#65 Old 05-26-2006, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

(off topic) i read something interesting recently that said that in western societies it could be due to the fact that many kids basically expect life to be handed to them... they don't learn to function as part of team with jobs to do. the family dynamic has changed and the parents feel like they should be working their asses off to provide the kids with more material things, when they need more time spent on communication skills, developing values and learning responsibility.



where as a few years ago they were helping to cook and clean and plant veggies and do chores, and learning about budgets and working (like i did, lol) just as part of being in the family unit, now many kids seem to expect to be presented with entertainment and gratification, are plonked in front of a tv, and even get paid for doing things like making their own beds and cleaning their teeth- things which they should be doing anyway!



no wonder i'm coming acorss kid after kid in my work who can't hold down a job and don't see any reason to do so anyway- why would they think any other way?



That is very true. I remember mowing the lawn when I was little. A push mower in a large yard. I had four sister so we traded chores. We each had to mow the lawn and do our own laundry, so I always mowed it and they did my laundry. It taught us responsibility and a value of work.



Hmmm.. Maybe not. My lawn is overgrown right now and my laundry is piled up. LOL
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#66 Old 05-26-2006, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Looking at the post that sparks all of this just makes my skin crawl..



Attitude adjustments with wooden spoons? Beating it out of us? And that being supported within the family by grannie? That's just wrong man.



You know, if that was an adult hitting another adult, beating them with a wooden spoon until their attitude was adjusted we would call it assault. It's even more wrong in my opinion, when a child is involved simply because of their size difference and inability to fight back.



You know, I don't go around putting adults in time-out, changing their diapers, or read them bedtime stories.



Maybe that's because children and adults aren't the same? Yeah, maybe that's it.
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#67 Old 05-26-2006, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...3&postcount=95



You didn't say spanking, you said violence.





Right. And you see in that post where I quoted Humm. I was addressing her post regarding being beaten with a wooden spoon. How is this not clear to you?
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#68 Old 05-26-2006, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tame View Post

You know, I don't go around putting adults in time-out, changing their diapers, or read them bedtime stories.



Maybe that's because children and adults aren't the same? Yeah, maybe that's it.



Right. Children and adults are very different. I still don't buy that it's cool to hit your kids as a form of punishment.
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#69 Old 05-26-2006, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryC1999 View Post

You are correct. It was an over generalized post directed at a poster that I let get me slightly peeved (not Ducati). Not something I generally let happen with the internet message boards. I do believe it's a failure of parenting and I do think with a little more work most everyone would see it's totally unnecessary. My statement came out seeming more harsh than I intended it to. I think most parents don't *want* to change the use of spanking and that's where I was coming from. Probably clear as mud, I know.

And I think we can discuss spanking without it becoming personal. I can discuss a myraid of decisions I make as a parent without taking it personally.

Mary



Is it any of your goddamn business as to whether I want to change or not? And take your "lazy", "uneducated", and "ignorant" comments and stick 'em you know where.
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#70 Old 05-26-2006, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Right. And you see in that post where I quoted Humm. I was addressing her post regarding being beaten with a wooden spoon. How is this not clear to you?



Like I said, you used a general and all encompassing term. The previous posts were on beating with a spoon and you said violence which would of course include beating with a wooden spoon, beating in general, stabbing, shooting, etc. etc. You took it to the next level, and I was just responding to that.
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#71 Old 05-26-2006, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Like I said, you used a general and all encompassing term. The previous posts were on beating with a spoon and you said violence which would of course include beating with a wooden spoon, beating in general, stabbing, shooting, etc. etc. You took it to the next level, and I was just responding to that.





Oye ve. When you quote someone and address their post, as I did humms, it's not a general post. It's very specific.
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#72 Old 05-26-2006, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tame View Post

You know, I don't go around putting adults in time-out, changing their diapers, or read them bedtime stories.



Maybe that's because children and adults aren't the same? Yeah, maybe that's it.

I used to read my ex bed time stories. It took me a year or so to read the lord of the rings to him because he would always pass out after a page or so but it was nice.
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#73 Old 05-26-2006, 01:33 PM
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You know, I don't go around putting adults in time-out, changing their diapers, or read them bedtime stories.



Maybe that's because children and adults aren't the same? Yeah, maybe that's it.



you're right.. when you do those things for a child, its because you're caring for them, and educating them, so that they can grow up into healthy adults. i expect you read to them, so that they learn reading is fun, and then maybe you'll teach them to read for themselves. when they get bigger you'll teach them to wipe their own asses as well, and lots of other things, so that they can go out into the world and be independant people.



i wonder if at the same time, by spanking them, you'd be subconsiously teaching them that its ok for the bigger person to hit the smaller person, and that the person who hits hardest gets to make the rules, too. that'd help them grow into well adjusted adults.
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#74 Old 05-26-2006, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Oye ve. When you quote someone and address their post, as I did humms, it's not a general post. It's very specific.



Not when you step it up a level by using an all encompassing word.



If someone says Zoloft is bad and the whole discussion is about Zoloft, then someone else says ALL drugs are bad, they just bumped it up a level. Just like you.
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#75 Old 05-26-2006, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

you're right.. when you do those things for a child, its because you're caring for them, and educating them, so that they can grow up into healthy adults. i expect you read to them, so that they learn reading is fun, and then maybe you'll teach them to read for themselves. when they get bigger you'll teach them to wipe their own asses as well, and lots of other things, so that they can go out into the world and be independant people.



So you agree, children aren't adults? Thanks.





Quote:

i wonder if at the same time, by spanking them, you'd be subconsiously teaching them that its ok for the bigger person to hit the smaller person, and that the person who hits hardest gets to make the rules, too. that'd help them grow into well adjusted adults.



Really? You really think that is a how a child interprets punishment?

I guess you aren't worth conversing with on this matter.

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#76 Old 05-26-2006, 01:42 PM
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Really? You really think that is a how a child interprets punishment?



pretty much, i'd say that child logic is a basic thing, and for a lot of kids, thats how it works.



Quote:
I guess you aren't worth conversing with on this matter.



thats cool... i have plenty of other people who work with children, and who have studied child development, to discuss things with. i don't see you actually 'converse' with people very much, anyway.



Quote:
Ignore list. Table for 1.



oooohhhh!!!! hold on.... i think i'm gonna....
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#77 Old 05-26-2006, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Not when you step it up a level by using an all encompassing word.



If someone says Zoloft is bad and the whole discussion is about Zoloft, then someone else says ALL drugs are bad, they just bumped it up a level. Just like you.



It doesn't really matter..it's distracting too much from the discussion at this point. You're right I'm wrong. Arguing who's right or wrong in this specific instance is starting to feel petty to me. So I'll just say you're right.
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#78 Old 05-26-2006, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tame View Post

Is it any of your goddamn business as to whether I want to change or not? And take your "lazy", "uneducated", and "ignorant" comments and stick 'em you know where.



Is it any of my business how you run your family? Nope and I never pretended it was. *We*, in general, are having a conversation (a quite civil one imo) about one aspect of parenting. Not about Tame, or Tame's family or Tame's kids. I'm sure you run your family in whatever way you find to be effective as do I.

If you don't want to be part of the conversation why involve yourself?

Mary
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#79 Old 05-26-2006, 02:19 PM
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You started the **** slinging in the other thread, so I gave my opinion of your thoughts. Now I'm done with you. You and your buddies can get all self righteous and sanctimonious on your own now.

(Oh, and thanks for letting me know that calling everyone who disagrees with you "lazy", "uneducated", and "ignorant" is civil discussion. I'll keep that in mind for when you complain about me in other threads. You can have your soapbox back now.)
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#80 Old 05-26-2006, 02:39 PM
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Did the pot just call the kettle black?
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#81 Old 05-26-2006, 03:57 PM
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Cool, I've been waiting for something on this topic, I'm doing my thesis on this right now.



So here it is:



The likelihood of a child (and later an adult) having the following psychological and social/behvaioural problems is increased if they're spanked



Increased agression

Substance abuse

Depression

Violence towards own spouse and children

Use of spanking with own children

Cruelty to animals



These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head and before people cry for proof, I have it in the form of peer reviewed psychological studies (which I'm using for the literature review of my thesis)
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#82 Old 05-26-2006, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Attitude adjustments with wooden spoons? Beating it out of us? And that being supported within the family by grannie? That's just wrong man.

Attitude adjustment: I want this candy now, wah waah, it's all about me, give me this candy now, I want candy, it looked so cool on TV ----> Oh, man, mom doesnt have a lot of money or patience and just wants to get out of the grocery store so she can go home and cook dinner for me and my sisters. Maybe I should stop being a brat.



I assume you've never gotten the wooden spoon treatment, so I'll explain it to you. Wooden spoons are light and spread the blow over a wide area, resulting in a painful, but generally harmless experience.



And I said grannies, as in by-standers at the store who are happy to see a parent actually doing something about their kid throwing a tantrum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

You know, if that was an adult hitting another adult, beating them with a wooden spoon until their attitude was adjusted we would call it assault. It's even more wrong in my opinion, when a child is involved simply because of their size difference and inability to fight back.

Um, it would be called illegal because one person isn't the parent of a child. In this case you could safely assume the person with the spoon doesnt have the interests of the other in mind. Id like to add the person without the spoon would have a fighting advantage because you can do much more damage with your fist than a wooden kitchen spoon.

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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Thats great if children are never non-violent, but what do you do when a child is violent, armed, and intent on harming others?

Use very stern language and increase their time out to five minutes.



A kid doesnt have to be a juvenile to be violent. There are plenty of three year olds who hit, kick, bite and pull hair.


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Originally Posted by MaryC1999 View Post

That's ridiculous Ducati. The purpose of spanking is to cause some level of physical discomfort. That's harm. Harm doesn't have to mean disabling someone or causing such an injury that can be seen or felt for days later. If it's not meant to hurt the child why do it?

Also I can get my point across to my kids, even my displeasure with their actions, without hitting. As far as not being able to reason with them, my job is to teach my children. Hitting/spanking/whatever does not teach a child. it doesn't reinforce a lesson. It's merely a command for obedience through a threat of physical discomfort.

Mary

The point of a spanking is negative reinforcement (i.e. harm). You use negative reinforcement when you send your kid to the car or take their dinner away from them. The main difference is you used psychological/social negative reinforcement instead of physical.



Lots of kids (particularly girls) can mature ok with little or no spankings. Other kids have such head strong personalities that managing their behavior would be a part time job without forms of strong negative reinforcement. A family friends kid comes to mind. He was 7-8ish and still not potty trained because he couldnt be bothered to stop what he was doing to use the bathroom. His younger brother was potty trained before him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post


i wonder if at the same time, by spanking them, you'd be subconsiously teaching them that its ok for the bigger person to hit the smaller person, and that the person who hits hardest gets to make the rules, too. that'd help them grow into well adjusted adults.

I dont think so. When spankings are done right the kid now only knows why they are being punished, but also are guilty about it. Spanking isnt about violence or force, ideally it is a way for parents to express to their children that they are extremely disappointed in their behavior and there are negative consequences for that behavior.

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Originally Posted by gas4 View Post

I have it in the form of peer reviewed psychological studies (which I'm using for the literature review of my thesis)

Um, the fact that you have it doesnt make it available for us to view and criticize.



Im not really impressed that spanking is associated with those things you listed because: 1) kids who misbehave more (e.g. being aggressive, violent) are more likely to be spanked and 2) studies usually lump spanking and physical abuse together, presumably because the people who conduct them are so strongly against the practice that they cant distinguish between the two.

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#83 Old 05-26-2006, 07:16 PM
 
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gas4: If you're going to make such statements, you need to back them up.

<<very anti-spanking, thinks there are far more effective disciplines, won't spank her own children, has written multiple papers encompassing the subject of spanking, but....



You need to show your proof.



Granted, this is a very personal, intense, subject, but maybe we could take it a little less personally. Mary's already commented that maybe she let someone get her goat a bit, and that she doesn't think all spankers are "lazy" "uneducated" or "ignorant".



As far as the discussion of who took the thread toward the topic of violence as a whole, it's really unimportant and is only serving as some sort of virtual pissing contest.



re: the subject at hand, I haven't seen anyone address the effectiveness of spanking. That is, is it the best (most effective) way of getting the behavior you desire. And on a more long term level (this is where I think it fails), does it product the results you're looking for.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#84 Old 05-26-2006, 09:44 PM
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You guys should watch nanny 911. those kids don't get spanked and they eventually learn to behave. Kids need to be informed that their behaviour is wrong (when thay act out) and why it is wrong and I do beleive that a time out is a more effective punishment. I was never spanked and I'm fine. My husband was spanked as a child and that he beleives caused him to act out violently as a child. I vow never to spank my son no matter how naughty he acts,
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#85 Old 05-26-2006, 09:50 PM
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My girlfriend loves to get spanked, but only when she's been really naughty.



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#86 Old 05-26-2006, 09:52 PM
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As far as the discussion of who took the thread toward the topic of violence as a whole, it's really unimportant and is only serving as some sort of virtual pissing contest.







Exactly. That's why I buried it previously.
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#87 Old 05-26-2006, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tame View Post

Oh, gee. Another thread where some people can get on their collective soapbox to call me a lazy, unenlightened, ignorant parent. Damn, it's like dinner at the in-laws.



And just like at the in-laws, my response is...blow me.



And if some of you holier-than-thou types really want to play this game, I can let y'all know what I think about your parenting.



Let rip Tame!!!!
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#88 Old 05-26-2006, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hummusisyummus View Post


I assume you've never gotten the wooden spoon treatment, so I'll explain it to you. Wooden spoons are light and spread the blow over a wide area, resulting in a painful, but generally harmless experience.



And I said grannies, as in by-standers at the store who are happy to see a parent actually doing something about their kid throwing a tantrum.



It's not good to assume something you know nothing about. I used to have to pull a switch off the tree when my aunt watched us in West Virginia. Then I got it pants down. I wouldn't feel so strongly about it if I hadn't experienced it myself and had those feelings attached. Wooden spoon, switch, belt buckle...all objects.



It always make me stop in my tracks when I see a kid being whooped in public. Not only do you have the spanking itself, now you have humiliation on top of it. Guess I probably wouldn't know anything about that either though, huh?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummusisyummus View Post

Um, it would be called illegal because one person isn't the parent of a child. In this case you could safely assume the person with the spoon doesnt have the interests of the other in mind. Id like to add the person without the spoon would have a fighting advantage because you can do much more damage with your fist than a wooden kitchen spoon.



They very well could be parent/kid. 18 makes you legal.
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#89 Old 05-26-2006, 10:42 PM
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You guys should watch nanny 911. those kids don't get spanked and they eventually learn to behave.



Well golly gee, and here I have been missing the be-all and end-all of parenting skills. Nanny 911.

Thanks. I'll pass.
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#90 Old 05-26-2006, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Exactly. That's why I buried it previously.



And you are doing such a good job at burying it.
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