Sexism - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 07-01-2003, 06:06 AM
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I never noticed how much sexism ther eis in the world up until very recently, and I have an attractive female acquaintance. (Not my girlfriend - It's someone else!) I was walking down the street with her, and one of my male friends, and this group of old men whistles at her, and I couldn't resist to get in on the action, i turned round, blew them a kiss and gave an effeminate wave. They looked pretty pissed off, and they shouted "Not you, queer!"



It's so funny to do that. i think they were homophobic as well! I love harassing homophobes. It's even more fun when they're sexist homophobes as well! I'm not gay, but I absoutely love pretending to be gay simply so i can wind up homophobes.



But anyway, if any of the VB guys are with female acquaintances and some guy whistles or shouts to get your female friend to turn round, act in a stereotypically gay fashion, as if you're attracted to them. Hopefully they'll see that it is annoying to be thought of as a sex object.



Back to the sexism, (i sorta digressed there) this isn't uncommon. There are a lot of men out there who are sexist. I wouldn't relaly have much experience myself, since it's only recently that i've started hanging out with women. (I used to avoid them in te past as they were very much alien to me, being from venus, when I'm from mars.) I just want to know if the VB women encounter chauvanism/sexism off of men who view them as sex objects on aregular basis, or if the situation is actually getting better.
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#2 Old 07-01-2003, 06:42 AM
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I'm not a hottie, so I don't get the whistling and that sort of thing. But for some reason many guys I work with get the impression that I want to sleep with them. How, I have no idea. I asked one of them a while ago, and he said it's the way I talk/write to them. I think it's just a normal, friendly and maybe a little silly way, not at all meant to attract them sexually! Weird.. you men are such... sweeties!
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#3 Old 07-01-2003, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Loki

I love harassing homophobes. It's even more fun when they're sexist homophobes as well! I'm not gay, but I absoutely love pretending to be gay simply so i can wind up homophobes.



Yeah, harassing homophobes is so much fun. A guy I worked with for a couple of years was very homophobic; so I'd hug and kiss him without warning all the time..... he hated it.

And there was another guy at work who I'd hold hands with, put my arm around, and stick my tongue in his ear just to bug the sh*t out of the homophobic guy (and a few other homophobes at work).

If there's any sport I like, it's pissing off homophobes.
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#4 Old 07-01-2003, 11:48 AM
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Its interesting the difference in sexism between cultures. My fi grew up in Panama, and only came to Canada for her university education. She said that during her first summer of uni (when she went back to Panama) men whistled at her everyday on her way to and from work. However, the following summer which she spent here in Canada, she almost never got cat-calls when she was walking alone.
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#5 Old 07-01-2003, 07:12 PM
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Ahhhh yes.... male chauvanists, there's waaaaaaayyyyyy to many of them.



I hate the fact that men think they can just whistle and scream comments like "show us yer tits". It's so rude.



I also find that men find it hard to believe that I'm smart. Being blonde, 19 and a girl, I'm supposed to be a ditz and not allowed a brain, it's BS.



Here in Australia, or Prime Minister is a male chauvanist pig, so there's not really much hope here.



I played soccer for four years, my whole family does or has at some point. Anyway, one year we got this really sexist coach who thought that women weren't good enough and shouldn't play soccer ie. 'male orientated sports'. He was a jerk and didn't last as a coach for a full season. Anyway he was at my parents place last weekend while I was there (he plays for my dad's team) and I was really rude to him, I don't think he realised who I was though.



In high school our principle was a big sexist. The school backed every BOYS rugby, AFL and cricket game, but would only back the girls netball and even that was a big ask. They refused to support the girls soccer, rugby or hockey teams, even our softball team was forgotten. I was on all the above mentioned teams and it was such a shame we weren't permitted to compete in the extra comps like the boys were, we had some great sportswomen.



Loki, just take a look at how little recognition women's professional sport gets...... i wish I could say it was even half the coverage men get.
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#6 Old 07-01-2003, 07:39 PM
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Who teaches these men to act like this? Their parents. Who is often the primary caregiver of the children for the first 18 years of their lives? Women.



I have found as many sexist women towards women then men. Women have bought into the old sterotypes and drag them along.



"You're acting like a little girl," a woman at the playground says to her crying son.



"You'd perfer the barbie set then the chemistry set. What would you want with a chemistry set?"



"You can join all the sports you want." (to her son). "Join cheerleading. That's a girl's' sport."



Call me weird, but I do not blame men for all the problems. I blame as many women as men. In fact, I've met more women who were the cause then men, but I'm sure that, before I die, I'll find equal numbers of both genders.



I didn't go to a sexist school, which was mostly male teachers. I didn't have sexist profs in university, which I took most classes from males - they taught the classes I was interested in. I didn't experience sexism until I entered the workforce and found petty, jealous women who wanted women to all act like them.
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#7 Old 07-01-2003, 09:14 PM
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I agree that some women, as well as men, perpetuate stereotyping. On the other hand, I think that a somewhat larger percentage of women are aware of the problem and try NOT to perpetuate it.



And maybe I've been lucky, but I have NOT had any problem with petty, jealous women since I've been in the workforce; quite to the contrary, I've experienced a lot of "sisterhood." (Maybe the petty, jealous woman is another sexual stereotype?! )
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#8 Old 07-01-2003, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurmudgeon

Yeah, harassing homophobes is so much fun. A guy I worked with for a couple of years was very homophobic; so I'd hug and kiss him without warning all the time..... he hated it.

And there was another guy at work who I'd hold hands with, put my arm around, and stick my tongue in his ear just to bug the sh*t out of the homophobic guy (and a few other homophobes at work).

If there's any sport I like, it's pissing off homophobes.



Are they really homophobes? Or perhaps they don't want some smelly guy who lives in his mom's basement kissing them without warning?
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#9 Old 07-01-2003, 10:39 PM
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Kristadb I agree there are many women who still believe in "traditional" roles for a woman and I think I find that more offensive than a male sexist.



It's strange, they say that all is equal in the work place now, but the glass ceiling still exists.
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#10 Old 07-02-2003, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurmudgeon

Yeah, harassing homophobes is so much fun. A guy I worked with for a couple of years was very homophobic; so I'd hug and kiss him without warning all the time..... he hated it.

And there was another guy at work who I'd hold hands with, put my arm around, and stick my tongue in his ear just to bug the sh*t out of the homophobic guy (and a few other homophobes at work).

If there's any sport I like, it's pissing off homophobes.



that's rude behavior and for you to pass it off as "pissing off homophobes" gives gay folk a very, very bad name, for any sane woman or man would want to slap the hell out of you for doing that and probably have you hemmed up in court for sexual harrassment...



"traditional" is too vague in describing certain oppressive stereotypes perpetuated by women...i still prefer to be ultimately spoiled by men and would never want to be the sole breadwinner in my family - though i'd do it if i had to...however, i do agree that women can be women's worst enemies, especially when it comes to making moms that bottlefeed feel really, really bad and single moms throwing out their pregnant teen daughters to live where ever as long as it's not with them...
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#11 Old 07-02-2003, 06:50 AM
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Wimbledon is one example of sexism - Women get paid less thant he men. I'm all for equal prize money at wimbledon.



And it'd be great if more women's sports did get coverage.
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#12 Old 07-02-2003, 08:36 AM
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I have encountered the whistiling and shouts all through my life. Now that I have a child I don't get them that much anymore. They never really annoyed me back then because they weren't all that rude, If someone said "show me your tits" or something along those lines, I would be PISSED but just a little whistle is not annoying to me and besides I'm guilty of doing a little whistling myself when I see a fine guy walking down the street.
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#13 Old 07-02-2003, 08:45 AM
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"You're acting like a little girl," a woman at the playground says to her crying son.



I hate when mothers or anyone say this, I hear it frequently among young kids, it can really make a girl feel inferior because it's basically saying that to act like and be a girl is a bad, undesirable thing.
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#14 Old 07-02-2003, 09:33 AM
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Kristadb I agree there are many women who still believe in "traditional" roles for a woman and I think I find that more offensive than a male sexist.

Its interesting you should say that. It brings to mind something a woman said in another forum I used to visit. She said that she was tired of feminists egging on her because she had chosen to stay at home with the kids. She had decided that was what she wanted to do, not because she felt it what was expected of her as a woman, but because it was something she loved the idea of. Im inclined to agree with her. Many feminists seem to think that any woman who stays at home with the kids, is harming the womans freedom movement. If a couple is looking to have someone stay at home with the kids, shouldnt it be up to them who stays home? On that note, if men and women are supposed to be equal, then should it matter who stays home? That is, if all things are equal, there should be the same number of women as men staying home with the kids. By saying that women shouldnt stay home, arent you in fact discriminating against them?
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#15 Old 07-03-2003, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Loki

Wimbledon is one example of sexism - Women get paid less thant he men. I'm all for equal prize money at wimbledon.



And it'd be great if more women's sports did get coverage.



Same here - but only if they play best of 5 sets. I don't see why they shouldn't have the same workload as the male players. Its also one reason why women's tennis can be a bit boring at times - not because they're women but because there is little opportunity to fight back in a best of 3 match. Men can loose 2 sets and win 2 and then have a huge fifth set battle.
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#16 Old 07-03-2003, 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Tova

I have encountered the whistiling and shouts all through my life.



Same. I used to get all embarrassed and go red when I was younger. Then I started to get angry about it later on. Now I just shout back "You wanna see my tits? Why what's wrong with my dick?" Shuts em up at least. I usually only do it if there are a few non-show-us-your-tits guys around cause they are more likely to laugh at the guy that started it and embarrass him.
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#17 Old 07-03-2003, 07:50 AM
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i find the preditory nature of some male gazes and body language to be most intimidating and often frightening.



it's worse than the cat calls or the other comments. most people do it, they do it silently.



also, i agree that acting particularly "female" as a male is a bad idea. My husband simply tells such men that they are being rude, and that he doens't appreciate their inappropriate behavoir toward women.
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#18 Old 07-03-2003, 08:47 AM
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By saying that women shouldnt stay home, arent you in fact discriminating against them?



Shamus, you have some good points in your post.



I also hate to see people discriminate against guys and say they can't be a stay at home dad while the mom does the outside work. A lot of the time these men are seen as weak because a women takes care of them.

There is a lot of discrimination and sexism going on with both sexes not just females.
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#19 Old 07-03-2003, 08:55 AM
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My husband's one of those guys who will beat the crap out of a guy if he crosses the line. If while we're at a bar, a guy starts talking to me, I'll inform him I'm married and not interested. Usually that is respected. Occasionally there's the guy who wants to challange saying somrthing like, "well where's your husband". That's when my husband will step in and the have a go at the guy.



There are certain things that bother him more than others. He knows that I can take care of myself, but I also like having him stand up for me if a guy is especially rude.



I had a guy the other day, try following me home, while I'm walking with my son. I told him to f*** off, shut up. He wouldn't lay up. I was about to turn around and knock him out (didn't want to be violent in front of my son) so I opted to cross the street to where there were construction workers, the guy left at that point. I always carry my "rib crackers" ( kinda like brass knuckes) for this purpose, weirdo people, I will defend myself.



Just as another point, I went to Monteal and I saw NO sexism. There was even a beautiful woman who's shirt was very see-through, and no one gawked and stared. I witnessed no one making sexual remarks, or whistling,ect.
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#20 Old 07-03-2003, 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by punkmommy



Just as another point, I went to Monteal and I saw NO sexism. There was even a beautiful woman who's shirt was very see-through, and no one gawked and stared. I witnessed no one making sexual remarks, or whistling,ect.



If a woman is walking around in a see-through shirt, I will look at her boobs. If she doesn't like it, too bad. You don't show 'em if you don't want people to look.
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#21 Old 07-03-2003, 11:47 AM
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Hell I would look too...
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#22 Old 07-03-2003, 12:34 PM
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I just meant that no one seemed to really care. It wasn't a big deal. I stared. I was like, "woah, boobies". I think she wanted the attention, but it just wasn't really happening (except from us American delinquents).
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#23 Old 07-03-2003, 01:08 PM
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there are so many ways for sexism to rear it's ugly head. the stuff like cat-calls and whistling and objectifying women is the easily identifiable stuff...the overt sexism. this is easy for all of us to see and call out. the really hard part is the subversive, the internalized, the institutionalized sexism that we are trained to not recognize, that we just accept as a normal part of society. once you start to become sensitized to these types of harder-to-spot sexism, you start to really understand how ingrained it all is in our culture, and it gets to feeling really scary and hard to believe.



feminists in the 60s and 70s (mostly white, middle class women), co-opted the feminist movement and removed it from it's more radical and paradigm-shattering roots, and turned it into something that was almost completely about equal work for equal pay, and sexual harrassment. the media focused on these aspects of feminism, but neglected (and continues to neglect) the myriad of other ways men and women and children suffer under the thumb of the patriarchy. there is a lot to be said about this. there are a lot of books about it. i can't possible talk about it all. but i certainly encourage everyone to educate themselves as much as possible about it.
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#24 Old 07-03-2003, 05:49 PM
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I get really annoyed when it happens in sports too. In some races the guys do, like twice the distance of the girls. Stupid considering that the girls are Just as good and, well there's more of us.
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#25 Old 07-03-2003, 07:37 PM
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punkmommy, I know what you mean.

Luckily as well as my bf, I have some very protective male friends.

One night I was at a club with some friends when this guy I'd met before noticed me and said hi. I remembered who he was and said hi back and continued to walk past when he grabbed my waist and refused to let go. I was terrified, this guy is an Australian champion boxer and is very built. He had me round the waist and was holding my arms real tight. I kept telling him to let go. One of my very built guy friends must have seen the panic on my face and came and got me. I hate guys who think they have the right to touch. I was a waitress for a few years and now I work behind a bar.

I've been given ph numbers and marriage proposals, but that doesn't bother me, what does is the bum pinching and outright staring, it's so bloody rude.

I know guys would feel as errrrrwww as we do if we did it.



Kreeli, I completely agree. Women seem to accept that even if they reach the peak of their career, they wont earn as much as their male counterpart and they'll find VERY few women at the top. I did an assignment, about 5 years ago now, on the glass ceiling and the lack of female CEOs and directors. As a society we should refuse to accept this disrespect towards women, as it not only impacts on us females, but many men oppose it.
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#26 Old 07-03-2003, 07:45 PM
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here is an interesting list someone put together.



Quote:
The Male Privilege Checklist



1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.



2. I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex -- even though that might be true.



3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.



4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.



5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.



6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.



7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.



8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.



9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.



10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.



11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.



12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.



13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.



14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.



15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.



16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.



17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.



18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.



19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.



20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.



21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex.



22. If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex.



23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.



24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.



25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world.



26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.



27. If I buy a new car, chances are I'll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.



28. If I'm not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.



29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.



30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)



31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal," mailman, chairman, freshman, he.



32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.



33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if i don't change my name.



34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.



35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.



36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.



37. If I have a wife or girlfriend, chances are we'll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.



38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she'll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.



39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.



40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.



41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.



42. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.



43. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.



(Compiled by [email protected]. Permission is granted to reproduce this list in any way, for any purpose, so long as the acknowledgment of Peggy McIntosh's work for inspiring this list is not removed.)

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#27 Old 07-03-2003, 08:33 PM
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I'm resisting the strong urge to unlease over the list posted above me.



Let me just say that I've only experienced a couple of the things on your lists and some were from women, not men.



I am equal to a man and I act accordingly. I am not better then one and not less. Equal. And because I act this way, I have been treated with respect by 95% of the men I have encountered. And, it is because I act this way, that 75% of the women I have met in my life do not treat me equally or with respect.



And I don't see anything wrong with most "cat calls." Whistling, "hey baby", and "lookin' good" compliments are a bunch of men being silly in a group. It is no different then when a group of women get together and start sizing up a man, get his attention and giggle loudly. For the most part, both are a compliment. Take it as such.
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#28 Old 07-03-2003, 08:46 PM
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women can be sexist. in fact, i would say the majority of women in our society are.



just because you, personally, krista, have only felt the acute sting of overt sexism one or two times in your life doesn't preclude the fact that our entire society is permeated by sexist thinking.
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#29 Old 07-03-2003, 08:49 PM
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/shrug



I can count all the times I've seen or experienced sexism and I have enough fingers and toes to do it. Perhaps I've been lucky or perhaps I'm not nearly as sensitive as other women. Perhaps I truely don't care, as long as you don't screw with me.
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#30 Old 07-03-2003, 08:58 PM
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1) men have to be tough, have to deny their feelings, get called sissies when they cry = sexism



2) women should fit a certain body image, so that they will be attractive to men = sexism



3) men are the majority when it comes to holding positions of power/political influence/high honour or wages...the overwhelming majority = sexism



4) women are automatically assumed to be the primary caregivers in any heterosexual partnership where there are children, even when they are working outside the home. (imo, men really lose out in this respect, too...they don't have the same opportunities to bond with their children -- nor are they really "allowed" to -- the way women do; this is just more male suffering at the hands of sexism). = sexism



5) women also automatically take on the responsibility for most of the repetitive household chores (cooking, dishes, laundry), even when they are working outside the home or doing the hard work of caring for children all day long = sexism



so, krista, are you really telling me you've only experienced or seen sexism in action a few times in your life, even with these kinds of examples presented to you?
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