Biological children--a seeming addiction - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-16-2005, 05:43 AM
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The thread on how many children may actually not be biologically related to their fathers got me thinking. This is about adoption though, so not exactly the same thing...



I am endlessly annoyed (as is my friend, a huge adoption advocate) by people who, instead of saying "biological children," say "my own children." ANY child you have will be your own. Say biological, you ***holes.



Also, people just consider adoption the last resort, if you can't have biological children. People waste thousands of dollars on fertility treatments. Well I just gotta say--these people are morons, plain and simple. It's amazing how much energy and money people will waste in the name of having their biological child--as though that child were inherently smarter, better, or more worthy. Meanwhile, the money wasted by these idiots--I wonder how many living, breathing children that money could feed? Ah well.



To those who revere their biological (real or imagined) children like gods, you are scum. Especially if you waste thousands of dollars on something that may never happen.



So, why do people think of adoption as something you do in desperation? Why do people typically have the attitude that it's better to impregnante someone or squeeze something out from betwixt your legs?



Curious.



ETA: People who, for legal reasons (having been convicted of a crime) cannot adopt are exempt from my seething contempt.
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#2 Old 08-16-2005, 05:51 AM
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Oh, one more thing I forgot to add. Since this world already has wayyyyy too many people, it doesn't make sense to keep having more.
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#3 Old 08-16-2005, 06:08 AM
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You make some quite good threads but I'm reluctant to join in with my opinion because I'm sick of you refering to people as idiots, *******s, scum and morons. I'm putting you on ignore until you can learn how to present your opinion about the things that annoy you without insulting everyone all the time.
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#4 Old 08-16-2005, 06:09 AM
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Calling people who want to reproduce morons and idiots is not exactly a good way of starting this debate...



eta: heh, double post
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#5 Old 08-16-2005, 06:23 AM
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Ooh! I know, I know!



See, I learned about this thing in school we call instincts. Despite what people like to believe, we live by them just like everything else on the planet.



And that is why more people prefer biological children.
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#6 Old 08-16-2005, 06:28 AM
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I'm with the others...I actually think this is a good debate thread. But until we all understand that people have different beliefs about things, and that having different opinions doesn't absolutely qualify them as morons and idiots...it's kind of foolish to get involved in this debate.



My sister went through the very painful problem of not being able to have a child with her husband. I think it's easy for women who can reproduce to say, "Ah, just get over it, adopt." But for my sister it was a really sad and painful experience. They eventually did become foster parents and are in the process of adopting a wonderful little girl. But in no universe to I think my sister was an idiot for wanting her own baby. My sister was ready to throw in the towel on trying to have her own a VERY long time before her husband was...this is a difficult decision to make.



It's human nature (IMO) to want babies...to want family. This is okay, this is not a bad thing. I wouldn't be without my 'biological' daughter. My sister wouldn't be without her soon to be adopted daughter.



It's hard to know what to say to you sometimes, as you seem to want to judge and hate people for making choices with their lives that you disagree with. That seems to me to take up a lot of energy that could go towards more productive endeavors.
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#7 Old 08-16-2005, 06:29 AM
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Ah, I was going to say instincts as well, but I didn't want to get reemed by the women on the board for whom having a baby isn't instinctual. It isn't to everyone.



B
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#8 Old 08-16-2005, 06:30 AM
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It's human nature (IMO) to want babies...to want family.



See? Instinct.
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#9 Old 08-16-2005, 06:31 AM
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lol - instincts aren't equal throughout everyone. Just like some non-human animals tend not to act as much on raw instinct - like prey animals learning to live near or with people.
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#10 Old 08-16-2005, 06:37 AM
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Well, for many people, it's been expected for, well, forever that women would have babies. It's something that people do, and if everyone stopped doing it, we'd be a little screwed.



I'm all for adoption. There are many, many children out there who need to be adopted, or at the very least need a foster home to stay at until they can be. I also do think that it would help if more people considered adoption when faced with infertility, or even possible infertility.



At the same time, since it's still expected of us women to have babies, it's hard to pull away from that. Just as it's "different" to be vegetarian, it's "different" in most North American societies for a woman to not want to have a baby, or to not even want to be a parent at all. Being different doesn't occur to most people as a viable option; to many, different is scary, bad, wrong, or not even considered.



Any child that you raise or care for is your own. Even if it also happens to be furry and has whiskers.
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#11 Old 08-16-2005, 06:41 AM
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I agree that it's very sad that people will spend tons of money for fertility treatments when there are children waiting to be adopted. I would never do that.



But isn't there a curiosity about what a biological child of you and your significant other would be like? Kind of a charm of a little person who has half of your genes and half of your sweetie's?
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#12 Old 08-16-2005, 06:43 AM
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People want biological children because it's pretty much the purpose of animal life to pass on their genetics to the next generation. A lot of people want to see their genetics reflected in their children and their children's children.

While agree that more people should consider adoption before engaging in costly fertility treatments, I will never make a moral judgement about the rightness or wrongness of people trying to create a family. And so what if fertility treatments are costly? Adoption's pretty darn costly too! My mom tried to adopt after she found out her second husband was sterile but was unable to afford it although she would have been comfortably able to support a second child. If a woman/a couple has access to the money, she's just as entitled to spend it trying to get preganant as she is on any on any other expense.
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#13 Old 08-16-2005, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Elena99 View Post

...it's still expected of us women to have babies.



I think it's expected of women to want children, biological or not. I don't think giving birth to them personally is the main factor here. It's the women who don't want to raise children who are considered odd, in my experience.
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#14 Old 08-16-2005, 06:51 AM
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Adoption still isn't part of our acceptable social memes. Being adopted is still a stigma for some people "Not the "real child" of her parents!" It is instinctive to want to reproduce, but for humans, memes - ideas propagated by culture - are often much stronger even than instinct, so strong that we believe they are instinct. Memes can be changed, but it takes a long time, usually centuries.
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#15 Old 08-16-2005, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ludi View Post

Adoption still isn't part of our acceptable social memes. Being adopted is still a stigma for some people "Not the "real child" of her parents!" It is instinctive to want to reproduce, but for humans, memes - ideas propagated by culture - are often much stronger even than instinct, so strong that we believe they are instinct. Memes can be changed, but it takes a long time, usually centuries.



True, but somehow I expect that breeding is a real instinct. Unless we are the only species not to reproduce asexually that is without this instinct.
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#16 Old 08-16-2005, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MnVeggie View Post

I think it's expected of women to want children, biological or not. I don't think giving birth to them personally is the main factor here. It's the women who don't want to raise children who are considered odd, in my experience.



i disagree: it is very much expected of women to want to physically birth the child.



when i tell people if i ever have children, i would adopt them b/c i think it is the socially responsible thing to do (besides not wanting to physically have children) they generally are like: you don't want children? what's wrong with you?



anyway, i agree that it is a great waste of time and money, not to mention usually physically destructive to undergo fertility treatments i understand we live in a society that is entrenched with the belief that women should have children physically and that adopted children are second class. which means, i do not think people who undergo IVF and the like are "idiots". i don't understand why they do what they do, but that doesn't make them stupid. it probably just makes me stupid for not understanding better.
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#17 Old 08-16-2005, 06:56 AM
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I want babies because I feel the urge to have a child. I guess thats why its called a biological clock. Call me all the names you want, if I'm able to have them, I will. ;-)



My husband and I plan to have two children, and adopt a third. That would amount to zero population growth while still allowing us to have a bigish family.
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#18 Old 08-16-2005, 07:15 AM
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True, but somehow I expect that breeding is a real instinct. Unless we are the only species not to reproduce asexually that is without this instinct.





Sorry I was unclear, yes I agree wanting to reproduce is instinctive for humans.
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#19 Old 08-16-2005, 07:18 AM
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To those who revere their biological (real or imagined) children like gods, you are scum.



I suggest you print out your post and re-read it in about 10 years time when you've grown up a bit (although there is a chance you may not grow up).



I reckon some people want biological kids in the hope that they will not adopt someone who has genes like yours (it surely has to be genes that make you so rude and off-putting - I can't believe someone would actually CHOOSE to come off as so uncultured and uncouth and chimpanzee-like.)
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#20 Old 08-16-2005, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bstutzma View Post

I want babies because I feel the urge to have a child. I guess thats why its called a biological clock. Call me all the names you want, if I'm able to have them, I will. ;-)



My husband and I plan to have two children, and adopt a third. That would amount to zero population growth while still allowing us to have a bigish family.



I have an urge to eat a big juicy steak, so I'll go eat one for lunch!



Having an urge isn't sufficient reason for doing something, in my opinion. Especially if there are other reasons not to do it. Risking passing along a disorder may be one of those reasons not to have biological children.
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#21 Old 08-16-2005, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ludi View Post

I have an urge to eat a big juicy steak, so I'll go eat one for lunch!



Having an urge isn't sufficient reason for doing something, in my opinion. Especially if there are other reasons not to do it. Risking passing along a disorder may be one of those reasons not to have biological children.



I don't ever have an urge for a big juicy steak. I do have the desire to have children, from a biological standpoint. Apparently someone does not have a biological clock ticking.



Luckily, I do not have any disorders so insurmountable as to merit considering not having children, so this is not a problem for me. But my husband is legally blind (without his glasses.) Should we not have kids so as not to pass down his bad vision? You're treading on a sticky line of eugenics when you're talking like this.
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#22 Old 08-16-2005, 08:01 AM
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What is a "sufficient reason" (in general)? Reasons are only what you want them to be.
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#23 Old 08-16-2005, 08:08 AM
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People who do not understand the desire to have one's own child ---- ooops!!!! Sorry - not being politically correct here, I mean "biological" child - have obviously never experienced the miracle of pregnancy and giving birth. The feeling is indescribable...



I could almost feel pity for people who so lack in empathy that they are unable to understand this. They seem to have great bitterness in their hearts and an underlying lack of something (maybe affection? maybe they feel unloved by one or more of their "biological" parents?).
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#24 Old 08-16-2005, 08:11 AM
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Maybe people should all have cybernetic children instead - no more need for reproduction.
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#25 Old 08-16-2005, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

People who do not understand the desire to have one's own child ---- ooops!!!! Sorry - not being politically correct here, I mean "biological" child - have obviously never experienced the miracle of pregnancy and giving birth. The feeling is indescribable...



I could almost feel pity for people who so lack in empathy that they are unable to understand this. They seem to have great bitterness in their hearts and an underlying lack of something (maybe affection? maybe they feel unloved by one of more of their "biological" parents?).





Yes, if people don't want exactly the same thing as you, they must be bitter and unloved.
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#26 Old 08-16-2005, 08:17 AM
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MP - Some parents that state a person that has never given birth to a child cannot possibly understand what it's like (and they are probably right). Conincidently, unless you've been told that there is no chance under the sun you will ever be able to conceive via traditional means (i.e. intercourse) or anyother means for that matter, there is no way you can ever know what it's like to want to conceive and go through the whole 9 month experience and have that ripped from you. It's very insensitive to call these people who spend money tyring to conceive names like you have. You can't possibly relate to this situation.



I wasn't going to post because I think your approach stinks and has some other motive based on the agressiveness. I would have an intelligent conversation on the very subject of alternative conception method and adoption because I've done a ton of research on the subjects. But I'm put off by the name calling in your first post. :shrugs: So you loose out again.



I keep asking myself why I come back here :shakeshead:
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#27 Old 08-16-2005, 08:18 AM
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Answer to MnVeggie: No, I do not think that everyone wants a child. This is not abnormal. I don't think it's unnatural not to want a child. It's a very personal thing.



What I don't get is how anyone can be so angry at people who do... and the only reason I can find is some kind of bitterness which must stem from something... and as the scorn seems to be directed at people who want to have their own kids, then my conclusion is that the problem may very likely stem from their childhood.
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#28 Old 08-16-2005, 08:30 AM
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I just wanted to pipe in that people like me who do not want biological children are often viewed as freaks, selfish, etc. You can't win.



To sort of quote someone who I wub



"I am not defined by what my vagina has or has not expelled"







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#29 Old 08-16-2005, 08:30 AM
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The thread on how many children may actually not be biologically related to their fathers got me thinking. This is about adoption though, so not exactly the same thing...



I am endlessly annoyed (as is my friend, a huge adoption advocate) by people who, instead of saying "biological children," say "my own children." ANY child you have will be your own. Say biological, you ***holes.



They can call their own kids whatever they want.



. People waste thousands of dollars on fertility treatments. Well I just gotta say--these people are morons, plain and simple. It's amazing how much energy and money people will waste in the name of having their biological child--as though that child were inherently smarter, better, or more worthy. Meanwhile, the money wasted by these idiots--I wonder how many living, breathing children that money could feed?



Once more, their money, they decide what to do with it. If you want the governemnt telling you exactly how to spend your money, then maybe this would be sensible (re-distribution of wealth to the needy) but that would open up an even bigger can of worms.



To those who revere their biological (real or imagined) children like gods, you are scum.







Very angry post. . .
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#30 Old 08-16-2005, 08:31 AM
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I just wanted to pipe in that people like me who do not want biological children are often viewed as freaks, selfish, etc. You can't win.

That is a good point and a somewhat troubling aspect of society.
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