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#1 Old 06-13-2003, 12:46 PM
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Ok, my interest was very much piqued by the discussion of Wicca and veganism as well as the one about not proselytizing non-veg*ns. The dilemma: I come from a Christian background, and still believe in God myself (though I do tend more toward agnosticism). My family are either Catholic or fundamentalist, and so is my room mate. Their take on veg*nism is that God put animals here for us to eat, so why shouldn't we? My roommate likes to quote that verse (Acts, I think?) which says we shouldn't refuse "any good thing" God has given us to eat. Is anybody else dealing with this? Half the reason I became vegan was because causing needless pain to other lives seemed contrary to Judeo-Christian message I generally subscribe to. I tend to put those verses dealing explicitly with eating meat (Deuteronomy, Acts) in the same category as the ones supposedly condoning slavery.

How do y'all respond?
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#2 Old 06-13-2003, 01:02 PM
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I'm not a Christian but would just say that you need to interpret the Bible in a way that makes sence to you. I doubt that there are any 2 people on Earth that interpret the Bible in exactly the same way.
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#3 Old 06-13-2003, 01:24 PM
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I have a roommate who is Chrisitan, strait edge, vegan, and an anarchist. The problem with your family (or anyone making these comments) is not there religion, but there stupidity.
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#4 Old 06-13-2003, 01:38 PM
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You may find this discussion interesting too.



https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...light=religion
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#5 Old 06-13-2003, 01:45 PM
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I am a Christian vegan. I know exactly what you are saying, I here it all the time from people saying that "God put meat on this earth for us to eat and we should eat it. " I agree with that but it is our choice whether or not we should eat meat or not, it is not required of us as Christians.



People also say that God gave us dominion over animals, that does not mean that we should eat them or cause harm to them. Also keep in mind that we were forbidden to eat meat before the flood, and it became okay to consume after that. However, the Bible says in Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.KJV. Man has done so many inhumane things to our meat, dairy, fish, poultry, eggs etc. that God's animal creations has become an unclean thing today, and even though it was clean then... it isn't now. Therefore I refuse for my spirit to dwell in a unclean temple!



I hope that this helps you out! God Bless
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#6 Old 06-13-2003, 01:58 PM
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I don't really want to debate, but whenever I hear someone say that we were meant to eat flesh, I think of Jesus being portrayed as a shepherd protecting the most docile of animals; the sheep. Images don't show him munchin' down on a leg o' lamb. Anyhow, I don't buy into that 'they're here for us to consume so I'm justified' way of thinking. My .02.
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#7 Old 06-13-2003, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cassiel

My family are either Catholic or fundamentalist, and so is my room mate. Their take on veg*nism is that God put animals here for us to eat, so why shouldn't we? My roommate likes to quote that verse (Acts, I think?) which says we shouldn't refuse "any good thing" God has given us to eat.



Where does it say in the bible that animals are included as part of "any good thing?" Fact is, there are many interpretations of the bible, hence, many different religions. And the bible often seems to contradict itself. Then of course, just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. But this is a religious argument, one that has no resolution, due to the very nature of the bible, so give them this:



What Would Jesus Eat... Today

http://www.ivu.org/religion/index.html

http://www.dietforthenewage.com/html/i_timothy_4.html



Also, I highly recommend Matthew Scully's "Dominion."
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#8 Old 06-13-2003, 03:04 PM
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Dominion is excellent reading. Highly recommend.



eta: If you want to quote the bible, explain to me "Thou Shall Not Kill". It doesn't say "Thou Shall Not Kill, but there's an exception if the living being doesn't communicate on the same level as you or is of a different species". Nope..there's a period after Thou Shall Not Kill, as in don't kill anything period . Not that I follow what the bible says to the letter because there are so many omitted parts. Not to mention that it was written by people (mostly men) who interpreted what they believed to be the wishes of God.
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#9 Old 06-13-2003, 03:23 PM
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Cassiel, I found this pleasurable reading. It's refreshing to read from a Christian something that isn't hypocritical :/ That's my biggest issue with Fundamentalists. This is more of the way I always believed Christianity was -- consistent, compassionate; not hypocritical, pro-war. Anyway, I may not agree with or even come to any of the same conclusions on all the issues presented here, but I respect them nontheless. It's a bit long:



http://www.vegdot.org/story/2003/3/2/01111/84810
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#10 Old 06-13-2003, 03:33 PM
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Appreciate all your input, guys. Interestingly, it isn't my Catholic family who gives me the hardest time about this but the fundamentalist camp. They are the ones who are supposedly "bible-believing"...interesting paradox. As far as "thou shalt not kill," from what I've learned, most Jews who read hebrew really translate that as "you shall not murder", which of course leaves the stoning of homosexuals and adulterers WIDE open... Ahem, forgive me - being Christian myself doesn't protect me from at times ridiculing my own religion. However, I think lighthouse25's point about "any good thing" is just what i was looking for. It's what we've done to the "good things" that have made them unclean, which is true of just about anything you care to name. And even if we were put here over the animals, we are HUMANS, which means we have been given a choice - any thing we do consists of choice. The most human thing I can see to do, then, is to choose NOT to eat something just because it is there and God doesn't say explicitly that eating it is not OK.

You know...I'm coming to the conclusion that too many religious people had to trade in their brains to pay for their copy of the Bible...

Anyway, thanks again, this has helped me work out what I can say to at least resolve the issue if not solve the problem.
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#11 Old 06-13-2003, 04:27 PM
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Remember, God put marijuana on earth for us to use, so why shouldn't we?



The bible says "yes you can eat animals" as long as they aren't pigs, camels, rock badgers or any other animal that deuteronomy 14 forbids. But of course, we're under no obligation to do so. People who say that you must eat meat are wrong, since God gave us every plant and every tree (And every herb!) to use, and it would be wrong to say that since God gave us bananas/coriander/marijuana etc then we must use them.



It's like saying "Look, are you going to eat that banana? God gave us bananas to eat, so you should bloody well eat it!! I don't care if you don't like it! You must eat it!"
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#12 Old 06-13-2003, 05:44 PM
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I've done quite a lot of research in thsi area and this is by far the best site that I have found for christianity/animal rights.



http://www.all-creatures.org/



they have a lot of articles that are worth reading
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#13 Old 06-13-2003, 09:21 PM
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Anyone interested in Christianity/ethics and vegetarianism should definitely check out Matthew Scully's book Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy. He was a speech writer for George W. Bush and has written articles for The National Review, The New York Times, etc.



His book deconstructs the various myths surrounding animal welfare from a Christian point of view. It's quite a beautiful book. And as an aside, I am stringently, extremely, radically liberal (politically and religiously), worship Noam Chomsky and was raised in and ultimately rejected Christian fundamentalism. I ain't screwin' around when I say check your preconceived notions and get this book!



I believe there is a review of the book at vegsource done by Natalie Angier, another excellent author who penned the highly recommended book Woman, an Intimate Geography (every man, woman and young adult, feminist or no should read this book).
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#14 Old 06-13-2003, 09:24 PM
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Yes Dominion could be a useful book. Thanks Quizeen now I don't have to write all this
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#15 Old 06-13-2003, 10:06 PM
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To those of you who are interested in discussing Christianity and veg*nism at length with other Christians, check out the Yahoo group ChristianVeg. I've been a part of this for some time now, and it's often thought-provoking and useful.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#16 Old 06-13-2003, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Loki

Remember, God put marijuana on earth for us to use, so why shouldn't we?



Using marijuana doesn't hurt anyone except the person using it (if even...).



Anywho, religion has been used to justify lots of horrible things including racism, war, pedophilia, wife-beating, etc. so it's not surprising that it is also used to justify the imprisonment, torture, mutilation and murder of animals. Anyone who cites the Bible as a credible source of information is not to be taken seriously.
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#17 Old 06-13-2003, 11:16 PM
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And with that last post, off to the Compost Heap we go...
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#18 Old 06-13-2003, 11:22 PM
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You shouldn't let one bad apple spoil the bunch, or in this case one confrontational post spoil a perfectly fine discussion on veg and religion.
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#19 Old 06-19-2003, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peebs

Using marijuana doesn't hurt anyone except the person using it (if even...).



Anywho, religion has been used to justify lots of horrible things including racism, war, pedophilia, wife-beating, etc. so it's not surprising that it is also used to justify the imprisonment, torture, mutilation and murder of animals. Anyone who cites the Bible as a credible source of information is not to be taken seriously.



People seem to want to use the bible to justify all the things they do that are morally wrong in society. Which, if you ask me, society is already down the hole. I haven't seen it used in a lot of ways listed. But I haven't read the bible either..



That being said. People are weird when it comes to their lifestyle. Everyone wants to feel justified with how they live their life. They can twist what it (the bible) says to suit themselves. My point is, everyone is going to justify themselves one way or another. It's that free will coming into play.



I agree with Loki. We don't HAVE to use everything. You wouldn't tell a lactose intolerant person that they MUST drink milk because God gave it to us. It's a stupid argument that is easily shot down.



I'm a Christian Vegan. But as of now I am leaning towards agnosticism, as well. I am not sure where I belong spiritually anymore. I know, in due time, that I will.



*adds "Dominion" to her list of things to read*
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#20 Old 06-19-2003, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FafaFrappy

People seem to want to use the bible to justify all the things they do that are morally wrong in society.



Yeah. They also use the Bible to justify all the morally right things, which is just as wrong IMHO. I'd prefer people doing things because it's morally right, and not because the Bible says so.



I don't know why I'm posting this right now, though.... Just wanted so say *something* I guess. I'm simply happy to see Faf in the Heap...
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#21 Old 06-19-2003, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oatmeal

Yeah. They also use the Bible to justify all the morally right things, which is just as wrong IMHO. I'd prefer people doing things because it's morally right, and not because the Bible says so.



Yeah, I agree with you 100% I adressed it, kinda, when I said,"Everyone wants to feel justified with how they live their life." It was pretty general. But no matter what it is, people seem to need justification for it. Everyone has to feel justified in what they do no matter what it is...



Quote:
Originally posted by Oatmeal



I don't know why I'm posting this right now, though.... Just wanted so say *something* I guess. I'm simply happy to see Faf in the Heap...



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#22 Old 06-19-2003, 08:55 PM
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My friends get into that subject a lot, especially late nights at sleepovers. They're always saying I should eat meat, the Bible doesn't say not to, etc. They always thought of me as a very strong Christian, so some of them insist on bugging me just because they found I'm not.



Anyways, I'll start with how I don't believe animals should have to suffer like this, and I just don't think it's right to eat a dead corpse while we're doing our religion debate. I don't always know how we get into it, but it winds up with me talking about all the animal sacrifices they did back in the old testament, and how such loving people could do such things. They'll say something like but that was thousands of years ago, doesn't matter now. So I do my classic Jesus was thousands of years ago, does that mean he doesn't matter? THe sacrifices did matter to me... a lot. And (correct me if I'm wrong, but) I'd heard that God told us to love all creatures, and that he loves us equally ('cept humans are above), so why do we eat them if we love them?



So, that's how our talks go, and I finally start getting more into the religious discussion, which you don't want to hear about, so I won't say. But... yeah. I don't really know what to tell you. I don't know what to say myself. I just say what I feel.



Kind of rambled up there... sorry.
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#23 Old 06-20-2003, 02:50 PM
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The main problem I have with religion is the amount of 'cafeteria Christians' I see around. They follow the scriptures just so much to find and interpret excerpts that will reinforce their current mindset, and then disregard everything else. Gay-bashing, misogyny, and racism get justified, while the good bits (like the whole 'love thy neighbor' thing) get tossed to the curb.



A lot more people go for Christianity because it allows them to disavow personal responsibility for their actions. The main rule they follow is 'Believe that Jesus is the son of God and you will go to heaven'. Perhaps you've seen the bumper sticker 'Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.' Simply by holding a belief, they feel entitled to do whatever they want.



Quote:
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." (Isaiah 64:6)



While this doesn't preclude people from doing good works, a lot of people interpret it as meaning our good behavior doesn't matter; it's solely the 'believe in Jesus' schtick that gets you past the pearly gates. I think if Christianity put more emphasis on good behavior rather than submission to God, the world would be a much better place.
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#24 Old 06-20-2003, 03:07 PM
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Yikes! Fenguin thanks for the run down on my hypocrisy. I always wonder how I (we) come across to others. That was tough to read. How horrible that good behavior which should be the outcome of submission to God is not seen in that light but seen as something done separate from submission and that we are regarded as "disavowing personal responsibility" by accepting the grace of forgiveness while knowing we will fall again and need that grace yet again. I am so sorry. We should not be that way. But what to do?



Our good behavior does not get us to heaven, only the blood of Jesus can do that, but that fact does not exempt us from so called good works. We are obviously doing something wrong. While Jesus and the Kingdom of heaven are to be my focus, all who the Son of God gave his life for are to be my mission. Not to strong arm but to love you as Jesus did. I see now what a poor job I am doing. Thanks for the heads up. All through history zealots have forgotten the mission and hurt the very people the God of love longs to embrace.
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#25 Old 06-20-2003, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kamila

How horrible that good behaviour should be the outcome of submission to God



I don't understand this at all.
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#26 Old 06-20-2003, 04:48 PM
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Thanks epski; one should never attempt to engage a keyboard while the mind is on the fresh strawberries and soy dream in the kitchen and how good they would taste with the roasted hazelnuts that I know I have. What a load of confusion, I am not sure my edit made it any clearer, perhaps I just muddied the waters even more. At least some of the spelling is less offensive.



I am so sick to my soul of the hurt we believers cause. Jesus would not do that. He is the one who is hurt in all of this. He is the one who has said, "when you do it to one of the least of these my brethren you have done it to me" When I participate in the things Fenguin spoke of (Gay-bashing, racism etc) or even just look the other way, I should consider that I am actually bashing Jesus himself, he stands with them.



I guess I am reacting because of something I heard not long ago (in case I sound like I have stepped outside of sanity--which I strongly suspect). I heard that about 90% of prostitutes come from strict fundamentalist homes. What have we done wrong? It is time to look for the dirt inside the church, inside the heart instead of assuming that it is out side.



Jesus words "Away from me, I never knew you." in response to the religious person defending (her)self by reciting all she has done for the Lord haunt me.
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#27 Old 06-20-2003, 05:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Kamila


How horrible that good behaviour should be the outcome of submission to God



Quote:
Originally posted by epski

I don't understand this at all.



I think the implied meaning is that one should have good behaviour regardless of gods existance and not because of it.
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#28 Old 06-20-2003, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by majake



I think the implied meaning is that one should have good behaviour regardless of gods existance and not because of it.



Interesting. I don't get that out of that quote at all. Weird.
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#29 Old 06-20-2003, 05:42 PM
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well, i could be wrong. :shrugs:
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#30 Old 06-22-2003, 11:14 AM
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i've been a Christian all my life, and the more i see of the world, the more i am convinced of my beliefs. the only reason we ate meat in the first place was because of sin. i don't think God had planned for us to have to kill and eat his creatures. i come from a branch of Christianity (seventh day adventism) where vegetarianism and veganism are fairly common for health reasons. God called our bodies "temples" and it is a sin to defile them with things that will hurt them. altough i bear that in mind, personally animal rights was my biggest push towards being a vegetarian.

of course, being a Christian, i completely defend the love of God, and i agree with epski, that really doesn't make sense to me. my motivation to do good isn't because i feel "watched" it's because i happen to know someone who sees a much bigger picture than me, and they have given me advice on how to get the most out of life. of course i'd listen.

personally, and i really don't mean to sound abrasive about this, but i really have a soapbox about people who think Christians are mind controlled. i don't have a herd mentality about it at all, in fact, it forces an individualism that few other things do. the world is full of nonconformists, and the more shocking and blatantly defiant you are, the more careful people are not to offend you. but i've found that people will walk all over someone who is adhering to what God said, probably because He instructs us not to lash back. i am certainly not bitter or reigned in because of my faith, and i genuinely wish that everyone could expierence the kind of happiness it has brought me. when you have God, you're never completely alone. but as with everything, i know that, as right as i think that i am, there are people that feel that they are equally as right. i respect their desicions completely, though i don't understand it. if i wanted everyone to be in agreement with this, i would find a Christian chat room.
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