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#31 Old 05-26-2006, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

All ST pointed out is that in an idealistic world, violence against children is never justified. Now she added animals. I wonder what I should do if I see a dog attacking a child? I can't use violence, so I will say nice things to the dog until it stops. Is that acceptable?

That's not what I'm perceiving from her posts.
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#32 Old 05-26-2006, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

violence:

1. Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.

2. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.

3. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.

4. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.

5. Abuse or injury to meaning, content, or intent: do violence to a text.

6. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor.



i would say that violence is not a neccesary treatment of a child, for protection or otherwise.



i would say that there are occasions during which use of appropriate force is needed to maintain the safety of a child- like holding someone, or pushing them out of the path of an oncoming car, but that is not an act of violence, its a controlled use of pressure.



Thats great if children are never non-violent, but what do you do when a child is violent, armed, and intent on harming others?
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#33 Old 05-26-2006, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

I see you can't handle this discussion without getting immature about it, so I guess you really don't believe in the matter as strongly as you say you do. It is pointless in trying to have a debate, because you can't see beyond your own idealistic world.



What's so immature about what I posted? Jeez...presumptious to believe I don't care about the matter as strongly as I do.



Don't you ever get tired of playing the devils advocate by the way? I know it's getting old with me.
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#34 Old 05-26-2006, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

All ST pointed out is that in an idealistic world, violence against children is never justified. Now she added animals. I wonder what I should do if I see a dog attacking a child? I can't use violence, so I will say nice things to the dog until it stops. Is that acceptable?



Duh. If a dog is attacking a child you'd physically intervene. Are you comparing a dog attacking a child with a parent spanking their kid now? Where's the connection?
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#35 Old 05-26-2006, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Thats great if children are never non-violent, but what do you do when a child is violent, armed, and intent on harming others?



Reads to me like you are trying to merge two different cases. Sound like you are attempting to discuss juvenille delinquency with the debate regarding beating children with wooden spoons to adjust their attitude.



The two aren't even remotely the same.



You still haven't given your opinion regarding beating a kid with a wooden spoon..are you cool with that?
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#36 Old 05-26-2006, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

What's so immature about what I posted? Jeez...presumptious to believe I don't care about the matter as strongly as I do.



Don't you ever get tired of playing the devils advocate by the way? I know it's getting old with me.





Well, you told me to beat anything I wanted. Sounds like you don't care much.



Don't you ever get tired of seeing things only through your own eyes? I know it's getting old with me.
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#37 Old 05-26-2006, 12:21 PM
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"beat anything you want" is a double entendre.



Concerning kids, I see clear as a bell when it comes to their well being.
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#38 Old 05-26-2006, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

Reads to me like you are trying to merge two different cases. Sound like you are attempting to discuss juvenille delinquency with the debate regarding beating children with wooden spoons to adjust their attitude.



The two aren't even remotely the same.



You still haven't given your opinion regarding beating a kid with a wooden spoon..are you cool with that?



Actually, you are the one you merged the cases when you said "Violence against children is never ever justifiable or "right" and very unneccessary."
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#39 Old 05-26-2006, 12:23 PM
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Thats great if children are never non-violent, but what do you do when a child is violent, armed, and intent on harming others?



(i'm assuming you mean 'if children are non violent' or 'are never violent')



my mum is a teacher, and i have a friend who works with very developmentally delayed adults, who are often violent... and in the UK they are allowed to use appropriate restraining force. you can hold onto them, you can disarm them if appropriate, you can move others out of their way. you can't throw things at them or smack them. if you go round meeting violence with violence, well, then you have 2 violent people, don't you.... like thats a better outcome. if someone is behaving abusively... say kicking you.. i don't really think that kicking them back is the smartest or most appropriate thing to do, especially if they're smaller than you.
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#40 Old 05-26-2006, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by davisfilip View Post

mary,

in the other thread, you said "Frankly anyone who resorts to hitting their child is doing so because they can't be bothered to parent correctly. "...in this thread, you said "I don't think parents who spank are lazy or ignorant, I think the act of spanking is. This isn't personal towards anyone."...sounds like your contradicting yourself...and i don't think you can talk about the way a person parents without being personal...

btw, i am a parent and i don't spank...

also, the word "ignorant" is not a bad thing--does not equal dumb or stupid...saying someone "can't be bothered to parent correctly" is a lot more offensive than saying someone is "ignorant"...



You are correct. It was an over generalized post directed at a poster that I let get me slightly peeved (not Ducati). Not something I generally let happen with the internet message boards. I do believe it's a failure of parenting and I do think with a little more work most everyone would see it's totally unnecessary. My statement came out seeming more harsh than I intended it to. I think most parents don't *want* to change the use of spanking and that's where I was coming from. Probably clear as mud, I know.

And I think we can discuss spanking without it becoming personal. I can discuss a myraid of decisions I make as a parent without taking it personally.

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#41 Old 05-26-2006, 12:25 PM
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True Ducati. Sorry I didn't specify more for you. How about this:



Violence as a form of corporal punishment against a child is never every justifiable or right and is very unneccessary.



Since we were speaking of spanking as a form of punishment and not Jr. robbing the corning store for a bag of Fritos I'd assume you'd get that from my post you refer to..
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#42 Old 05-26-2006, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

(i'm assuming you mean 'if children are non violent' or 'are never violent')



my mum is a teacher, and i have a friend who works with very developmentally delayed adults, who are often violent... and in the UK they are allowed to use appropriate restraining force. you can hold onto them, you can disarm them if appropriate, you can move others out of their way. you can't throw things at them or smack them. if you go round meeting violence with violence, well, then you have 2 violent people, don't you.... like thats a better outcome. if someone is behaving abusively... say kicking you.. i don't really think that kicking them back is the smartest or most appropriate thing to do, especially if they're smaller than you.





And if the child is shooting people? What do you do then?
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#43 Old 05-26-2006, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

The purpose of spanking is not to cause harm. If it is taken to the extent of harm, then that is abuse. The purpose of spanking is to let a child know they have displeased their parents by breaking their rules. It can be a very benign act physically, but have a very large psychological impact. It is not to invoke fear, but rather encourage actions, which garner approval from a parent.



If all children without a disability can be reasoned with, then if they commit a crime, they should be treated as an adult. Luckily, I don't believe all children can be reasoned with. Thats what makes them children. They lack ability to reason. That is why they are not allowed to buy alcohol, drive, own weapons, go certain places alone, etc.



Children have been killed going to school. We need to ban all education because it gets children killed. How is that for a completely ridiculous over generalized statement?



That's ridiculous Ducati. The purpose of spanking is to cause some level of physical discomfort. That's harm. Harm doesn't have to mean disabling someone or causing such an injury that can be seen or felt for days later. If it's not meant to hurt the child why do it?

Also I can get my point across to my kids, even my displeasure with their actions, without hitting. As far as not being able to reason with them, my job is to teach my children. Hitting/spanking/whatever does not teach a child. it doesn't reinforce a lesson. It's merely a command for obedience through a threat of physical discomfort.

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#44 Old 05-26-2006, 12:28 PM
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#45 Old 05-26-2006, 12:29 PM
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and before this escalates to 'what about a kid with a gun?' (which has nothing to do with a parent hitting their child as a form of disipline or punishment) firstly- this shouldnt even be allowed to happen in my books... secondly... you can stop someone with a gun with a fire hose, spray foam, etc, there are all kinds of methods that don't hurt them, but disable them quite effectively.
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#46 Old 05-26-2006, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

And if the child is shooting people? What do you do then?







We are discussing spanking. Not kids with guns. How bout another thread perhaps. This one will get way off base with that topic merged together with this one.
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#47 Old 05-26-2006, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post

True Ducati. Sorry I didn't specify more for you. How about this:



Violence as a form of corporal punishment against a child is never every justifiable or right and is very unneccessary.



Since we were speaking of spanking as a form of punishment and not Jr. robbing the corning store for a bag of Fritos I'd assume you'd get that from my post you refer to..





Why would you assume that? Why wouldn't I assume that what you said is one step up and all encompassing?



Also, corporal punishment is violent in nature. I don't feel corporal punishment has any redeeming qualities. However, violence against children may at times be justifiable.
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#48 Old 05-26-2006, 12:35 PM
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hold on here... maybe ducati is right.... if my kid came up to me and tried to shoot me, i'd feel justified in slapping him round the head just a little bit. mind you, if i'd been treating him with violence for some time, i'd kind of understand why he felt the need to shoot me, just like i'd understand if a dog i persistantly mistreated chose to bite me- its learned behaviour- teach someone that violence is appropriate, they'll be violent.
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#49 Old 05-26-2006, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryC1999 View Post

That's ridiculous Ducati. The purpose of spanking is to cause some level of physical discomfort. That's harm. Harm doesn't have to mean disabling someone or causing such an injury that can be seen or felt for days later. If it's not meant to hurt the child why do it?

Also I can get my point across to my kids, even my displeasure with their actions, without hitting. As far as not being able to reason with them, my job is to teach my children. Hitting/spanking/whatever does not teach a child. it doesn't reinforce a lesson. It's merely a command for obedience through a threat of physical discomfort.

Mary



The purpose of reprimanding a child is to cause some level of psychological discomfort. So, do you ever ground your child? Talk sternly to them?
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#50 Old 05-26-2006, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

and before this escalates to 'what about a kid with a gun?' (which has nothing to do with a parent hitting their child as a form of disipline or punishment) firstly- this shouldnt even be allowed to happen in my books... secondly... you can stop someone with a gun with a fire hose, spray foam, etc, there are all kinds of methods that don't hurt them, but disable them quite effectively.



Time to take off the rose colored glasses dear. LOL



First off, the topic switched from a parents punishment of a child a long time ago. In addition, if I am at the mall and some 13 year starts shooting people, I am not going to run and get a fire hose while people are dying. I am going to shoot that kid dead if I have to.
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#51 Old 05-26-2006, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post





We are discussing spanking. Not kids with guns. How bout another thread perhaps. This one will get way off base with that topic merged together with this one.



Actually, you started the discussion on violence in general. Not just spanking.
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#52 Old 05-26-2006, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

Time to take off the rose colored glasses dear. LOL



First off, the topic switched from a parents punishment of a child a long time ago. In addition, if I am at the mall and some 13 year starts shooting people, I am not going to run and get a fire house while people are dying. I am going to shoot that kid dead if I have to.

would you say that children shooting people represents a majority of kids therefore the practice of smacking kids around should be a standard parenting style?



eta: btw, i think the topic only switched for you lol
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#53 Old 05-26-2006, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gaya View Post

would you say that children shooting people represents a majority of kids therefore the practice of smacking kids around should be a standard parenting style?



No, why would you ask me that. I already made it clear I am not in favor of abuse in any form.
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#54 Old 05-26-2006, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducati View Post

The purpose of reprimanding a child is to cause some level of psychological discomfort. So, do you ever ground your child? Talk sternly to them?



There is a difference in imposing rules (BTW the answer is no but they're only 5) and spanking. When my children go into the work force someday they will have to follow those rules. Should they break those rules (either those of society or those of their chosen workplace) there will be strict consequences, none of which will be physical in nature (we'll just leave the "extras" of jail out of the conversation for now). By having rules, such as a curfew or basic rules regarding conduct, and logical consequences for those rules I am allowing them to learn how the world operates. Here there is no choice. If I don't impose rules and consequences I have children who will grow to adults not understanding the real world imposes punishment for wrongdoing. That will cause some psychological discomfort. Either way it will happen, now or later. The best choice, in this case, is to pick what will cause less discomfort, the rules now and the small consequences they carry with them. The later consequences will be far greater than any I impose (think grounding vs jail sentence or losing your job, repeatedly).

You have a choice on whether or not to inflict physical pain so why choose it?

Mary
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#55 Old 05-26-2006, 12:49 PM
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Time to take off the rose colored glasses dear. LOL



First off, the topic switched from a parents punishment of a child a long time ago. In addition, if I am at the mall and some 13 year starts shooting people, I am not going to run and get a fire house while people are dying. I am going to shoot that kid dead if I have to.



i hear you.. thats your perogative... personally, i wouldn't be carrying a gun, so it wouldnt be an option for me.... and if someone put one in my hands, i don't think i could do it- i could shoot them in the arm, maybe at a push, but anyway, i'd be looking to duck and run like hell- either way, thats my problem. i hate to sound idealistic, but i'd say that if there is a kid with a gun in a mall, then as a society we've failed that kid bigtime. i don't know where you live, but where i am we don't have such a big problem with kids with guns in malls, so maybe we're doing ok- perhaps its due to the way we treat our kids here.
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#56 Old 05-26-2006, 12:49 PM
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No, why would you ask me that. I already made it clear I am not in favor of abuse in any form.

Really? lol geeze I'm not following this thread well at all then.
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#57 Old 05-26-2006, 12:51 PM
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would you say that children shooting people represents a majority of kids therefore the practice of smacking kids around should be a standard parenting style?



eta: btw, i think the topic only switched for you lol



I think he ran with a small part of what sotallytober was saying and blew it up on a larger level. I was a little lost too though, I thought we were still talking about parents and children and I had no idea where the kids with guns thing came out of. lol

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#58 Old 05-26-2006, 12:52 PM
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I think he ran with a small part of what sotallytober was saying and blew it up on a larger level. I was a little lost too though, I thought we were still talking about parents and children and I had no idea where the kids with guns thing came out of. lol

Mary

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#59 Old 05-26-2006, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

i hear you.. thats your perogative... personally, i wouldn't be carrying a gun, so it wouldnt be an option for me.... and if someone put one in my hands, i don't think i could do it- i could shoot them in the arm, maybe at a push, but anyway, i'd be looking to duck and run like hell- either way, thats my problem. i hate to sound idealistic, but i'd say that if there is a kid with a gun in a mall, then as a society we've failed that kid bigtime. i don't know where you live, but where i am we don't have such a big problem with kids with guns in malls, so maybe we're doing ok- perhaps its due to the way we treat our kids here.





I agree. I think more and more societies are failing their children. I just read an article about young Turkish girls are comitting suicide so a male family member won't have to goto jail when they murder then in an honor killing. I think it is spreading more and more as people spend more time working and less time with their children.
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#60 Old 05-26-2006, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MaryC1999 View Post

I think he ran with a small part of what sotallytober was saying and blew it up on a larger level. I was a little lost too though, I thought we were still talking about parents and children and I had no idea where the kids with guns thing came out of. lol

Mary



Actually, she took it to the larger level, and I just responded to it. I present "what ifs" to get people to think outside of their normal everyday lives.
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