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#1 Old 06-01-2005, 12:17 PM
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It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said Thou shall not kill. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.



http://www.evilbible.com/



This site studies the bible for all the appalling stuff that God either did Himself, or ordered others to do. Thoughts?







The Rev
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#2 Old 06-01-2005, 12:52 PM
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Nietzsche said "god is dead".



perhaps he was onto something....



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Originally Posted by The Rev View Post

http://www.evilbible.com/



This site studies the bible for all the appalling stuff that God either did Himself, or ordered others to do. Thoughts?







The Rev

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#3 Old 06-01-2005, 12:54 PM
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Well, if God is omnibenevolent, then none of those acts were actually evil. They may seem evil to some people, but as god is omniscient, I guess he pretty much has the final say on whose point of view is right. And I'm sure he'd use his omnipotent powers to zap anyone who'd care to disagree. And that zapping would be a benevolent form of zapping. So it all works out in the end.



Or, you can put the blinders on like most people do and instead of saying "that's pretty f'd up," you can calmly say that "God works in mysterious ways."
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#4 Old 06-01-2005, 01:33 PM
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I don't know what to think of God. I don't even know if he or she exists, and if there is a God, I think the information we have about him or her will be incorrect, to some degree, and even then, that's only scratching the surface.
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#5 Old 06-01-2005, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by veganinohio View Post

Or, you can put the blinders on like most people do and instead of saying "that's pretty f'd up," you can calmly say that "God works in mysterious ways."



Or my mom's favorite: "That's just something I'll have to ask God about when I get to Heaven."



Those passages quoted are exactly the reason that I began to question my Christianity, and why I eventually came to the conclusion that I don't believe the Bible is 100% true (or if it is, I don't choose to worship THAT God).
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#6 Old 06-01-2005, 03:49 PM
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Those things aren't really in the bible are they
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#7 Old 06-01-2005, 04:46 PM
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Yeah. I used to sit in church and read the Old Testament.

There are a lot of gory stories in there.
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#8 Old 06-01-2005, 04:51 PM
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Some churches say that the old testiment is actually useless as far as the bible in concerned. Everything in there is pre-Jesus, therefore it had to be done to save people. The only stuff that matters is after his death, for then everything is good.



There are many passages in the bible that I've seen "overlooked" by ministers, all depending on what they teach. If it's that god is loving and caring, they're omitted. If it's that god is vengeful, they're preached... if it's that god is both good and evil, but it's both good since god cannot be evil, then it's both done.
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#9 Old 06-01-2005, 05:51 PM
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Personally, I'm a big fan of the way fundamentalists will pick and choose those verses in Leviticus that condemn homosexuality, but manage to ignore the verses in the same book that say uppity children should be smitten...

Nec Aspera Terrent
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#10 Old 06-01-2005, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by veganinohio View Post

Or, you can put the blinders on like most people do and instead of saying "that's pretty f'd up," you can calmly say that "God works in mysterious ways."



I have to admit that's one of my all-time favourite religious cliches
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#11 Old 06-03-2005, 05:11 AM
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This website is awesome. I like the top ten list the best!
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#12 Old 06-03-2005, 05:26 AM
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Well, I choose not to believe anything manmade as the all holy truth. I'm always amused by people who do and their reactions to gory stuff in the bible.



When I quoted one particular icky action of God my aunt said something like "Everything God does is right." Meanwhile my uncle yelled out in the background "God did that? That's just F'd up, man."
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#13 Old 06-03-2005, 08:02 AM
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Those things aren't really in the bible are they









The OT God is a very unpleasant character.
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#14 Old 06-03-2005, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiggzie View Post

When I quoted one particular icky action of God my aunt said something like "Everything God does is right." Meanwhile my uncle yelled out in the background "God did that? That's just F'd up, man."







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#15 Old 06-03-2005, 09:07 AM
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The OT God is a very unpleasant character.



At least he's not a leftist hippy like the NT one.
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#16 Old 06-03-2005, 10:00 AM
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What is OT and NT God?
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#17 Old 06-03-2005, 10:47 AM
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What is OT and NT God?



Old Testament and New Testament.



Ohio, I do think it's funny how so many conservatives love Jesus yet hate long hair on men. Doesn't make sense to me.







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#18 Old 06-03-2005, 11:48 AM
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Old Testament and New Testament.



Ohio, I do think it's funny how so many conservatives love Jesus yet hate long hair on men. Doesn't make sense to me.







The Rev



Why is Jesus always portrayed as having long hair? Many of the gods in classical paintings and sculptures are shown with long hair, so I'm guessing it comes from the same place. Long hair equals power? Is it to make him look more feminine (motherly)? something else?



Was it truly in fashion in that region during that time for men to wear their hair that long? (not that it has to be accurate, as the light skinned, blue eyed Jesus that adorns many churches is obviously inaccurate). Interesting topic, though.
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#19 Old 06-03-2005, 02:20 PM
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I just figured that most men (women too really) would have long hair and beards -- mainly since shavers probably dind't exist back then & that it would offer more protection from the elements to an extent (although not sure about the dessert stuff....)
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#20 Old 06-03-2005, 04:07 PM
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A lot of people on a secular forum I visit started their transition from strong religiousness toward skepticism when they really started studying the Bible. I would like to someday really read and study the Bible since I live in a country made mostly of Christians. I'd use skeptic commentaries as well as those from other pov. I don't know many people who have really read the whole thing. I have two King James, a Living Bible, a picture Bible (this is good for just learning the stories), and a New Testament which give 4 different translations on the same page. Pretty useful.



Here are some links to sources for researching and studying the Bible

http://www.infidels.org/desk.html#christianity (includes religious and skeptic links)

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...riticism.shtml

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../errancy.shtml





I wonder how many people have really studied the divine works of their own professed religion.
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#21 Old 06-03-2005, 04:38 PM
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I started to read the Bible.



I didn't get past Genesis without realizing that ...well... most of what I've heard Christians say is contrary to what's right there in the first few chapters.



I went ahead and read a good whack of it anyway, just out of curiosity. I read the "plain english" NKJ version side-by-side with the regular King James, and also read most of the Apocrypha (the "missing" books of the Bible that the Catholics authorized), a good slice of the Qur'an, and intended to read the Torah too but just plain ran out of steam.



Some of it was good, sensible stuff for getting on in society. A lot of it seemed outdated or superstitious to me. And some of it was downright violent, disgusting, and repellant.



None of it struck me as "The Truth". *shrug* To each their own, I say. I believe in some pretty "out there" stuff too, so you won't hear me getting too critical of Christians, hehe.
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#23 Old 06-03-2005, 04:40 PM
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I had a class in college that was (official or unoficially title... can't remember) Critical analyzation of the Bible...



There were atheists, christians, and other religions there (but mainly christians, then atheists). One of the girls in the class was extremely religious, saved herself for marriage, didn't cuss, etc, basically what's considered the stereotypical or idea christian.



One day in class, after reading the bible for the first time (well, on a "hey, it's ok to question!" reading, not a "you can read, but if you question, you're going to hell" reading like she was taught prior -- she made a point at the beggining of class, as did others, that it was taught to them that questioning the bible was blasphemous)... anyway.... she screamed "it's a lie, it's all a lie!" and ran out in tears. Didn't show up for classes in a while... the next week she was (literally) making out and having sex in a stairwell on the way to class, wearing clothing considered "slutish".



As the teacher said at the beginning of class, after it, it'll reinforce your opinions either for or aginst the bible, or, it'll change your opinion on it.



Her case was a huge shock to the class and the teacher (he actually was asking her questions the day that she ran out), and not common, but as a whole, the number of people thinking that the bible was true, without a doubt, was a lot less after the class than before it (many still believed in it, but as a neat collection of stories).



The reasoning that the professor had was simply that most of the people he encountered, had the bible, but never read it, and those that did, never thought of questioning it or anything like that. Along with the fact that many of the people in the class bought a Catholic bible, over the ones they had -- because not all of them had the same words, phrases, etc in the same places. And there were some instances (Genesis I believe...) that the stories were different, or had phrasing that gave opposite intrepretations. The professor himself actually believed in the bible, and was Catholic, so it's not like it was an atheist teaching or trying to "convert" people.
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#24 Old 06-05-2005, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post

Nietzsche said "god is dead".



perhaps he was onto something....

I read that Nietzsche finished his life in an asylum, all but brain dead. I guess his beliefs didn't work for him.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#25 Old 06-05-2005, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rev View Post

http://www.evilbible.com/



This site studies the bible for all the appalling stuff that God either did Himself, or ordered others to do. Thoughts?







The Rev

Stop looking for easy answers. There's a new bible, delivered to earth in 1882. It's called Oahspe. It's pretty cool.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#26 Old 06-05-2005, 01:59 AM
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coop, instead of calling them the 'apocrypha,' call them 'deutero-canonicals.'



the reasons are this, the origin of the term comes from middle english and means 'not authentic.' this is not the case of these texts, as they are authentic jewish texts, written in greek (the international language) by diasporic jews.



they are often not accepted in the protestant canon because they are not part of the primary jewish canon, which favored texts written in hebrew. yet, when the jewish canon was formed (after the catholic canon that included that duetero-canonicals), they did not 'disown' the duetero-canonicals, but simply explained that they were not included in the cannon because they were not written in hebrew. They were considered important jewish texts, but not necessarily 'representative' of judaism--with it's msot common representation being it's special language, hebrew.



the term 'apocrypha' implies that these texts are 'spurious' or somehow dangerous or false to those who would read the bible and consider the bible as the only infallable word of God. this is simply not the case. the books were canonized by committee--and there are many canons beyond the most noteable (catholic/vulgate and jewish/protestant) such as the ethiopian canon which has over 150 books and the Maronite Canon which has 90-some-odd. These canons are considered acceptable christian canons that can be used by individuals within these regional communities or by any christians.



to call the books apocrypha or apocryphal is to really consider them 'nonviable' as wisdom texts and downplay their importance in both history and the canon.
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#27 Old 06-05-2005, 07:41 AM
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I read that Nietzsche finished his life in an asylum, all but brain dead. I guess his beliefs didn't work for him.

Lots of people lose most of their capacity in old age. Even God-fearing Christians. Did their beliefs fail them, too? BTW, Nietsche's statement that "God is dead" was not about his beliefs. When you take a slogan like that out of context, you're not saying anything at all.



That's what is great about this website - it takes passages out of context and manipulates the language of and even completely misquotes the Bible to make its own point. This isn't new, of course. Lots of major sacred texts are misinterpreted to promote someone's personal agenda. It's silly. For example, the first "argument" made on the homepage of that website is that



Quote:
It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said Thou shall not kill.

What amazes me is how many times this commandemnt is misimterpreted. The accurate translation of the original text is "Thou shalt not murder".
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#28 Old 06-05-2005, 09:52 AM
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I looked at the pictures in a bible once. A truly boring experience.
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#29 Old 06-05-2005, 10:39 AM
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What amazes me is how many times this commandemnt is misimterpreted. The accurate translation of the original text is "Thou shalt not murder".





That would make it bad for people , since that's how it's phrased in bibles at my house (well, some...). One of the bibles I picked up at random doesn't even have a "do not kill" clause... it has a "do not work or do anything on the sabboth" clause.
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#30 Old 06-05-2005, 04:45 PM
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... the number of people thinking that the bible was true, without a doubt, was a lot less after the class than before it (many still believed in it, but as a neat collection of stories).



That's an interesting story, JLR. My best friend was a religious studies major in uni and she took a similar class -- actually two. She took one called "the bible as myth" which approached biblical stories as one would approach the greek/roman god(dess) stories. She also took a 'critique of the bible' class similar to the one you mention. And loved it. she's an ex-catholic btw.



I took a course on the NT years ago in uni as one of my GE's and thought it was interesting. One of the things I recall is looking over multiple translations of key verses. The translations were taken from different languages (and put into english) as well as different time periods and sects of christianity.



It was absolutely amazing, the breadth of differences. One key element I remember is that in hebrew (I think?) the word used to describe mary could have been translated to either "young woman" or "virgin" (because we know they're one in the same hahahhahaha). differences in translation can mean a world of difference.



ETA: FWIW, I do see the bible as a collection of well-embellished historical events.
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