Socialism - VeggieBoards
View Poll Results: Socialism?
I'm a Socialist! 4 57.14%
I lean towards Socialism. 0 0%
Eek! I'm not really sure. / I need to read more about it. 0 0%
I lean towards Capitalism. 2 28.57%
I like Capitalism better! 0 0%
I like another form of government better! 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 06-24-2005, 03:11 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
I've been reading about Socialism and Communism for awhile now. I know the terms are scary to some, as many of us were raised to fear the USSR and other countries that labeled their government Communist, but after reading about it and coming to understand what it means to be Communist, I won't hide that I agree with it entirely. Now, by labeling myself as a Socialist/Communist, it should go without saying that I don't agree with everything that has happened in the name of Communism.



Some quotes from U.S. history-
Quote:
"(Article) 16. That an enormous Proportion of Property vested in a few Individuals is dangerous to the Rights, and destructive of the Common Happiness, of Mankind; and therefore every free State hath a Right by its laws to discourage the Possession of such Property."



- Ben Franklins first draft of the Pennsylvania's Declaration of Rights, written in 1776. It was rejected by the Assembly.



"In your letter to Fisk, you have fairly stated the alternatives between we must chose: 1, licentious commerce and gambling speculations for a few, with eternal war for many; or, 2, restricted commerce, peace and steady occupations for all."



- Thomas Jefferson



"It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war."



- President Lincoln, and also this:



"And inasmuch as most good things are produced by labor, it follows that all such things of right belong to those whose labor produced them. But it has so happened, in all ages of the world, that some have labored, and others have without labor enjoyed a large portion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To secure to each laborer the whole product of his labor, or as nearly as possible, is a worthy object of any good government"

The I.W.W. labor union has always held that labor is entitled to all it creates. I can't agree more! Here's their mission statement:

Quote:
The Mission Statement of the Industrial Workers of the World



The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life.



Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth.



We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers.



These conditions can be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all.



Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."



It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old.

There was a time when that mission statement sounded extreme and radical to me, but upon further learning, it's come to be my common sense.



I really started this thread just for the poll, cause I'm curious. I figured I throw in some history too.



Discuss!
Walter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 06-24-2005, 03:15 PM
Banned
 
Tame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,022
Common sense? Uh, okay. You accept that the "working class" has a historic mission as common sense? And that wages need to go bye-bye? Okey-dokey.
Tame is offline  
#3 Old 06-24-2005, 03:17 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tame View Post

You accept that the "working class" has a historic mission as common sense? And that wages need to go bye-bye?

Absolutely!
Walter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 06-24-2005, 03:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Now let's keep this nice and clean, Tame. I just spent the day at the beach and I've had enough mud for today.
Walter is offline  
#5 Old 06-24-2005, 03:19 PM
Banned
 
Tame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,022
I won't even bother to go there with you, as I find your basic premise faulty.
Tame is offline  
#6 Old 06-24-2005, 03:20 PM
Banned
 
remilard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,772
I favor private ownership of the means of production, in most cases. I favor a market economy with somewhat heavy government regulation. That being said, I prefer active means of redistributing income and wealth that are not unlike those practiced in some Western European countries and often referred to as socialism. To that extent I am socialist. In my opinion, capitalism distributes wealth bimodally (it is exactly that simple but we can assume it is, I think for the sake of this discussion). I feel that, in general, the people with more wealth deserve to have more wealth but that the gap between the wealthiest and the least wealthy is too large. I favor policies that redistribute wealth and income in such a fashion that they are no longer distributed bimodally but that order is preserved. IE the wealthiest people are still the wealthiest people but they are less wealthy, the least wealthy (at this end of the spectrum it makes more sense to talk about income, since so many people have no wealth) still have the lowest incomes and wealth but have higher income than before, and the true middle class (i.e. people who can afford property, a comforatable lifestyle, and financial security in the place where the work) becomes more dominant.
remilard is offline  
#7 Old 06-24-2005, 03:25 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tame View Post

I won't even bother to go there with you, as I find your basic premise faulty.

What do you think is my premise (coming as close to equality and democracy as possible is what I consider it to be) and why do you think it's faulty?
Walter is offline  
#8 Old 06-24-2005, 03:31 PM
Veggie Regular
 
ebola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,590
y'all know me.

Still the same ole' G.
ebola is offline  
#9 Old 06-24-2005, 03:40 PM
Veggie Regular
 
GOPVeggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 620
and y'all know me

Socialism, Communism, and the American Democratic party have few differences IMO.
GOPVeggie is offline  
#10 Old 06-24-2005, 04:34 PM
Veggie Regular
 
catswym's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOPVeggie View Post


Socialism, Communism, and the American Democratic party have few differences IMO.



if only that were true, and i could be a "democrat" again.



i'm a socialist, loud and proud. i would say that it "just makes sense" to me too. but i have no desire to debate the matter, just chiming in.
catswym is offline  
#11 Old 06-24-2005, 06:09 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOPVeggie View Post

Socialism, Communism, and the American Democratic party have few differences IMO.

If only that were the case! In my opinion, and this is taking the thread offtopic, I think the Democratic party does just enough for laborers to get their votes just as the Republican party does just enough for Christians to get their votes, but both serve their corporate masters first and foremost.
Walter is offline  
#12 Old 06-24-2005, 06:14 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
How very true, comrade mikie.
GhostUser is offline  
#13 Old 06-24-2005, 07:32 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Ive killed commies.
GhostUser is offline  
#14 Old 06-24-2005, 07:53 PM
Veggie Regular
 
ebola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,590
Please don't shoot me.
ebola is offline  
#15 Old 06-24-2005, 07:55 PM
Banned
 
remilard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebola View Post

Please don't shoot me.



You do not covet the role of the martyr?
remilard is offline  
#16 Old 06-24-2005, 08:00 PM
Veggie Regular
 
JLRodgers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,819
Hmm... technically... my political boliefs probably go to a "humanistic environmental socialist"... something that for the most part doesn't really exist
JLRodgers is offline  
#17 Old 06-24-2005, 08:57 PM
Banned
 
astro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,774
<---- leans towards socialism.
astro is offline  
#18 Old 06-25-2005, 12:00 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhadragon View Post

Ive killed commies.

And, uh... what sort of responses are you fishing for?
Walter is offline  
#19 Old 06-25-2005, 12:21 AM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikie View Post

And, uh... what sort of responses are you fishing for?

None from you.
GhostUser is offline  
#20 Old 06-25-2005, 12:46 AM
 
IamJen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,134
<<checks briefly to see who is the OP of the thread.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
IamJen is offline  
#21 Old 06-25-2005, 12:51 AM
Veggie Regular
 
MollyGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,159
I picked "lean towards socialism."



I WISH the dems were more socialist. And also, socialism and communism are not the same.
MollyGoat is offline  
#22 Old 06-25-2005, 01:02 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyGoat View Post

And also, socialism and communism are not the same.

No, but they're certainly related. Historically, Socialism is viewed as the stepping stone inbetween Capitalism and Communism. It seems odd to me to call oneself a communist when we haven't even achieved Socialism yet.
Walter is offline  
#23 Old 06-25-2005, 01:34 AM
Veggie Regular
 
kpickell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 16,090
I definetely don't trust the government enough to be a socialist. Perhaps in a perfect world Socialism would be nice, but once corruption enters into the question (which is inevitible) then socialism turns into a monster.
kpickell is offline  
#24 Old 06-25-2005, 02:57 AM
Veggie Regular
 
ebola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,590
>>And also, socialism and communism are not the same.>>



socialism is to communism as vegatarianism (or veg*anism) is to veganism.



>>I definetely don't trust the government enough to be a socialist. Perhaps in a perfect world Socialism would be nice, but once corruption enters into the question (which is inevitible) then socialism turns into a monster.>>



Socialism needn't involve the state. Communism is necessarily stateless.



ebola
ebola is offline  
#25 Old 06-25-2005, 04:36 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,934
"None of the above"



I don't subscribe to any kind of "government" except personal responsibility and interpersonal mutually beneficial relationships.
Ludi is offline  
#26 Old 06-25-2005, 05:08 AM
Veggie Regular
 
kpickell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 16,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebola View Post

>>I definetely don't trust the government enough to be a socialist. Perhaps in a perfect world Socialism would be nice, but once corruption enters into the question (which is inevitible) then socialism turns into a monster.>>



Socialism needn't involve the state. Communism is necessarily stateless.



ebola



I wasn't talking about socialist anarchy in my comment, and I'm not even aware of a communist country that doesn't have government leaders.
kpickell is offline  
#27 Old 06-25-2005, 08:55 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Satyagraha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJen View Post

<<checks briefly to see who is the OP of the thread.



Yes you have power over what everyone is this thread says, get over it. You shouldn't have that power.



Anarchist here.
Satyagraha is offline  
#28 Old 06-25-2005, 09:34 AM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikie View Post

No, but they're certainly related. Historically, Socialism is viewed as the stepping stone inbetween Capitalism and Communism. It seems odd to me to call oneself a communist when we haven't even achieved Socialism yet.



What the... Why is that odd? You're right that in marxism-leninism, socialism is a transitional stage between capitalism and communism. Democratic socialists, reformists, are commonly refered to as socialists to distinguish them from communists. That's where the confusion of the terms stems from. Communists are socialists, but a socialist is not necessarily a communist.
GhostUser is offline  
#29 Old 06-25-2005, 09:37 AM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikie View Post

No, but they're certainly related. Historically, Socialism is viewed as the stepping stone inbetween Capitalism and Communism. It seems odd to me to call oneself a communist when we haven't even achieved Socialism yet.



What the... Why is that odd? You're right that in marxism-leninism, socialism is a transitional stage between capitalism and communism. Democratic socialists, reformists, are commonly refered to as socialists to distinguish them from communists. That's where the confusion of the terms stems from. Communists are socialists, but a socialist is not necessarily a communist.
GhostUser is offline  
#30 Old 06-25-2005, 09:56 AM
Veggie Regular
 
kpickell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 16,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyagraha View Post

Yes you have power over what everyone is this thread says, get over it. You shouldn't have that power.



Anarchist here.

Well that was rude and uncalled for. I shouldn't be surprised.
kpickell is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off